no replacement for displacement????

I have been talking to a few different people about forced induction stuff. Have been told, by almost all of them, that the "no replacement for displacement" does not apply to forced induction. One individidual went as far as saying that with the proper tuning a small block will put out the same numbers as a big block....any opinions????

I have been talking to a few different people about forced induction stuff. Have been told, by almost all of them, that the "no replacement for displacement" does not apply to forced induction. One individidual went as far as saying that with the proper tuning a small block will put out the same numbers as a big block....any opinions????


That use to be the norm., power to weight ratio would show smallblock. Then comes Turbo/supercharged. Basically boils down to what you want and how much you want to spend. I am twin turboing a 383 with a blow-thru carb.. Should dial in around 800 horses on a mild engine at around 15lbs of boost. Should be a 9 second streetcar. O', 20 mpg to boot?!

My Cuda has a 440 in it now and has around 550 horsepower. Gets maybe 8 miles to the gallon and the front of my a-body is draggin the ground. Always messing with something under the hood too! Jus my 2 cents!

Cant wait to see it Cuudak. You happen to know Ken Mikel there in Hempstead. He used to run two super comp trucks.

I agree, forced indution is the great equalizer. The more boost you run, the more retarded the timing. If you had a super adjustable computer to dial out alot of timing, who knows how much boost you could shove in.

I guy at work as a Mitsu something or another. Natural turbo car with 24 lbs. being shoved in. Peppy lil'bastard.

Talk with the been there and done that or SCDE (Whom is here) about what is pump gas doable.
I'd love to do one myself.

Cant wait to see it Cuudak. You happen to know Ken Mikel there in Hempstead. He used to run two super comp trucks.

Not personally, I think he has/had a small machine shop that was also a shop for tombstones or something of that nature.

May as well start on the new 383 since I am waiting on sheetmetal. I gotta get the gashog 440 out of it. I am pondering stroking the 383 to a 436 with a 440 crank swap.

I am pondering stroking the 383 to a 436 with a 440 crank swap.

Do it now!:naka:

Heck yes!!

Wendy at SDCE is one of the people I have been speaking to. I will be using F.A.S.T. EFI whichever way I go. My interpertation of our conversations: meth/water injection is the way to go, it is not something you just forget about, but it acts as a sort of octane booster. Couple it with the fuel injection and you have the ability to run some serious boost. We spent a bit of time a few days ago talking about there twin turbo kit for small blocks. I am looking to have my cake and eat it to, if you know what I mean. I want the ability to drive the car. Jump in the car here, near Spokane, and DRIVE it to AZ type of thing. My car is set up for a big block, hell I am still tossing around the idea of saving my $$ for as long as it takes to build a 572" EFI Hemi. I have the crossram for it after all....I also have a lockup/od trans for it. I spoke to the company that made the bellhousing, was told that they have in the past modified the bellhousing that was made for a big block to work with a small block, they simply cut the big block flange off and mount a small block. How much can a 360 block, with a girdle and perhaps some block hardener, tolerate? In talking to both of these shops they both agree that boosted hp is more "gentle" on parts, providing it is tuned properly.I have spoken with The Supercharger Store also. Supercharged 400, pump gas with meth/water injection made over 1100rwhp without grenading. No way I would push that hard. Would like to run in the mid-high nines with a "street car", that was still able to be driven as mentioned earlier. I have a spool mount small block k-frame and a 360 outside, as well as 2 400's and a 440. Maybe I need to have a few more beers and just try to forget the whole thing???

Its only money!! Can't take it with you. Go for it!!

Hey Doug,

I have been tossing the same ideas around also for the 67 Dart I am about to get painted.
I will install the 318/402 combo in it and put a stout 904 behind it and drive it like that maybe abuse it a bit with some NOS while I put together a BOOSTED 360CI motor. RHS Headed most likely Stock Block, forged internals, girdle, cometic gaskets, head studs and probably a blow thru carb unless the EFI is reasonably priced with air to water intercooler & Water/Meth injection. I am tossed between single or TT set up. You can get the T60/70 Turbos for a reasonable price for the twin set up. 10-15 lbs of boost it should live, crank it up to 20-25 lbs and something will prob give, I dont know. How much boost does SDCE say a prepped block partial filled will take? There are alot of mixed views on the subject for sure. We need to figure it out. There is a member here that use to have a SBC TT with the smaller T3 Turbos that would run in the 8's all day long at 377CI, if I remember correctly. That is Hauling ASS. You would probably get 15mpg with efi until you got on it. WHY NOT A MOPAR!!

Hey Doug,

I have been tossing the same ideas around also for the 67 Dart I am about to get painted.
I will install the 318/402 combo in it and put a stout 904 behind it and drive it like that maybe abuse it a bit with some NOS while I put together a BOOSTED 360CI motor. RHS Headed most likely Stock Block, forged internals, girdle, cometic gaskets, head studs and probably a blow thru carb unless the EFI is reasonably priced with air to water intercooler & Water/Meth injection. I am tossed between single or TT set up. You can get the T60/70 Turbos for a reasonable price for the twin set up. 10-15 lbs of boost it should live, crank it up to 20-25 lbs and something will prob give, I dont know. How much boost does SDCE say a prepped block partial filled will take? There are alot of mixed views on the subject for sure. We need to figure it out. There is a member here that use to have a SBC TT with the smaller T3 Turbos that would run in the 8's all day long at 377CI, if I remember correctly. That is Hauling ASS. You would probably get 15mpg with efi until you got on it. WHY NOT A MOPAR!! Wendy told me that an intercooler is not needed, meth injection will work just fine. On a side note, when I spoke with the supercharger store they have had a few customers push a 400 up to just a touch over 1100 hp using an f1 procharger, I think he said it was an F1. After being ran on the dyno they pulled it apart with no evidence of main cap walk, and it did not even have a girdle.....questions questions questions.....I do know if I were to go with a 400 with forced induction the pistons (quote right from Ross) will be close to $1100.00. That was for an 8:1 piston with hd pins and oil support rails so they could move the rings down the pistons aways.....

Louis, don't know if you are a member at BBD. Might want to check this out http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/showthread.php?17322-850h.p.-is-too-much-for-500h.p.-rods.....&p=121661#post121661
From what I understand it was a stock block....that was not built for boost....

Louis, don't know if you are a member at BBD. Might want to check this out http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/showthread.php?17322-850h.p.-is-too-much-for-500h.p.-rods.....&p=121661#post121661
From what I understand it was a stock block....that was not built for boost....

I just signed up there right now. User Mad Dart

Thats a good board.

Turbochargers are the displacement Multiplier!! Boost does not stop at
1 Bar. I have seen engines take 40 + PSI......Divide that by 14.7 for Bar.

At 1 BAR, a given engine will Double the NA Power.

350hp NA, 700 at 14.7 psi.

2 BAR will yield ANOTHER 100% of the original power for 1050hp @ 28psi.......IF, IF IF IF IF you can keep the CHARGE TEMP....BELOW 220* F.
Detonation is the killer here......and you better have 4" exhaust for 1000+hp.

I cannot wait to apply my knowledge to my Duster.....:clock:

Turbochargers are the displacement Multiplier!! Boost does not stop at
1 Bar. I have seen engines take 40 + PSI......Divide that by 14.7 for Bar.

At 1 BAR, a given engine will Double the NA Power.

350hp NA, 700 at 14.7 psi.

2 BAR will yield ANOTHER 100% of the original power for 1050hp @ 28psi.......IF, IF IF IF IF you can keep the CHARGE TEMP....BELOW 220* F.
Detonation is the killer here......and you better have 4" exhaust for 1000+hp.

I cannot wait to apply my knowledge to my Duster.....:clock:

This is under ideal conditions in a perfect world. The Losses (heat is a good example) add up. Theoretically if you double the air into the engine, you can double the fuel and horsepower. Turbo's are so damn sexy. 70% efficiency out of a gasoline engine. Mmmmmm.

Been doing some reading here and there, what is the deal with gear ratios with forced induction? I am unsure of what I will be doing, but I need to get axles and a center case for my car before I go to get it. I suppose I could hold off on the center case til later...but still wondering about gearing of a forced induction vehicle. I knew driving that diesel truck with a turbo was going to get me hooked on it....

As far as gear ratios with forced induction....think of this....RPM happens REAL FAST when Boost hits....so....4.10's would theoretically run out of steam real fast as well and theoretically max rpm/gear ratio limited speed would as well....unless you had a OD trans of some sort.

Torque overcomes tall ratios with traction, so I would recommend a 3.00-3.55 final drive ratio with forced induction...for everday use.

Volumetric Effeciencies for turbocharged engines have been known to exceed 140% VE. 8)

Ink, have you been peeking at my notes lately? Although I have yet to talk to SDCE, I've been planning a stroker smallblock twin-turbo with EFI that would go into a B-body. I haven't decided for sure which B-body - '70 RoadRunner, '70 Charger or a '71 - '72 Charger.

A quick AutoTrader search came up with this
http://www.autotrader.ca/used_cars_Car_details/KEMPTVILLE_Ontario_1972_DODGE_CHARGER_2569125.html ?srcID=19&frnID=2732928&prv=Ontario&r=40

My Demon would then go bye-bye.


Wylde1.

Wendy at SDCE is a trip to talk to. They have a twin turbo small block kit available. Of course there is a ton of options for it. I will be using EFI no matter which way I go. The thought of a twin turbo stroked small block is also running thru my mind. Question is how far can you push a production block before it is like a hand grenade with the pin pulled? I know with the amount of money I will be throwing at this thing the added $$$ of an "R" block is minimal, but at what point do you draw the line and say enough is enough? My car is set up for a big block, but I do have a later v-8 k-frame. And the bellhousing to mate the gm4l80e trans to a big block can be modified to work with a small block. But then again procharged 451 would be entertaining also..... Ink, have you been peeking at my notes lately? Although I have yet to talk to SDCE, I've been planning a stroker smallblock twin-turbo with EFI that would go into a B-body. I haven't decided for sure which B-body - '70 RoadRunner, '70 Charger or a '71 - '72 Charger.

A quick AutoTrader search came up with this
http://www.autotrader.ca/used_cars_Car_details/KEMPTVILLE_Ontario_1972_DODGE_CHARGER_2569125.html ?srcID=19&frnID=2732928&prv=Ontario&r=40

My Demon would then go bye-bye.


Wylde1.

As far as gear ratios with forced induction....think of this....RPM happens REAL FAST when Boost hits....so....4.10's would theoretically run out of steam real fast as well and theoretically max rpm/gear ratio limited speed would as well....unless you had a OD trans of some sort.

Torque overcomes tall ratios with traction, so I would recommend a 3.00-3.55 final drive ratio with forced induction...for everday use.



I have heard it said that because of the torque produced by the turbo, the tall gears allow the turbo to use the torque more efficiently, even causing the turbo to produce more torque than it could with low gears. Talk about a win-win. :cheers:

Will have and od/lock up trans...As far as gear ratios with forced induction....think of this....RPM happens REAL FAST when Boost hits....so....4.10's would theoretically run out of steam real fast as well and theoretically max rpm/gear ratio limited speed would as well....unless you had a OD trans of some sort.

Torque overcomes tall ratios with traction, so I would recommend a 3.00-3.55 final drive ratio with forced induction...for everday use.

Turbochargers are the displacement Multiplier!! Boost does not stop at
1 Bar. I have seen engines take 40 + PSI......Divide that by 14.7 for Bar.

At 1 BAR, a given engine will Double the NA Power.

350hp NA, 700 at 14.7 psi.

2 BAR will yield ANOTHER 100% of the original power for 1050hp @ 28psi.......IF, IF IF IF IF you can keep the CHARGE TEMP....BELOW 220* F.
Detonation is the killer here......and you better have 4" exhaust for 1000+hp.

I cannot wait to apply my knowledge to my Duster.....:clock:

Dang Kelly I read stuff like this and I have the NEED to build one for sure!
I will be starting on it very soon! I will take it to the MAX with a stock block and see where the BANG factor is! haaaaaaaaa

I will use forged internals though along with a girdle and a partial filled block! Cometic gaskets, head studs etc. With my favorite pair of IRON DOOR STOPS, INDY/RHS HEADS from Brian at IMM engines! Solid Roller cam in this one! Still don't know if I will do Twins or a Single.............still tossing it around.

I have heard it said that because of the torque produced by the turbo, the tall gears allow the turbo to use the torque more efficiently, even causing the turbo to produce more torque than it could with low gears. Talk about a win-win. :cheers:

Turbos love low gears, it violates all gearhead normal thinking.

My Reliant runs a 2.60 final drive ratio.


Doubling HP from 1 bar -> 2 bar isn't true, there are a number of issues that crop up. A 75% increase isn't unreasonable though. The higher the boost climbs, the percentage of power increase will drop.

Just look at the Chrysler 2.2 engines.

TBI 2.2 = 110hp
Turbo II = 174 hp

Take it from someone who runs 35 psi on gas and was hitting the dyno tuning dozens of cars on a regular basis.

John Balow and the boys at MCR are working on a '68 Charger HEMI with twin turbos. Drooooooooooooooooooooool.

Start at this pic and keep clickin' the "next" button!!!
http://www.musclecarrestorations.com/gallery2/v/Chrysler/Current/Dodge-Charger-68-005/Dodge_Charger_68_005_0367.JPG.html


Wylde1.

John Balow and the boys at MCR are working on a '68 Charger HEMI with twin turbos. Drooooooooooooooooooooool.

Start at this pic and keep clickin' the "next" button!!!
http://www.musclecarrestorations.com/gallery2/v/Chrysler/Current/Dodge-Charger-68-005/Dodge_Charger_68_005_0367.JPG.html


Wylde1.

Wow that is pretty cool right there!

I dont mean any offence Gdonovan, but the numbers I posted are ACCURATE. I have seen it time and time again. There are factors and variables in each setup, but the numbers are accurate.

2.0L NA engine makes 150hp at the crank....15 psi...makes 300chp

Bigger turbo....28 psi, same engine made 450hp....does your reliant make 450hp?

Dont call me a liar or insinuate I dont know what I am talking about......I think the TurboMustang Guys' and the 4cyl DSM crowd has more relevant turbo R&D then the 2.2L Mopar crowd ever thought about.

I am not here to misinform....

I dont mean any offence Gdonovan, but the numbers I posted are ACCURATE. I have seen it time and time again. There are factors and variables in each setup, but the numbers are accurate.


Chrysler-

2.2 Turbo II = 174hp
2.2 N/A = 110hp



Bigger turbo....28 psi, same engine made 450hp....does your reliant make 450hp?



Last trip to the dyno the Reliant belted out 518 crank hp, with 5 psi less than the old package.


Dont call me a liar or insinuate I dont know what I am talking about.....

Where did I call you a liar? You are the one flying off the handle when I pointed out *real world* examples from Chrysler and my own R&D.

We don't live in a perfect world, different engines and packages will produce different levels of results.

Attacks like yours are why I rarely post on forums.

YouTube- Reliant vs Supra at dragstrip

Chrysler-

2.2 Turbo II = 174hp
2.2 N/A = 110hp



Last trip to the dyno the Reliant belted out 518 crank hp, with 5 psi less than the old package.



Where did I call you a liar? You are the one flying off the handle when I pointed out *real world* examples from Chrysler and my own R&D.

We don't live in a perfect world, different engines and packages will produce different levels of results.

Attacks like yours are why I rarely post on forums.

YouTube- Reliant vs Supra at dragstrip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYuo5pUqnZ8)That is your Reliant??? I watched that video and just started laughing, that car hauls ass...

That is your Reliant???

Yup, thats my Reliant.

When it comes back out, will be deep in the single digits.

That is a great video, that Supra looked like it gave up at the 60 foot mark. Oh the look on his tuner girlfriends face! HAHAHAHA!

a few questions: Do you need massaged heads for a forced induction app? And where does the wastegate purge to in a draw through carb, its got fuel in it, right? Bosses F40 had a 3rd exhaust pipe that was from the twin wastegates, or thats what it looked like from the exhaust he had under the lexan engine cover....

blow through's how I do it.

otherwise 'fuel wet everything' and a potential explosion/turbos turn into missiles flying at you.lol

a few questions: Do you need massaged heads for a forced induction app?

Not as critical as an N/A application but certainly will help.

As the owner of one blower company remarked to me "Good heads are nice but we'll just push the air in one way or another"

Pressure is a wonderful thing...

Not as critical as an N/A application but certainly will help.

As the owner of one blower company remarked to me "Good heads are nice but we'll just push the air in one way or another"

Pressure is a wonderful thing...Will restricitive heads create an increase in intake air charge temps?

Will restricitive heads create an increase in intake air charge temps?

Well that would depend on how much boost you are running and the quality of intercooler (I'm assuming an intercooler, closest thing to a free lunch!)

In theory poor flowing heads will raise charge temp because more boost (air compression) will be required to hit your hp target or goal. In reality intercooler choice, boost level and turbo selection will have larger impact on charge air temp then the heads IMHO. Maximizing your air density pays off handsomely whether you have ported heads or not.

At 35 psi the relaint with an air to air unit would be at ambient or slightly below that at the end of the track according to the datalogger.

Nothing like 4 cores and airflow at 130 mph to cool things off.

Well that would depend on how much boost you are running and the quality of intercooler.

At 35 psi the relaint with an air to air unit would be at ambient or slightly below that at the end of the track according to the datalogger.

Nothing like 4 cores and airflow at 130 mph to cool things off.

Intercooler choice, boost level and turbo selection will have larger impact on charge air temp then the heads.
And if you were just running meth injection??

And if you were just running meth injection??

I really can't offer an opinion, never played with any system though I have a few customers who do (in conjunction with intercoolers too)

The Reliant always ran 110 octane race fuel so using meth as an octane booster wan't really needed and the small amount of fuel used at the track wasn't a hardship.

Air to air intercooler was the weapon of choice following the "Keep It Simple Stupid" school of thought. The next drivetrain with have air to ice water in a bid to maximize HP.

Yup, thats my Reliant.

When it comes back out, will be deep in the single digits.

That car straight up getzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz busy! DAMN!!

And if you were just running meth injection??

Maybe run Both?? Meth kicking in around 5psi or so?? That way if for some reason the "METH" didnt kick in it would still stay away from detonation no matter what? The closer you get to an ICE CUBE intake charge is the key right?

Just throwing out ideas trying to learn.

GREAT....(I dont want to argue, but you know 513hp is like what every turbo Honda around runs...right?) Racing a near stock Supra and laughing about it is Not anything new, or spectacular. I still offered Relevant Info on the subject of replacement for displacement....NOT misinformation.

No turbo...on any K-Car can ever touch this:
YouTube- FASTEST 4 CYLINDER CAR IN THE WORLD

Ideally Louis, you want the Intake Runner Tempature to be as close to ambient (or even below ambient) as you can get it.....to stave off detonation as long as possible.

Air to Air intercoolers BLOCK airflow into the front of your car,....or at least a properly sized one would......Air to water coolers use up the reservoir due to the conductive heat dissapation they employ....they work good, they are just more complicated.

Water Injection....turned on at a temp such as 150* charge air temp, would be best.....but knowing inlet temps can exceed 150 while NOT on boost, idling, cruising ect....its best to activate the system by pressure....and like I said....with a Adjustable Hobbs Pressure switch you can make the system come on at 1 psi if you wanted.

Ideally Louis, you want the Intake Runner Tempature to be as close to ambient (or even below ambient) as you can get it.....to stave off detonation as long as possible.

Air to Air intercoolers BLOCK airflow into the front of your car,....or at least a properly sized one would......Air to water coolers use up the reservoir due to the conductive heat dissapation they employ....they work good, they are just more complicated.

Water Injection....turned on at a temp such as 150* charge air temp, would be best.....but knowing inlet temps can exceed 150 while NOT on boost, idling, cruising ect....its best to activate the system by pressure....and like I said....with a Adjustable Hobbs Pressure switch you can make the system come on at 1 psi if you wanted.Air to water, similar to http://www.frozenboost.com/ ?

GREAT....(I dont want to argue, but you know 513hp is like what every turbo Honda around runs...right?) Racing a near stock Supra and laughing about it is Not anything new, or spectacular. I still offered Relevant Info on the subject of replacement for displacement....NOT misinformation.

No turbo...on any K-Car can ever touch this:
YouTube- FASTEST 4 CYLINDER CAR IN THE WORLD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHv_jKJVQ-Q)

That car is crazy wicked!

I don't see a Intercooler on that car, it looks like it goes straight to the intake LOG? So I guess they are using something to cool it off like Meth?

yes....air to water kits like Frozenboost has.

I advocate Water Injection, because of the simplicity, the Lowes/Home Depot "repair" parts...and the effectiveness.

I also advocate (WI) because it does not hinder engine compartment/glovebox/inner fender/mounting.....a simple 1 or 2 gallon water tank somewhere....a electric RV water pump, feedline, a nozzle...a hobbs switch for the pump Power....your in business.

So something like this will do the trick......................seems almost too easy! A 2 1/2 Gallon tank in the trunk with a pump, bam done!

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Category_Code=BCS&Product_Code=ATP-BCS-003&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp

Brent Rau's Mitsubishi Eclipse based back halved drag car is the top fuel funny car of all DSM's.

2.0 based 4G63 engine, Cast Iron Block, Aluminum..Fully CNC ported and polished 16valve hemispherical combustion chambered 4cylinder.

I have read that Brents' 4G63 put down about 1200-1500hp...but I cant recall specifically....

This engine was only offered as a FWD, or with AWD....and Brents' car is Back Halved and RWD with a full tubed chassis within the steel body.....so its modified to say the least....but it shows just exactly what is possible with the right setup.

John Shepard has the fastest Production drivetrain AWD...No NOS in the U.S. at 7.70 @ 195
YouTube- John Shepherd's 7sec DSM NO NOS! 8/15/2006 (Inner View)

Sheps' setup is estimated around 1000-1200 All wheel Hp.

your catching right on!!!!

Anybody notice what BR's boost gauge hit during a run? 82psi....5.57 Bar. Hmmm?

:farao:

GREAT....(I dont want to argue, but you know 513hp is like what every turbo Honda around runs...right?)

Are Hondas running 8-valves with a cylinder head developed back in 1977?

Thought not.



Racing a near stock Supra and laughing about it is Not anything new, or spectacular. I still offered Relevant Info on the subject of replacement for displacement....NOT misinformation.



Perhaps you failed to watch the video till the end, you know where the Supra went through the traps at 130 mph.

Ahem.

Perhaps you will retract your "near stock supra" statement to maintain your self-proclaimed accuracy rating.

It had a turbo the size of a basketball and made in excess of 700hp on the dyno.

I apologize man...really. This forced induction stuff is really out there for some people and I am trying to be as upfront and honest as I can, and felt like you were calling BS on what I said.

I stated I didnt mean any offence and yes, I did see the Supras' trap speed and know that a stock Supra doesnt run like that...they were 13. second wonders stock at best.

We DSMers have a joke...you know what a 400hp, 600hp, 800hp Supra have in common?....a stack of 12 second timeslips. :snakeman:

They dont hook up worth a crap, unless they are on slicks, and have a live axle installed to hook up that massive torque they make.

I respect you...just give me the same respect....my DSM didnt go 10's at 130, but when I finally got my setup dialed in and went from running consistent 13.30's all the way into the 12.40's @ 115 it didnt take long to figure it out.

I apologize man...really. This forced induction stuff is really out there for some people and I am trying to be as upfront and honest as I can, and felt like you were calling BS on what I said.



Oh I wasn't calling BS, just questioned the % of hp increase.

The problem is not all platforms are equally blessed with an optimum selection of components that will give you a desirable "doubling of hp per 1 bar of boost"

While this maybe true with some advanced 16V designs (like the DSM and Honda packages) with proper turbo systems other engine families will respond less favorably.

I'd wager if you ran the average 5.2 Dakota (230hp) at 14 psi with a turbocharger chances are it would not provide you with 460hp due to a poor intake manifold (torque design) and other restrictions.

HP estimates from 60% to 100% increase would all be reasonable, depending on the parts.

And its all on a sliding scale, the first 15-20 pounds are great and then you start to run into declining returns...

I actually got the Reliant down to a one to one pressure ratio between exhaust and intake pressure, no mean feet with a crappy flowing 8 valve.



We DSMers have a joke...you know what a 400hp, 600hp, 800hp Supra have in common?....a stack of 12 second timeslips. :snakeman:



Yup, I've heard that.

If the guy didn't blow the launch I'm not sure I would have reeled him in during the first half of the race. He cut a perfect .500 light while I held back to make sure I didn't light the bulb.

I was out accelerating him at all points of the track till the 1000 ft mark when my old combo just runs out of steam.

Peace!

I would have to side with GD on this one. In my experience in my small block Mopar I have found that boost is is good, however the "double the HP" formula for every 15 pounds of boost doesn't apply. It is way better than some of the other "land of diminishing returns" power adders. Especially if you keep moving up in size on your turbo while maintaining around the magic 15 pound mark.


On another subject, if I had to do it all over again with a clean sheet I would go big block. The base HP is important since its multiplied on boost. A big block has several structural advantages. Deep skirt block, stronger crankshaft, and 5 head bolts per cylinder come to mind.

I have had the pleasure to co-build and help sort out 2 LARGE Procharger cars that make way more than 4 digit power. They have a lot of problems and are really hard to harness, IMHO I think they turbo is easier on parts and has more tractable power.


Ebay turbos are tempting, but turbos are like anything else. You get what you pay for, and coming from a guy who had a turbo come unhinged, its devastating! I destroyed a very expensive set up by using a questionable turbo. Never again. Have fun guys its fun!

well alrighty then.....8)

We 8), your alright in my book man.

The sand is another place where there is an acception to the rule of displacement. That acception is weight. There has been a lot of guys left sitting there wondering how there 500+ HP LS powered rail just got smoked on buy a little VW 2180 that only makes 200HP. There most all around 2500-3000 pounds and were at 680 pounds. Weight is very important in sand. Way more so than HP or displacement.

I think some dodge colts also came with that engine.

The best Turbo K-Car...everyone knows...is a Dodge Omni GLHS 5 speed....very rare today.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.allpar.com/photos/dodge/omni/GLHS.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.allpar.com/omni/GLHS.php&h=379&w=808&sz=39&tbnid=Hf9Ib6_41Lgv0M:&tbnh=67&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDodge%2BOmni%2BGLHS&zoom=1&q=Dodge+Omni+GLHS&hl=en&usg=__u-ybAqO5Cp8enISdjnHk7HUANFs=&sa=X&ei=XlmdTIu4LoSdlgeKi43eCQ&ved=0CCIQ9QEwAg

There are a few people pushing the 5.9 magnum block with half fills right now on some dakota to right around 700rwhp. If you dont have the block and everything already what about going with the new hemi? Can start finding some cheaper now and they can handle some decent hp once you replace internals.

On a stock bottom end my '99 dak r/t made 435rwhp@ 11psi on a small si-trim Vortech. I was using met/water injection for cooling with 91 pump gas. It should have probably made better but was hitting the limits of the stock fuel system. Also just for reference it made 300rwhp with everything being the same except tune and s/c.
Originally was wanting to go boost on my dart but some how ended up trying to do this one n/a and running 13/1 comp (love e-85).


Troy

yes....air to water kits like Frozenboost has.

I advocate Water Injection, because of the simplicity, the Lowes/Home Depot "repair" parts...and the effectiveness.

I also advocate (WI) because it does not hinder engine compartment/glovebox/inner fender/mounting.....a simple 1 or 2 gallon water tank somewhere....a electric RV water pump, feedline, a nozzle...a hobbs switch for the pump Power....your in business.

Most people forget to think about water in a na engine.. Before I got blown I had a 500 inch motor very prone to det.. I put a spray nozzle under the carb.. viola.. pump gas nb...

Just my kinda late 2 bits:
A supercharger "fools" the engine into 'behaving' like it has more displacement.
If you calculate the amount of air that your engine moves naturally aspiriated per minute.
We will call this 'Dynamic Displacement'.
Now add the amount of air that the forced induction system slams into the engine to that.
To keep it simple:
360 CUI engine plus a 140 CUI huffer will act LIKE a 500 CUI engine.
Notice I put LIKE.
In reality, it actually will put out slightly MORE, with a properly designed system, especially a turbo.
Why? You get the power of the increased amount of fuel and air BUT you dont have to have larger, heavier pistons, conrods, heavier valves with fatter springs, harsh cam profiles, and the rod ratio is more effecient. This means a far lower mechanical power loss . If you cant make more power, then free up the power that you have.

The assembly spins up faster, too.
THe more power earlier into the RPM band the more effective work over time the engine puts out... or power increase.

At part throttle cruise the engine behaves as though it has lost those cubic inches and mileage goes up!

Forced induction is the way to go, IMHO.

I would have to side with GD on this one. In my experience in my small block Mopar I have found that boost is is good, however the "double the HP" formula for every 15 pounds of boost doesn't apply. It is way better than some of the other "land of diminishing returns" power adders. Especially if you keep moving up in size on your turbo while maintaining around the magic 15 pound mark.


On another subject, if I had to do it all over again with a clean sheet I would go big block. The base HP is important since its multiplied on boost. A big block has several structural advantages. Deep skirt block, stronger crankshaft, and 5 head bolts per cylinder come to mind.

I have had the pleasure to co-build and help sort out 2 LARGE Procharger cars that make way more than 4 digit power. They have a lot of problems and are really hard to harness, IMHO I think they turbo is easier on parts and has more tractable power.


Ebay turbos are tempting, but turbos are like anything else. You get what you pay for, and coming from a guy who had a turbo come unhinged, its devastating! I destroyed a very expensive set up by using a questionable turbo. Never again. Have fun guys its fun!

Prochargers are a serious hoot on a bb.. the instant on torque is a near sexual experience.. I can see the advantage to the slight turbo lag getting off the line for a turbo though.. I dont drag race but it would seem an advantage. Beyond that the procharger has a very predictible power curve all be it exponetial especially after 4K rpm.. but in the interest of harmony.. I sure dont have it all figured out yet..

I can see the advantage to the slight turbo lag getting off the line for a turbo though.. I dont drag race but it would seem an advantage.

Lag with a turbo? 28 psi on launch!

YouTube - Reliant vs Supra at dragstrip

Lag with a turbo? 28 psi on launch!

YouTube - Reliant vs Supra at dragstrip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYuo5pUqnZ8)

point taken.. I used to own a shelby turbo back in 85.. bought it new.. I remember winding that little 2.2 engine up to get it going ! problem with that things was the trans.. I blew two of them up in short of 20K miles. Still it was a fun ride.. later I traded it for a mustang 5.0 which was faster and had a bullet proof drive train.

As stated I dont race so what do I know... :toothy10:

for fun though I should get a utube of my 474 on a procharger smoking the tires off idle starting from second gear.
Unfortunatley I'll have to wait til spring now, I have her all taken apart for the winter projects.

Prochargers are a serious hoot on a bb.. the instant on torque is a near sexual experience.. I can see the advantage to the slight turbo lag getting off the line for a turbo though.. I dont drag race but it would seem an advantage. Beyond that the procharger has a very predictible power curve all be it exponetial especially after 4K rpm.. but in the interest of harmony.. I sure dont have it all figured out yet..

I hear ya Dave, I dont know it all either. I will say that when a Procharged car comes on boost it sounds incredible! It makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck!

I hear ya Dave, I dont know it all either. I will say that when a Procharged car comes on boost it sounds incredible! It makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck!
They do sound cool.....YouTube - 1000hp Duster

This is my new favorite thread. Keep it coming guys.

The only replacement for displacement is dollars. Barring dollars, displacement is king.

The only replacement for displacement is dollars.

Don't agree.

Some turbo kits can be done very cheap and forced induction butt.

The most expensive part of the Reliant was turbocharger which in a lot of cases would be cheaper than what people would spend for a forged slugs alone with a V8.

I was deep into the 12's with bone stock parts and running 11's with a mild turbo upgrade.

Not bad for 153 cubic inches.

The best replacement for displacement IS knowledge of internal combustion engines....and experience with how they react to being Forced Inducted.

Experience is the hardest ingredient to acquire.

Trial and Error will lead you to the promiseland.

One day the information that you will have collected throughout your experiences will just "click" and the angels will sing and you will have to become a Volumetric Effificiency formulatic wizard to calculate the airflow vs volume vs pressure deviants to the inth degree.

Accomplishing this will only cost:

1 long block
2 crankshafts
2 sets of rods
2 fully built, ported and polished cylinder heads
3 blown head gaskets
2 FOD injested turbochargers
2 lo-quality air filters
4 fuel system upgrades
2 or maybe 3 transmissions
4 sets of tires

It sure is worth it though!!!! :-D

turbo boost is sexy.ive had nitrous cars and ridden in superchaged cars and nothing compares to the feel and sound of a turbo.the only thing close is the sound high compression big block.......just remember though its not turbo lag its foreplay

just remember though its not turbo lag its foreplay

Now that's funny.

I'm really interested in this thread. I am wondering if for any given mod, engine for engine, wouldn't you be better starting off with a bigger displacement?
Just asking with my haven't had coffee adled brain.

I'm really interested in this thread. I am wondering if for any given mod, engine for engine, wouldn't you be better starting off with a bigger displacement?
Just asking with my haven't had coffee adled brain.I asked one of the local shops that does turbo work the very same question. His answer was basically at 15psi a forced induction motor will perform like it's size has doubled, all things being equal. He said in the case of a car with a cramped engine compartment this is not necessarily true. If the headers are a compromised design, if the turbo was to far from the collector, mentioned something about using timed exhaust pulses (read that in a boost book also). He claimed all of this comes into play. One of the things he mentioned was an exhaust system. He claims one of the things you want to stay away from is a chambered muffler, as this creates resistance. He also mentioned that while a big hp turbo car needs a larger exhaust, going gigantic does not necessarily help. Again, these are all his claims, take them for what they are worth....the company is http://www.wrenchrat.com/

If I remember correctly, isn't it the exhaust heat that spins the turbo? I would think that some backpressure would be of benefit. Or is it just that once the exhaust is thru the turbo you want to get it out as fast as possible?