349 CI on the cheap

First we'll start with a 318 block (rebuilder) as they are plentiful, then we'll get a 360 crank and turn the mains down to 318 specs. this runs about $200.00 to do. We are going to use the factory 6.123 rods, and low compression 318 pistons which are 1.72 compression height. Next we are going to align hone and deck the block to clean and square deck all 4 corners. Price will vary as to your local. This is more info on what to do and not priced as price can vary. So now we have a block that measures 9.570 after decking .030. As most used blocks are generally out .020 to .030 from core settleing and thermal cycles, some may be taller as they are only castings. Now this is where we are 9.570 actual deck height less the rod lenght, and the compression distance, and stroke. Half of 3.58 is 1.79 on stroke.

9.570-1.79=7.780 minus rod lenght of 6.123= 1.657 less the compression distance of 1.72= .063 above the deck. Now we'll take a corteco head gasket of .055 which now we have .008 above the gasket. Or for racing use a .022 mopar gasket and have .033 more compression for a total of .041 above the gasket.

Next we'll go to the heads, for a 349 CI we'll need the 360 heads to get enough port volume and air flow. By my calulations we'll need 166 cc's of port volume and 266 cfms to supply enough air and we'll be useing the 1.88 intake valves and 1.60 exhaust valves to help keep the port velocity up. This is fairly easy to get when mildly ported. As for the chambers they have been in the .095 to .105 in chamber depth stock, at the area where the quench would be. So now we have a positive deck of .041 with the gasket in place, or .008 depending on which gasket is being used. In this case we'll use the thinner gasket so we'll be .041 above the deck. Now the deck is .095 less the positive deck of .041 and we now have a quench of .051 so we'll deck the heads to true them up, generally this takes .010 to .012 so now we have a total quench of .039 to .041 which is what most would like to have as total quench. This now yeilds 12.21:1 this is why this is a race setup, the thicker head gasket will yeild about 11.5:1. If it doesn't take as much to deck the heads or the block then this will change to a lower compression and be more streetable.

Next we'll go to the camshaft, for our example were useing a comp cams .540 /300 drag race cam with 255 @ .050. For this cam the pistons will have to be notched, so we notched them .200 as the pistons are forged and are .400 thick. This is about as far as you can go safely. We'll be useing 1.6 ratio rockers so the lift is .576 but the lash is .026 and we have to subtract .010 for the loss of valve lift due to the grind for mopars. Now we have a actual net lift of .540. So with the valve reliefs we should have .100-.130 valve to piston clearence depending on the gasket thickness.

Next we'll go to the intake manifold, this I leave up to the end user for what they want. But for our application we used the M-1 intake as we had it, from another engine. And we'll top it off with a holley carb 850 cfm with 83 and 88 jets and no power valves.

Next we went to the exhaust as we used hedders the were from dyno-max as they were inexpensive and could get them locally. They were the 1 5/8 street type as we didn't want to get to large as we only have 349 CI's and the bore won't support much more, and neither will the heads.

So now to some this up we have a 318 with a 360 crank and stock rods and pistons of the forged type. Stock type heads with work done and a M-1 intake and a street type hedders. A good cam and valve train and oiling system to support this type of engine. The preliminary tests have shown 578 HP @ 6500 and 507 TQ @ 5000, and 506 FT. lbs. @ 4500. So it has a nice broad torque curve. Even in lessor trim it should still have over 500 HP and 450 in torque and be streetable.

Our cost in this engine with all machine work and parts we have $4,400.00 invested. A cast piston version with less cam would be roughly $500.00 less. Not bad for a engine like this when a crate engine costs about the same and wouldn't have the quality or the power.

But it does show what can be done with available parts and some time if your a do it your selfer, other than machine work. I'm guessing that you may be able to save $1,000.00 or more.
This is for information only and just something that we wanted to play with.

Bobby, looks like another winner. Two thumbs up. I say build it and keep us informed as to your progress. I for one will be waiting for the results of this build. I think with a few small changes it would make a dynamite street package and on the cheap side too. Good to talk to you today on the phone. Call anytime, and good luck on your build Bobby. Terry.

Bobby you always post the stuff I think about a day before haha. I was thinking about building roughly this same combo, due to you wouldnt have to clearance the block for the crank making it stronger. Only thing I am curious about is the pricing. Is it for everything including the block, parts, and machine work? Also, clear this up for me but low compression 318 pistons are forged? What year 318s?

Thanks Bobby for posting this, I will have to come visit you sometime in the summer and see these beauties.

I've been just itching to do this build - 500hp 318 - thanks Bobby

BoredandStroked,
The pistons aren't forged in the 318 from the factory I bought them. They have 4 valve reliefs in them as a flat top. Yes this would include the block, but if you have a core engine and want to do this yourself you'll have less $$$ in it, and if you want me to do the machining that can happen also, if not then use it for the info.

388dart,
I want to run this on alcohol in my race car this year, it shows over 600 HP and over 550 ft lbs of tq. carburated. This should be enough to run 9.90 in the 1/4 in my dart, and injected alcohol should get me close to the 8.90 et @ 2670 lbs.
I have to say thanks to Steve Garland (fuzzy) at the chassis shop for getting Jerry Bickel to supply the Pro Stock front suspension, and Steve for building the new front half, as the old one didn't survive the wheel stand. It bent the left side frame rail and roll bar up 3/4", so out with the big block and in with the small block for testing.........geeeessssss I guess I had brain fade.
I'll put the small block in later this year.

headsbikesmopars,
Feel free to put what you would do to make changes, as it may be something that I over looked. We are all here to learn, and maybe this change would work out better for some people, and be more feasable for them.

I even thought of cutting the tops of the pistons .030-.040 for street use and for pump gas along with the thick gaskets and then you could get to 10-10.5:1. At .040 off the top of the pistons it would be .023 out of the top of the block which is just .005 more than the factory 340 HP engines came with.
Also too you would have to add .005-.008 more ring end gap as the top ring will be sitting closer to the top of the cylinder bore, much like the KB pistons.

Bobby,

I have the 2 core engines to start with. A 318 with 76,000 on it and a late 70,s 360. Asuming that they are both good and I tackled the head porting myself, went with a little lower compression for the street, what would you put the approximate cost at?
Also, would the 360 cast crank hold up to that kind of HP?

Jack

Jack,
The mopar cranks are good to about 600 HP potential, and being that most of them, in fact all 360 cranks are cast from the factory.
I just recalculated the compression ratio with a 70 cc head and .040 off the piston which leaves the piston .023 above the deck and a .055 gasket the compression ratio will be 10.36:1 and 10.62:1 with a 68 cc head. But keep in mind that if you dont have to take .030 off the block deck surface then the compression will be even lower.
The machining cost in the block without parts is $1,100.00, this would include: grinding the crank, resize the rods, align hone the mains, square deck the block, boring and honing and balancing. I figured about $1,800.00 in the heads with parts, then the rest of the cost is in the engine kit parts, cam,lifters,rod and main, and cam brgs.,rings, pistons, gasket set, intake, chain and gears,oil pump, rockers, and pushrods. I allowed $1,500.00 for this.
So to answer your question I would guess that depending on what parts that you use, you would have $2,500.00- $2,800.00 in the engine with you doing the heads youself.

Wow, that is a big saving to have that kind of HP and still be able to say you have a little old 318. LOL
Having the parts on hand can be the deciding factor when it comes to the engine your going to build. To end up with 500 plus HP and be under $3000 is a big reason to go this route.

This thread should open the eye's on a lot of guy's with 318's that are always looking for 340's to build.

Jack

Jack,
I've seen some engine kits out there for $600.00 but you have to be careful as you get what you pay for and you may be into the engine in a year, thats why we went with the better parts and the cost is a bit higher. So is it feasable to do it cheaper .....yes. But if you have parts on hand then the engine becomes real cheap as you don't have to buy parts or engines. But this is a judgement that the builder has to make.

BJR....I think you are thinking right . I have been studying this combination also...I believe this is a way better combination for longevity than the 4" stroke and I believe will make more power per cubic in. because it has alot better rod angle and will not have the cylinder wall drag that a 4" stoke will and if you think about it still has the 360 concept. Only thing is that you will have to buzz a little (for drag racing) harder than the 4" stroke because you will not have as much torque...As for the alcohol, I don't believe it will help you a full 1 second as for the cars we have tried it on it has only helped about 60 tire hp and at 9.80 this will not increase a full second...Now remember these are just my thoughts and my wife says they're not to bright..LOL...Anyway, this is a very good thread you started...Lee

Lee,
Alcohol by it's self won't pickup that much but does help, as for the the 1 sec. deal I also would be going to injection, and for the 1/8 mile 9.90 is a 6.30 and 8.90 is 5.70. Also the balance would be like a 360 with light weight pistons which helps the higher RPM's, and peak Hp @ 6500 RPM's, but peak tq. is 5000 RPM's so the shift point would be 6000 as the RPM's will drop to about 5500 and the tq is still high at this point, something like 502 ft lbs.
This engine is built off of the Top Fuel engines style specs. that they use a large crank stroke and a small bore with long rods. This keeps bore to stroke and bore to rod ratios more in line. But this doesn't get carried away with stroke and throw rod angle out the window.
In all reality the ultimate engine would have the piston pins moved and the pin height shortened to take more advantage of the cranks stroke and make the rod angle better along with the rod ratio. The best position for the crank to be is 10-12* past TDC when fireing, this gives the best performance and tq. Also the longer rod allows the piston to remain at TDC longer giveing a better burn and more power with less piston rock and drag in the cylinders. And theres still alot of things that can be done to enhance power even more, but this now gets away from the cheap aspect and defeats the purpose of doing this engine combo.

BJR you can do the same thing with a 360 block bored .040 over and use standard bore '72 -'73 340 pistons. The low compression 340's had the same piston compression distance @ 1.72. I have already done this and it ends up with 367ci. You can find forged standard bore 340 low comp pistons on ebay all the time because know one wants them. I am in the process of building another one that I am going to setup for E85 being that pump fuel will be able to handle the compression of this setup.


Chuck

Yep and the 360 lends it self to this very easily, just as the 318 does. Thought about doing one of them myself, but something about the 318 just intrested me, and they'er more plentiful. And alot of people shun them. But very good point, sound like another thread, I'll leave this one for you.
Another nice thing is that some of the low compression 340 pistons had dish's this also helps.

When you turn down the 360 crank to the 318 main size do you also have to turn down the rear main seal surface?


Chuck

Yes you have to go from 2.955 to 2.685 on the rear main seal. A difference of .270.

You can buy a Mopar Perf crank with a 360 stroke and 340/360 mains for about $350

Yep and this is just another option, and the journals will both be std. Good point Adam.

I have heard of a few of these engines running around. Most are mild. I think if I were to do it, i would do a little different. I dont like hanging a piston dome that was not designed for it out of the deck. Mopars are tall pistons, and there might be room. But I would have concerns about the top ring hitting the bore chamfer. I had a 318 with soem Chevy pistons in it. I need to sit with some books, but I'm sure a chevy piston can be used on a mopar rod with a bushing replacement that would be part of a rod re-do anyway. But, my approach would be to use a 318 block, sonic test it, and bore it .090 over, then use the off the shelf 360 pistons for it. Another note...the cast performance cranks can take 600hp as a limit. Those have large good radii, no sharp edges on the journals, and better material. A factory casting, especially cut down to 318 main size, will not take 600hp. At least not for long. I applaud the effort tho. There's a lot more to it then just telling a shop to slam that together. Plus, I just bought two 4" cranks from Eagle, $350 each. With off the shelf forged pistons they can be used in a 3.91 to 3.97 bore 318 block. Not necessarily as "budget" as BJR, but less extra machining to get things to fit, and a streetable compression ratio.

Moper, why would you go to the trouble to sonic test a 318 then bore it out to a 360 bore size then turn a 360 crank to the main size of a 318 so you can have 360ci? This seems like the long way around the bush to get 360ci. Why not just rebuild a 360?


Chuck

Well, for some unknown reason (or at least unknown to me...) some guys just have to have that 318 cast in the side...even if it isnt one anymore...lol. Some people cant find 360 block cores locally. So, would I? No. I would use a core 318 block and build a 402. The 349s I know of used a factory crank and rods, but custom forged pistons. So there is room to save there. But unless you have the drill press and fly cutter, a crank grinder, etc you're paying for things like turning the crank further than "normal", cutting valve reliefs deeper, possibly trimming the dome surface a little, milling the intake to properly fit, shimming the rocker shafts. Not to mention paying someone to get decent flow numbers from a set of iron. BJR can do it. I dont think I could get that from say a std set of 308s or Js. And a shop that can wont do it for short money. The ultimate in cheap I think would be a .060 over 283 piston of some sort, with the 360 crank, and basic well done 308 casting heads. But that aint gonna make no 600hp. Not by a long shot. Sometimes "saving" means just keeping it simple. I also wouldnt build a 600hp small block with a factory block unless a rule book said I had to. I wont spend a dime unless I get a dimes worth from the result. Saving $100 and running a crank cut .300 undersize worries me. You can put nice radii on it, but it is getting thin even for std pass car duty to me. The ones I know of are solid 400hp street engines that dont rev past 5500. Building a true 600hp on a std car block worries me. Especially when using heavy parts, and the flexible crank. But that's why we're here. Toss out ideas..

Moper,
But like Adam said they make a crank for the 318/340 with the 360 stroke, and now your not grinding the crank and weakening it. Also if you dont cut the block the piston will only be out of the block .033, a stock 340 HP was out .018, I personally dont think that .015 more out of the block is really going to hurt the ring location or have any problems.The amount that I cut my block was to clean it up, the next guys block may not need this much. Also you don't have to cut the heads anymore than you want to, I was just useing this amount to get the quench where I wanted it. This doesnt mean that it has to be done to make it run. And actually the compression will be down enough for pump gas at this point. And obviously if you dont run this large of a cam and carb the power won't be there either, but I still think that 500 HP and 450 ft lbs of tq and be streetable out of a 318 which really isn't a 318 anymore would be pretty neat. And you don't have to search for 340/360 engines. It really isn't any different than putting a 4" crank in a 360 block, except for the rod angles are better and the side loading wont be there, so longevity and the price of aftermarket pistons and other parts arent warranted. Which to me makes this a better engine for less $$$$ with more than reasonable results.
Most engines running pump gas aren't going to be raced every weekend, but would go to car shows and maybe a race or two, or just for cruisin around on the weekends. This is just something to burn the tires up and sound great for the do it your selfer. Even if they spend $2,500.00 or $3,000.00 it still is less than a crate engine that would have to be looked at, and they would have the fun of doing it, and be different than the run of the mill chebby guys.

Some questions from the curious youngester Bobby,

Did you put a race grind on the crank?
Did you lighten up the pistons any more then what they came as?
What brand and style pistons did you use and how much did they weigh?
Did you lighten up the rods?
Shave the heads any to get the bigger chamber sive shaved down to the 318s bore size?

Meant to say this earlier but if you did shave the heads it would increase the valve travel and start to hit the pistons so is there any way of putting deeper valve reliefs in the piston. I know this is boarderline crazy but just curious as always.

Thanks again Bobby for this post, I remember asking you about this type of engine but we didnt go into details.

Some questions from the curious youngester Bobby,

Did you put a race grind on the crank?

Yes I did put a race grind on the crank.


Did you lighten up the pistons any more then what they came as?

No as they are already lighter than the factory 360 pistons and there wasn't any need to do this.


What brand and style pistons did you use and how much did they weigh?

They were TRW forged pistons, and stock low compression, they weighed 609 grms and 154 grm pins.


Did you lighten up the rods?

No, as there wasn't any need to


Shave the heads any to get the bigger chamber sive shaved down to the 318s bore size?

No because the compression was already high enough.

Meant to say this earlier but if you did shave the heads it would increase the valve travel and start to hit the pistons so is there any way of putting deeper valve reliefs in the piston. I know this is boarderline crazy but just curious as always.

Yes I made the valve pockets .200 deeper for the cam that I used.

Thanks again Bobby for this post, I remember asking you about this type of engine but we didnt go into details.

No problem.

Alright, but say the pistons wasnt sticking out above the deck due to the builder not needing to deck it much, and wanted around the same compression as you have, what would you reccomend?

Clint,
With this setup even without decking the piston is out of the deck .033. You would have to cut the heads a good bit to get the same compression ratio.

HOLY JESUS!!! thats a whole bunch of power, and not just a 318, any small block. i think i have finally found a purpose for my standard '68 318. great thread BJR, opened my eyes to a whole new approach

I want you to know I believe this is a very good thread.....But I have some issues with it...You are claiming to get over 600 hp on a flat tappet cam...(maybe a roller. not a flat tappet)....Because this would have to be tire horsepower to do what you are claiming...This would be 1.71 hp per cu. in...I do not believe this can be done with the combination you are describing...If it dyno HP, then you would only aprox. make 480 hp to the tire, which is not a 9.90 it would be a 10.10 if e.t. and mph was on top of each other...This is possible, but I don't think on a small flat tappet...We have tried alcohol injection, hats, and alcohol carbs...Never got a full second out of a fast car...Maybe a slower car...Kinda like 100 hp of nitrous on a 13.00 car..could p/u to 11.80 - 12.00's....But put the same 100 hp on a 9.90 car this will only make approx. 9.40 - 9.50... The computer always says an 1 5/8 header will work better on a stock type head...I have tried it, it's not true..Maybe a chebby, but not a mopar...A mopar has to breathe...The 360 head will not flow enough...Might look into some edelbrocks...I hope it works for you...I will play with it my computer program and see what it says...It is always pretty accurate...I am planning on building one of these also, just with a little different combination....I'm just hoping mine starts when I am done with it ...LOL... I hope in no way you think I am being detremental or mean anything bad with what I have said...I am 39 yrs. old and have been around drag racing all my life and I just don't think this will happen with the combination you have described....Lee

Lee,
No offense taken.
I respect your opinion, I too have been around drag racing all my life, I'm 48 years old. But I have already taken a car that was running 5.50 in the 1/8 and with adjustments to the alcohol injection turned a 4.97 and this was just in tuning. And no other changes.
I believe that this engine will get me to where I need to be as my .040 318 with 302 heads has already run 7.303 @ 96 mph with a 1.53 60 ft. time and this is what that engine has in it.

M-1 intake
650 dbl pumper race carb
302/318 heads gasket matched and bowl blended
1.78/1.50 valves.
stock pistons,rods and crank
.480/280 hyd. cam
1 5/8 hedders
87 octane gas
timing set @ 30* total
iron adjustable rockers and chrome moly pushrods
valve springs with 110 on the seat and 310 open

Now this engine makes 316 HP to the tires and even though your calc. comes to 480 @ the tires then 164 more HP to the tires should get me there. According to my calc. that I should run a 9.96 or 6.33 1/8.
But once again and were getting off point here that this is suppose to be a engine that can be built on the cheap and give reasonable results even on pump gas. The hedders were choosen for street use and mild racing, and the ease in hooking up the exhaust. Not because they made the most HP or tq.

Billy, I think he's confusing 1/4 mile and 1/8 mile ETs. I've seena few strong "claimer" type engines, so I'm not debating whether you can do it. Just whether it's doable for a general guy. I have seen factory blocks off more than .028" on the same deck surface, and more than .015" from the outside to the inside edges on tha same deck...lol. So your figure of .033 is perfect in a "worst case" scenario. The head milling is up to the builder, and again why I would say it's not easy to duplicate. There are a few things I wouldnt do, but that's what makes the world interesting. I want to look into that 283 piston idea...but I wont see a couple piston books until Saturday...lol.

Moper,
This is good and I would like to see how you would go about doing this engine with your ideas and parts, but @ 349 CI and be able to keep the cost down.

No, I am not confusing 1/8 mi. and 1/4 mile times at all. I am not for sure about the 6.30 being a 9.90( he is probably right) but, I do know a 6.40 is a 9.99. The 7.30 he is stating that he has run is approx. a 11.20 to 11.50..Sounds a little high geared for he is running more mph than the car is et'ing. This is what I was talking about on gettin your #'s on top of one another. When you have everything tuned and geared to it's maximum performance you et will match mph...This is a good thread and I do believe the 349 is capable...Moper, you are right on the 283 piston...I believe it was keith black that I found it...I believe it was one of there silvolite cast pistons though...Alright, for a non high winder (street cruiser)...Here are the spec's...LOL...Found my scribbling...3.875 bore....1.66 ch.....927 pin w/ a chebby rod
Another one is Part# 1278...3.910 bore...1.658 ch.....984 pin...chrysler rod....You guys look at these and see if my calculations are right...Thanks, Lee

My 360 will have to be taken out to at least .030, but this .040 with 340 pistons really got my attention. I have a 1977 360, will my block tolerate an .040 bore? I have been told that they have thin castings. I don't want to mess it up!

You can buy a Mopar Perf crank with a 360 stroke and 340/360 mains for about $350

But you can buy an Ohio cast 4" stroker for $299. If you have to buy pistons anyway why not go with the cubic inches.

Just something to think about. Certainly if you are bucks down and just happen to have this stuff laying around, by all means, have fun. But if you have to buy some or most of this stuff, go with the cubes.

Just to add a little fodder, I really liked my 3.31 stroke engine, That thing really sang on the top end. My 3.58 stroke engine still gets the job done but it's not the same on the big end.

But you can buy an Ohio cast 4" stroker for $299. If you have to buy pistons anyway why not go with the cubic inches.

Just something to think about. Certainly if you are bucks down and just happen to have this stuff laying around, by all means, have fun. But if you have to buy some or most of this stuff, go with the cubes.

Just to add a little fodder, I really liked my 3.31 stroke engine, That thing really sang on the top end. My 3.58 stroke engine still gets the job done but it's not the same on the big end.

High RPMs and stroker cranks need a little more work than just bolting together a few off the shelf parts. You have to add more air flow and not just for the added CI but you also have to factor in piston speed. As piston speed goes up the time to fill the cylinder goes down. I did not factor this in 10 years ago when I built my first storker motor and I had to pull the heads and port to wake it up.

You can bolt anythign on a 4" arm engine, but you are right. The heads and intake begin to choke them very quickly. Meanign low rpm. But the 3.58 arm is a 360 base. They are fed fine with std heads, assuming the combos are properly built. 318 and 340s are very similar. 360s are able to be cammed and headed a little differently. If you dont, you get a power band that tapers off earlier than what might be expected.

OK, I'm lost here, and I mean no offense to anybody, but why spend extra to give up displacement. Sure BJR's combo should work, but if I had a 318 and 360 core motor sitting on my shop floor, I would be inclined to use the 360 block and put the money saved from weakening the crank towards some good pistons which would last longer at this power level. I guess I would have to find some other way to give up the 11 cubic inches. And then there's the issue of ending up with a 350. If I wanted to have a 350...

I think it's one of those... just to say you did it ont he cheap... deals. No harm in playing around with ideas...lol. Plus I just picked up a 318 Magnum shortblock and a 360 Magnum longblock Saturday... I didnt get to see the catalogs tho...

You have to give credit to BJR to come up with a new combo that is cheap and makes good Horse Power. Nice to see someone thinking and leading and not just following.

I'm not sure where my post went. i wrote it a while ago, it lokoed like it went up...Anyway..

I finally got to the book I wanted. What I would do is go with a flat top 307 Chevy piston, .040 over. Specs end up like this: 3.935 bore, 3.58 stroke, 6.123 rod, yeilds .015 down in the hole on a 9.6 deck. I have found dished and flat tops w/4 valve releifs in the few tries at searching. $122 plus shipping w/rings off ebag. The pistons would need the pin bores cut for pin retainers. Most blocks are taller than 9.6 to start, but it gives a little wiggle room if needed. The valve releifs are not placed right, but I think running them .015 down, and runnnign Magnum or 302 type heads with a mild to medium cam would make things fine anyway. The rods would need the bushings swapped to ge tthe chevy pin size of .927 from mopar's .984. But that's no big deal, part of re-doing rods anyway. All totalled, it would end up aounr $1300 plus parts, for bore, hone, sq deck, redo rods, modify pistons, turn crank, and balance. I'm sure the complete engine could be done for under $2500 using swap meet or ebag stuff, and buying a set of new/done Magnums. Assembling yourself too. That makes a 10ish:1 static 348 with good qeunch, modern heads, and decent street manners. It would be decent for mild truck or street/cruiser. Redline would be 5500. That's how I'd do it. I had a 318 with some chevy pistons years ago, and they worked fine.

Yes sir Moper,
Now you are talking a cheap build for the common street guy. I don't understand why the red line would be 5500 though...Can you explain...We have twisted these 360 cranks in the upper 7000 range without a problem or would it be based on the mains being turned down...Maybe the cam you picked out?...Anyway, would like to hear your input...Thanks, Lee

318 pistons are around $80.00 and rings are another $30.00 or so and you wouldn't have to change the size of the rods on the small end. Which is as cheap as the chevy stuff. The thing that I like about the hyper's is that they have the valve reliefs already in them and placement is right. I may shelf the cast ones and use the hypers. They may be a bit more but should be worth it.

My concern is more for the compression height. Adding that .135" in most blocks means popping out, like what you mentioned. I know you can take some off cast or forged pistons, but milling the entire top of a Hyper puts those rings even higher. 70, my feelings about the strength of the crank turned way down, and the cast pistons makes me set that limit. I tend to be conservative in that type of thing because it suits me better. Plus, in reality, most guys are not racing the engines much higher than that unless they know little about torque peaks or run 4.30 or lower gearing..lol..

BJR, do you know any shorter (compressionj heights in the 1.65 range) 318 part numbers? I cant find much. But there has to be somkething. Maybe a marine or agricultural piston number...

Positive deck pistons are of no issue if you have the clearance. Some 273 and 340's are positive deck motors. If it was to be a problem you can run a thicker head gasket, say a .060 gasket and now it is of no issue. Sure the rings will be farther up in the bores but that isn't an issue either being it isn't much higher and the chamfer in the bores is quite small.

Your 307 piston thing is interesting though.


Chuck

Moper,
I found a piston from Sterling and it has a 1.658 compression distance and the part # is LC371P, it comes in std, 20, 30, 40, and 60. It fits 67-84 truck with .040 recessed head, designed for pressed or floating pins and states that it's 7.0:1 rings are 2 @ 5/64 and 1 @ 3/16.
With this piston and the block machined the way that I did mine I would be .001 below deck with .030 off the deck, so now a .038 gasket and a 302 head would give preferred quench and near 10:1 compression.
The other way I was thinking was that I would use the 360 head with the open chamber and let the piston stick out and create quench with the piston and the thinner gaskets. But the engine could be built either way.

Moper

This is true, but your peak torque is gonna depend on the cam you use...Not everyone will use the same cam and I do run a 486 pro gear... or are you just basing this off the small flat tappett that you guys were first talking about...Because I would not use that cam myself.

70dartman,
Were you thinking more along the lines of a roller? Or a larger flat tappet?

BJR...A larger flat tappet ! Try thes and see what they say...I cannot get my program to run...Will work on it though..LOL there are 3 cams....
Cam 1: @ 50 Int...242---543>>>> Exh...248---563 ... 107

Cam 2: @ 50 Int...237---534>>>> Exh...242---543 ...107

Cam 3: @ 50 275 >>>> 585 Straight across 108

70dartman,
This is the baseline cam that I came up with .540/300 255 @ .050 108 CL

HP flywheel --- HP net --- TQ flywheel --- TQ net

586 @ 6500 --- 457 --- 511 @ 5000 --- 458 Baseline cam

544 @ 6500 --- 442 --- 508 @ 4500 --- 448 this is cam 1

533 @ 6500 --- 436 --- 506 @ 4500 --- 443 this is cam 2

608 @ 7000--- 462 --- 510 @ 5500 --- 456 this is cam 3

BJR,
In your original post you had a compression ratio of approximately 12:1 to get these kind of HP and TQ numbers. If you were to drop down to say a 10.5:1 compression and use a more streetable cam, of your choice, what kind of numbers would you be coming up with? I would also assume that you would have to go to a little smaller carb in this case. I am not one to worry to much about how much of a bear it would be to drive as I prefer manual steering and brakes anyway, but I was thinking more along the lines of using pump gas.

Jack

Jack,
Using the pistons that I found in post 47 the compression would be 9.98:1 and with 93 octane pump gas and a .480/280 hyd. cam with a .055 gasket and 68 cc heads.

HP flywheel --- HP net --- TQ flywheel --- TQ net

511 @ 6500 --- 402 --- 480 @ 4500 --- 409

70, my thoughts were keep the cam small for a couple reasons. First, IMO, it shouldnt be reved. Why go bigger, pushing the peaks higher and making things more peaky when you shouldnt be revving it anyway (my opinion). Second, by not getting too wild in the cam, you dont have to modify any existing piston dome or releif for piston to valve clearance. Go bigger, you will. That's more $$.


BJR, That was exactly what I hoped you were envisioning. I just dont have it in the book I have that was printed by TRW in the 80s...lol. So that would be even less $$. On using the open chambers to make a positive deck quench engine...Have you actually tried that before? I have a .060 over 440 I am still making slow progress on when I have time. The biggest issue is the roof of the chambers, and the shape, are not consistent. So every hole, I have to clay the piston dome (KB quench domes) with the head in place, and work until it's reasonably flat. They have to be polished, because some of the surface casting roughness takes up .015" of that qunech..lol. Basically, it's a huge PITA, and not something I would call budget unless the skill level of the builder is worth nothing. For my stuff, that's the case. But for others' I'm doing it for..that's not. Poor execution by Mopar ruins a good idea...lol.

Those are impressive numbers for a streetable 318 block and the small valve 360 heads. This would be with the piston positive decked and thinner head gaskets to create quench would it not?

Jack

Moper,
For trying the above deck engines we have done this for a number of years, and yes your correct in that the chambers are different for each one, but because of machining, the heads the end cylinders are generally the smallest and the center two are the largest.
As for doing the work in the chambers, I didn't worry too much about this as for the street and mild performance applications and pump gas. I wasn't useing a race engine for street use and being street use the engine limits are much more tolerable and forgiveing.
I did a 400 CI engine this way a few years ago and ran it for 3 years with .020 out of the block, steel shim gaskets and low compression 440 pistons as there the same height as the high compression 383 pistons and are smaller than the 400 in bore size so the overbore lent it self nicely to the 400 @ .030 or .040, or .060. This engine made 535 HP with a .480 hyd. cam and a M-1 intake, 490 ft lbs of TQ and ran 7.0's @ 98 MPH. I also did a 360 .030 over with the pistons out .030 and did the heads as we have talked, and it ran 7.40's in a 3400+ lbs car. Also with the NOS it ran 6.90's with a 150 shot. This car has been running now for over 5 years.
My engine is on the stand as I had the front half of the car changed to a pro stock strut front suspension, as I did a wheel stand and destroyed the factory one that I had under the car, but it beats replaceing the hard to find body panels. I recieved the car from the chassis shop on saturday and I put a 402 CI engine back in as it makes 70 more HP and 50 more ft lbs of TQ than the 404 I had in there.

Those are impressive numbers for a streetable 318 block and the small valve 360 heads. This would be with the piston positive decked and thinner head gaskets to create quench would it not?

Jack


Jack,
Actually the piston is .001 down with .030 off the deck and a .055 gasket and 68 cc heads.

You have to give credit to BJR to come up with a new combo that is cheap and makes good Horse Power. Nice to see someone thinking and leading and not just following.


Thanks! For the kind words.

BJR
I hate to keep asking you to work...LOL...But can you try these same cams w/ u head and 2.09 intake w/ 1 7/8 in header and a 2' header w/ the cams advanced 4 degrees ?....Lee

70dartman,
I'll PM you.

Thanks for the pm....I got mine working...I appreciate all that you have done...Lee

70dartman,
Run these flow #'s through your computer with the 1.88/1.60 valves, 168 cc's intake and 64 cc exhaust.

lift --- int./ext.

.100---96/89
.200---185/133
.300---229/181
.400---248/196
.500---283/201
.600---285/206
.700---281/207

does your program give efficentcy, if it does check out how they are, for stock castings.

Here is a link to pistons for building BJR's setup. With a 9.6 deck height these will net you .009 below deck.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOPAR-RAMCHARGER-D500-TRAIDUSTER-318-PISTONS-TC1930-030_W0QQitemZ330113142524QQihZ014QQcategoryZ33623Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Chuck

Nice write up! I just may build this for my new project:D

Here's my last 318 www.rhphoto.com/dart.html

Has anyone tried this build? What are some of the results?

I've been so busy that I havent had time to finish mine, all the parts are here but just don't have the time to assemble it right now. I should have it finished shortly.

Thats what you get for helping everyone out. LOL. Now finish that dam thing already.lol.I Still need to call you about my heads and build. I will be doing that shortly. Hope all is well with you BJR.

Yes everything is well here but right now I'm 5 + weeks behind in business, so be as patient as you can be, I'll get it done soon enough and let everyone know what it does.

Ive actually DONE the 349 / 360 crank stroker build...but it wasnt all plain sailing.

First...I used some forged TRW SP2260 slugs and shaved the crowns down .100th...I ended up with very little P-V clearance.

I have this problem with mine - I can't run a cam over .500 lift.

I used some specially welded 318 heads, but had to take the chambers to 63 cc to avoid RIDICULOUSLY HIGH compression.

So what I have now is:

10.8:1 comp
318 heads (63 cc open chamber)
and can only run a .495 lift cam.


I d really appreciate it if BJR or Moper can help me with the following:

What KB Forged slug can I use witha 360 rod that will keep my comp up around 10:1, but give me the P-V clearance I need to run a .540 lift cam?

Diamonds are NOT on the agenda because of cost.

Hope you can help?

The piston is cast and is post 47 of this thread page 3.

dont you have to re harden your crank after a certain amount of grind. do you know the cost of nitrating(however you spell it) i think thats how you harden steel..

Most cranks are tha same hardness all the way through whne they are manufactured.

I think you mean the surface of the crank. They called nitraide or something like that.
You can have it done if you wanted to.

Most cranks are tha same hardness all the way through whne they are manufactured.

GEEEESSS,
My spelling sucks what the he** was I thinking........lol hardness is only .020-.030 thick so any grinding is going to remove the original hardness.

how much to nitraide a crank .

Kinda of a late reply but why not use the plentiful and cheap 1053 forged cranks from mopar 3.51" stroke,,i see them new as cheap as $299.00 0n ebay and there n.o.s american made parts,,already have the 318/340 mains,,wayne

Welcome Waynebo. I can not see a reason not to. If the crank checks out....All you need to do is the math to findout where the piston sits in the block and go accordingly.

Hey Rumble,,whatsssup...yea i did math and the 1.72" pin height is perfect..

3.51"/2= 1.755" + 1.72"= 3.475" + 6.123"= 9.598"

I allready scored a crank a few week ago,i have an 86 318 roller block and picked up a complete set of oem hyd. roller tappets with dog bones and the spider for $45.00 on ebay..now watching for the perfect hyd. roller cam..

I found the perfect piston for this at summit,or other places,,part #TRW-8K285NCP.. I now need too score a set of pushrods off ebay to keep cost down,,this should be a low buck yet very well performing combo,,i have a set of 302 and 574 mopar 340 replacement heads as well as 2 set of w2's and a couple of sets of j heads,,so i gotta decided,,i'm thinking the 574's would be perfect,,good thread by the way,,i'm in,,waynebo

He he he, your plan is alot like my up coming season of head swaps and intake swaps. Going .030 on the block? 342 cubes? Nice.

Your new here, where ya been else where? Or otherwise? Planning evil things I see.

I just finished a new 322 CI engine and waiting for good weather to give it a try, then back to the 349 for finishing.
There will be a new thread for the 322 and videos, you guy's won't believe it when you see it run. Just yesterday we did some 20 ft shots to make sure that the engine wouldn't stumble, and it was hazeing the tires 29.5 X 10.5 15's slicks at 9 lbs of air. Now were looking for 1 weekend of good weather so we can try it out or we'll be waiting till next season, but our season will be back for testing in January so it'll only be a few weeks if not sooner.

Hey Rumble,,i'm waynebo at moparchat,,i'm the one that suggested to the young man that he might want to use ebelbrock air gap instead of the china made copy...thats why i'm doing the 3.51" crank,,its a leftover from american made,,and i also like the idea of tring something different,,i'm in it for fun ya know..

BJR got a good thread going here,,i beleive this is the new wave of smallblocks,,the 318 is so plentiful,why not.if 302 ford can do it the 318 should do even better,,they have to buy a stroker kit to get 331" and a .060" 318" i beleive is 327",,which was chevys favorite..and i prefer the longer 3.31stroke than the bigger bore chevy 327". anyway,,good thread wayne

Wayne,
If you like this one wait till next week as right now we should be able to get the 322 engine out on the track, weather permitting, but it looks good for next week now. I'll list what I have in this engine also and it isn't much as in parts but lots of intensive labor. And the way that I see it is everyone has time and not much money so this is why I do these this way. Believe me you guys will love it, as were chomping at the bit to do testing.

Hey Rumble,,i'm waynebo at moparchat,,i'm the one that suggested to the young man that he might want to use ebelbrock air gap instead of the china made copy...thats why i'm doing the 3.51" crank,,its a leftover from american made,,and i also like the idea of tring something different,,i'm in it for fun ya know..


I figured as much, why change screen names. I'm me all over....so everone can love and hate me all over the place.
And your not the only one here doing this for fun, craps and giggles and plain old wasting money going fast for fun.

I got more crap lined up than I have money for....but, theres a light at the end of this tunnel I'm in.

Wayne,
If you like this one wait till next week as right now we should be able to get the 322 engine out on the track, weather permitting, but it looks good for next week now. I'll list what I have in this engine also and it isn't much as in parts but lots of intensive labor. And the way that I see it is everyone has time and not much money so this is why I do these this way. Believe me you guys will love it, as were chomping at the bit to do testing.

:thumbup: lets hear about your tnt..always gotta iron out bugs on a new one,but hows it going,,wayne oldgun@panhandle.rr.com

Won't know til Sunday but videos will follow if it doesn't rain, and if it does I'll video the rain.,,,,,,LOL

Well, I've been following this post for some time. I'm the kind of guy who likes to do things different, and the thought of running a 349 in the Dart is cool to me. I'm not even looking for anything crazy..just somthing in the 450-ish hp range.

Well, tomorrow I pick up a virgin 318 block, 302 heads, and MP forged stroker crank from a friend. I have no intention of building this motor any time soon, but it never hurts to stockpile a few parts.

Won't know til Sunday but videos will follow if it doesn't rain, and if it does I'll video the rain.,,,,,,LOL

whats the word on the 322????

Sublime,
The engine ran 7.53 @96 mph and this was after we had fuel issues the first week and then the gremlins came back the second weekend, so we bought a new fuel pump and fuel cell and new lines, and replumbed the entire system. And now we have to wait til the tracks reopen for a update, but we will also be changing the intake manifold to a M-1 from a Torker 340 manifold, but we are also adding a rollbar for saftey reasons, so the car will still run fast but may not get the intended goals that I had first set but should be close to them. But we'll wait and see. We've only had really one day to sort this engine out and try different things. So far we went from not running to running 7.53 on the first day. I'll keep you and everyone else posted as we get the time slips.

this is nice bjr.. should maybe do something for the 273 guys that want to keep their original motor... for number reasons

I guess I should start a new thread for the 322.

Correct me if im wrong, but isnt a 322 a 318 .30 over?


Bjr.

Are these 1/8 mile times. Are you running alc? or pump

Sunlime,
Yes your right it is a 318 .030 and yes they are 1/8 mile times and yes we are running alcohol because its as cheap as pump premium and way less than race gas for the amount of compression that we have in the engine.

Thats pretty impressive. That calc out to 11.92 in the 1/4 by the calculator i used. Can you start a thread on this moter? With the build.

In the words of Darth Vader

Impressive, Most Impressive. lol

Thanks! But were not done yet.

I just sat here and read this thread from start to finish. I must say I can't see any reasonable logic in building this 349 inch motor. $4,400 isn't cheap for a de-bored 360 with stock heads. Some people have the right idea on motor combos. I'm not in any way trying to dowm anyone's idea but I think some people are greatly mistaking the power range of this combo. In the last twenty years I have built every thing from a 192" strait 6 to a 738" 5.000 bore space pro mod motors. I have built about 15 small block mopars of various sizes and parts combo's. One of the nicest ones I have seen was a .030 over 360, 10.3 to 1 edelbrock performer rpm heads, m1 intake and a comp hyd 305/525 cam. Motor pulled hard to 6500, would melt the tires as long as you wanted it to stepping on it from a dead stop. Runs fine on pump gas and sound totaly awesome. I think total price on the motor build was around $3100 with new heads, roller rockers, cam & lifters, forged pistons, used intake and all machine work.
Something I learned many years ago, stock mopar small block heads just aren't good for making much power, unless you have a set of w2's I would never use a pair of stock casting heads. Not even magnum heads. Heads are where you are going to make your power. the edelbrocks are really nice and make power for the money and use all stock valvetrain parts. If you want more power and have a little more money to spend Brodix makes a pair of bolt on heads that use all stock valvetrain parts that have damn good flow numbers and can get you over that 500hp and close to 600 in street trim.
Just some food for thought on a more logical and less expensive way to make good reliable power

What kind of ET and MPH did this engine run? at $3,100.00 and what weight?


I also do fuel engines so what are you trying to tell me?

Brodix heads are $1,800.00 or more and $3,100.00 total, sorry you said Edlebrocks nuf said.

I'll take stock

7.80s in the 1/8 with street tires. motor is in a 68 charger with ac, ps , pb 3.55 gears. car was built for the power tour. If you ever get this motor built I would hope it's put on a engine dyno.

What difference does it make if it's put on a engine dyno?
The idea was to use the 318 block as they are more plentiful than the 360's.

What kind of HP did the engine in this charger make to run 7.80's and what was the total weight of this car when raced?

I just sat here and read this thread from start to finish. I must say I can't see any reasonable logic in building this 349 inch motor.

As 318 blocks are everywhere and a 360 crank, used is ethier free from your destroyed donor or cheaply had, the build isn't as expensive as other builds and provides a different angle on doing something different.

I would not do this build myself. But someone else might have such parts hanging around doing nothing. They may have not thought about it or never did any research on how it could work. BJR did and showed how it can work. The real extra cost is in crank machining and if stock pistons are used, valve relief cutting. Which is cheaper than custom pistons that are on the shelf.
Speed-o-motive has kits for this build. Expensive.

Like I said, this is not what I would do, but I also have complete engines ready to go for building. I would not try and create this combo when I have parts ready (For building or not) and complete engines.

This is just another angle on building from spare parts and something you want to do. Want is also a thing that doesn't consider or care about cost.

What difference does it make if it's put on a engine dyno?
The idea was to use the 318 block as they are more plentiful than the 360's.

What kind of HP did the engine in this charger make to run 7.80's and what was the total weight of this car when raced?
We never had time to dyno the motor. The owner was in a hurry and wouldn't take an extra day to dyno it. As far as weight of the car I would guess some where around 3600 #s. I was just asking about to dyno to see if this motor would even come close to making the power your thinking it might make. I haven't personaly messed with mopars in a few years but I don't ever recall 360s being hard to find, I understand 318s are everywhere. I always had a hard time finding 340 blocks. There is just no way I would turn a stock 360 crank down to 318 mains. As far as stock mopar a motor heads go I wouldn't waste the time doing a valve job on them if i was wanting any kind of decent power. Cylinder head technology has come a long way in the last 10 years or so and prices have come down to not use new heads. I just couldn't justify building a smaller, weaker, less power more expensive motor.
To each is their own.

We never had time to dyno the motor. The owner was in a hurry and wouldn't take an extra day to dyno it. As far as weight of the car I would guess some where around 3600 #s. I was just asking about to dyno to see if this motor would even come close to making the power your thinking it might make. I haven't personaly messed with mopars in a few years but I don't ever recall 360s being hard to find, I understand 318s are everywhere. I always had a hard time finding 340 blocks. There is just no way I would turn a stock 360 crank down to 318 mains. As far as stock mopar a motor heads go I wouldn't waste the time doing a valve job on them if i was wanting any kind of decent power. Cylinder head technology has come a long way in the last 10 years or so and prices have come down to not use new heads. I just couldn't justify building a smaller, weaker, less power more expensive motor.
To each is their own.
i am planning to build this engine,for a couple reasons.number one,i dont dont have the cash most of you guys seem to have.i can build this engine a little less radical and be stronger than most 360s around here.number 2,people are starting to think 360s are worth 340 money,ive had 318s given to me.also,you must have been into chevys for a while,because stock mopar heads can be very efficient performance heads,IF the right work is done to them,and they are of the right valve size for the engine you put them on.too big a valve will slow the aircharge down too much for a street application.you might get by with the high dollar heads on the drag strip were the cams are huge,and the stall is obove 4500,with really steep gears.i believe the 349 will better performance engine for the money than a 340,because the you can suptract the golden price tag of the block,right off the top.the torque will be better,with the right cam.i guess we could argue about it forever,we will see,time slips dont lie!

How is it going to be stronger than a 360 when you're taking 360 parts and making it smaller? Turning the crank that much isn't a good idea. Run the motor for about 5000 mile and pull it apart and magnaflux the crank and the mains will probaly look like spiderwebs. Lets say you take a stock set of heads and have them reworked.
How much would it cost you to have the seats cut for bigger valves, install bronze guides, milled, buy new valves, springs, locks, retainers and just have them mildly ported? Also I have not mentioned anything race motors. What I have built is a completly pump gas street motor that as of right now has 23,000 miles on it without a single problem.

Outlawracer,
They sell new cranks with the mains already the right size, so they wont be turned down and can get them as cheap as or cheaper than the machining cost of the turned down crank.

As for the heads why would you put larger valves in, this would create valve shrouding and a loss of flow as the cylinder will only pull so much air and thats it. Also to the larger valves will slow the velocity down in the heads so now filling the cylinder quicker becomes harder. Or the need for higher compression is needed to help pull the air fuel charge in.

As for the heads I would do what you have listed for $950.00 complete, and they would flow as good or better than the eddy's and cost less. And have better velocity than the eddy's. To me eddy's have 2 things that IMO go against them 1. the Int. valve is too big for this size engines bore and 2. the port size is much too large for this enigne and bore size, and the bore will never utilize the port efficiently, when a smaller port will make more power and Tq. and be more efficient.

In your orginal post you where talking about using a stock 360 crank and turning it down, not buying a one new. For another $300 more than what you quoted you can buy a brand new set of aluminum heads and not have a set of old reworked stock heads. Also aluminum heads help the motor run cooler and help control detonation.
No matter what you do to a stock set of heads they will never flow and make as much power as a set of out of the box eddys. Once again if a person is using a 360 the you saving the money of having to buy a crank or turn one down and the bore size is larger so that it doesn't shroud the vavles. Even with the 318 bore the eddys are perfect, I would actualy want 2.05 or 2.08 valves with a bigger bore. Unless you are using a pair of w2s your leaving alot of power on the table. When I build myself another motor I'm putting the Brodix ba heads on it.

For another $300 more than what you quoted you can buy a brand new set of aluminum heads and not have a set of old reworked stock heads. Also aluminum heads help the motor run cooler and help control detonation.

A 2.02 aluminum head isn't allways what the engine needs or can use. Running cooler is good. But an iron head is retaining heat for power and can run cool enuff for whats needed. If detonation is a problem, I would not be blaming heads so fast as there is also fuel and timing to look at.




No matter what you do to a stock set of heads they will never flow and make as much power as a set of out of the box eddys. Once again if a person is using a 360 the you saving the money of having to buy a crank or turn one down and the bore size is larger so that it doesn't shroud the vavles. Even with the 318 bore the eddys are perfect,

Your support of the Edelbrock heads is fine, but if your saying there perfect for a 318? I'm not sure one shoe fits all here.
While I'm not a guy with a flow bench and tons of motors under my belt, I'd like to know the division line areas for this.
A 2.02 in a 318 is a large valve. Something I wouldn't really bother with in most cases anymore.

I would actualy want 2.05 or 2.08 valves with a bigger bore. Unless you are using a pair of w2s your leaving alot of power on the table. When I build myself another motor I'm putting the Brodix ba heads on it.

But it's a 360 or 340 in a race body? Not a 318 right?

Thakns

In your orginal post you where talking about using a stock 360 crank and turning it down, not buying a one new. For another $300 more than what you quoted you can buy a brand new set of aluminum heads and not have a set of old reworked stock heads. Also aluminum heads help the motor run cooler and help control detonation.
No matter what you do to a stock set of heads they will never flow and make as much power as a set of out of the box eddys. Once again if a person is using a 360 the you saving the money of having to buy a crank or turn one down and the bore size is larger so that it doesn't shroud the vavles. Even with the 318 bore the eddys are perfect, I would actualy want 2.05 or 2.08 valves with a bigger bore. Unless you are using a pair of w2s your leaving alot of power on the table. When I build myself another motor I'm putting the Brodix ba heads on it.

Outlawracer,
Your correct in the fact that I used a turned down 360 crank but then I found cranks with this work already done and the cost was very close, so why not get a new crank before turning one down.

As for the heads I've seen the eddy's on my bench and believe me they arent what you think that they are. I've built many engines with factory heads that would run and hide from a stock set of eddy's. And I have fully ported eddy's also, but to say that the eddy's are that much better than a good stock head thats ported is rubbish. Eddy's only flow in the 240's at both .500 and .600 from the factory let alone fully ported they flow 290 to 300. I've done this with a set of 587's, and 915's, with 1.88 intake valves, so to say that the Eddy's are the clear winner is a misjudgement on your part.

Once again the idea of this thread was to use a 318 block and not a 360, if you want a 360 by all means do one. But then we both have different views on how to build engines, with both of us thinking that were right and I'll leave it at this.

I see the bigger problem as he is trashing a 349 without concern or care to how it got started. Some poeple here wanted to do this stroker combo. If thats where they want to spend there money, let them. Don't trash'em. BJR just showed a way to do it.

"Because we can???"

BJR - just to pick your brain: What would the implications be, using a set of mildly ported 596 heads on a 349 instead of 302 castings? Would the chambers be too big? Not worth my time?

I ask because I have a set of ported, rebuilt 596s on my current 360. If they are suitable it would save me from building 302s and putting the 1.88/1.60 valve set in them. I have a set of 302s, but they are unbuilt.

I now have a 318 block (stock bore) and a MP 3.55" forged crank with the correct mains. I'm looking for a nice little 450hp mill, nothing crazy.

Again, just poking around...I can't plan to put this motor together until the rest of the car is done.

superdart,
I think that you have this thread mixed up with the 322 thread as in the 3rd paragragh I use 360 heads.

They will work fine and actually what the engine needs. The 302's would be used if the engine was going to be a Tq. only engine with low RPM's and a 4000 RPM limit. Definitly use the 596's. But due to chamber size cc wise you'll have to check as to what your final compression ratio will be. You may want to cut about .060 off if this hasnt been done yet, and then cut .075 off the intake face so the intake manifold will fit properly.

A stock head is about .095 - .100 in the flat part of the chamber from the factory. So you can measure there and determine how much has been removed from the casting already.

You just have too many good threads to read...I can't keep them straight.](*,)

Oh well, I'll hold on to the 302s for prosperity...or until I find someone that wants them.:toothy7:

Are you wanting to sell them or give them away?

There are many people here that would like to have a good set of 302 castings, or maybe you should keep them and put them on a 318 as they work very well on them.

Just a little work is needed to make them some real screamers.

If your just wanting to give them away then I'll take them.

I have a whopping $50 invested in them. I can't say that I'd use them on another 318. I have one car, and only need one motor. The 360 is it until I can build the 349 (well, 346 since it's a 3.55 crank).

The ugly part is, what would it cost to ship a set of heads???

About $50.00

Ive been talking about my 349 build with Bobby - Unfo weused the wrong slugs and got limited P-V clearance, so my cam is only a smallish solid.

I finally got the combo sorted yesterday- and I think my times show the combo has potential.

Also, I did the swap from heavily ported 318 heads to STOCK 360's, and my track times prove it was worth it.

318 welded ported heads, 2.02 nailhead -
Best of 13.46, 1.91 60 ft, 99 mph.

360 smogger heads (NO porting), 1.96 tulip -
Best 13.17, 1.91 60 ft, 102.7 mph

For all the work done to the 318 heads, they were laying over in the top end, and clearly there's more in the combo if I port the smoggers.

Heres the background -

2 day - 88 deg F / 18% humidity -

With factory 360 smoggers (just a clean up - no bowl port -210 cfm?) and 1.96 tulip valves,
GM HEI ignition module,
3.9 gears , 27" tyre, on Firehawk road radials
Butchered Hi Comp slugs and 10.2:1 comp.
Comp 495 lift 282s cam -

I ran 13.17 in a 3620 lb car.

Bobby BJR - Thanks for your input on the heads - it helped convince me the potential was there...just needed releasing.

BTW - this car drove me 550 miles (One way) 5 weeks ago to visit family - :cheers:

it looks like with that mph you should have a lower time no?

DB15- Thats right, Im still relying on the converter/gears a little -

IF I got the 360 heads ported, then my MPH would be where it should be (appx 106 mph).

What it does show is that Im getting the best out of my combo - so cant complain!!

3620 lbs....for that Charger in your sig?

I didn't realize the A-body based Chargers were that heavy.

Moparmal,
Thats 326 HP net and in detuned state, and 407 HP out of the engine. Not bad for streetcar. Just think of how much more you would have gained if the short block was properly done,(piston and cam wise). Then add a little head work and were now over 500 HP.

3620 lbs....for that Charger in your sig?

I didn't realize the A-body based Chargers were that heavy.

Hi SuperDart - Thats with a half tank of fuel and me in it (Im 210)

However the Hemi 6 cyl cars are lighter, BW manual box is lighter than a 904, and the Hemi 6 is 150 lbs less than a LA SB.

Thats why Chrysler Australia circuit raced the Hemi 6 - it handled better with less weight over the front axles and its 105 wheel base.

I hear you Bobby - please dont remind me of what coulda, shoulda or woulda bin!! LOL!!

Ah..that makes more sense.

I LOVE that body style..it would really turn heads in the states.

Ah..that makes more sense.

I LOVE that body style..it would really turn heads in the States.

By last count there are around 8 in the US, and 1 in Canada.

The first was imported by the Baker Boys from Georgia, an R/T clone -

A guy on Moparts who I know pretty well (OzHemi) is a car importer and he has one (another R/T clone) , and has brought over four others for other customers.

(He also brought over OneBadSuperBIrds right steer Daytona....a car that was in Oz since 1972 and had to be converted to be licenced.)

Another guy named Ron down south somewhere has two Aussie Chargers - and theres another guy in SoCal that has another one.

SO we have-

Baker Boys car - Vit C
OzHemi - Vit C
Unknown - Bondi Beach White
Unknown (SoCal) - Mercury Silver
Ron - Penta Magenta (bit like Panther Pink) and Vit C
Sandy in Canada - Dont know the colour

I believe all are Hemi 6 cars.

Mal,
Did you mean Bayer Boys? as there here in Ga. and there Mopar specialists. There very close to me location wise.
As I've never seen the car I've heard of it.

Thats right - The Bayer Boys -

They sold the car around two years ago - Its was featured in a US car mag also about 10 years back.

http://www.moparts.org/moparts/picture/bayerboys/index.html

Scroll down the page - third car down -

Although its what Chrysler Australia called "Hot Mustard", not Vitamin C.

By last count there are around 8 in the US, and 1 in Canada.

The first was imported by the Baker Boys from Georgia, an R/T clone -

A guy on Moparts who I know pretty well (OzHemi) is a car importer and he has one (another R/T clone) , and has brought over four others for other customers.

(He also brought over OneBadSuperBIrds right steer Daytona....a car that was in Oz since 1972 and had to be converted to be licenced.)

Another guy named Ron down south somewhere has two Aussie Chargers - and theres another guy in SoCal that has another one.

SO we have-

Baker Boys car - Vit C
OzHemi - Vit C
Unknown - Bondi Beach White
Unknown (SoCal) - Mercury Silver
Ron - Penta Magenta (bit like Panther Pink) and Vit C
Sandy in Canada - Dont know the colour

I believe all are Hemi 6 cars.



Hey Moparmal,

There is an "A" Charger in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada with a Hemi 6 in it. I can't remember the guy's name that owns it though. I saw it at the Atlantic Nationals in Moncton, New Brunswick last year. It was a darker colour but I can't find the pic I took of it for some reason.

Jack

Jack

It might be the guys name is "Sandy", he has a few Aussie Valiants....

If it's Nova Scotia, it will definitely be Sandy C. I am fairly sure he also has one of the few (or only!) Aussie late-body utes in North America...I know he had either bought one or was looking at one a few years back when he came to Melbourne...

Dean.

I just got this email from Campbell Enterprises - Its not their fault I know - The Silvolite is NOT a direct replacement - It has NO valve reliefs.

To say Im p*$$ed would be an understatment -

I wish manufacturers would do some product research before cutting an item -

Mal,
sorry, had brain freeze on that part number for some reason. LC371p40 is being discontinued which is why it doesnt show in the price sheet anymore.

we can get that in a silvolite part number 1278-40 which is the cross over number for that piston,flat top, ,5/64 ring package, 7.8:1 compression, truck/marine piston for $209.95 a set of eight.
Thank you,

Rob

So has anyone built one of these things yet?
Post up some dyno numbers if you have.

I believe Mal has and I'm in the process of finishing mine. But I'm doing mine a bit different than originally posted as the pistons are getting harder to find. So I'm using stock pistons and remachining them to fit. I worked out the clearences this past week with different heads. The pistons are very similar to a low compression Hemi in shape of the top. The piston will come out of the block .075 and leave the ring lan .200 down from the top after the machining. I'm going to use a stock cheater cam with 272/274 @ .050 106 and .474/.493 lift. With the amount of overlap in the cam the cylinder pressure should be in the 175 psi range. My compression ratio will be 14.68 with a 57 cc head. It would be in the mid 12.6 range with a 68 cc head, then run a cam with some over lap. This will be with a .022 MP head gasket, this could be reduced even more with a .055 gasket thats available.

I want to have this engine ready hopefully by the end of January 09 to be tested in Febuary 09. I didn't have the time this past year to finish it as work calls before play. I'm also making some changes in the heads that weren't done before.

Also with a .055 head gasket the cylinder pressure should be in the 130 psi range with the 68 cc head at just under 12:1 compression, but this will be dependant on the camshaft used. As centerlines and over lap changes this drastically.

I also used a New MP crankshaft as the cost of doing the stock crank and the price of the new one were similar. So I opted for the new crank, but it wasn't without issues. Mainly because I use stock pistons and the skirts below the pin hit the counter weights on the crank about .060. So I machined the counter weights on the crank .150 and this left me with .090 crank to piston clearence. Now I'm using all stock replacement parts nothing hard to find. I also put a .200 valve relief in the top of the pistons for Int. and Exh. clearence. This gives me .065 on the intake and .85 on the exh. valve to piston clearence. But I checked them with thick margin 2.02 and 1.625 valves, so smaller valves will clear even better.

To lower the compression a little more for street use,how about this piston?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=UEM%2D1278060%2D8&autoview=sku

Comp height is 1.658. With an .028 head gasket and a 75 cc chamber, compression comes out at 9.73:1. This piston would be .001 above with cutting the deck .030. Find the right head gasket and you have your quench! This piston is a flat top truck piston. No valve notches so lift will be limited,but I bet it will make for a great 400 ft/lb + of torque plus it's light weight being cast. Best of all,it's cheap!

3.51"/2= 1.755" + 1.72"= 3.475" + 6.123"= 9.598"

Stock 360 stroke is 3.58, 1/2 of which is 1.79. Puts the piston .033 above deck with no deck cut.

Thats why I started looking for the above piston. But it has no valve reliefs.

So have the reliefs cut .200 in them, this is what I did to stock pistons.

BJR,thanks. I was having trouble locating the piston you recommended,thus the alternative KB.

I found the sterling piston last night at Campbell Enterprises.

I've got a 70 318 I've been saving for a build for years now. It came out of my first car so I'd like to get it built up for something one of these days. Having had a built 318 engine before, I'm aware of the capabilities these engines have. Thanks for the write up.

Interesting read but when I built my 360 ten years ago everybody would always say why not a 318? I would always answer: Because the salvage yard charges $150.00 for either one and it costs the same amount of money to rebuild either one, why wouldn't I want to do that?

Ten years later you can still find rebuildable 360's in the local wrecking yard and they are still $150.00. Seems if you are going to spend the money to build one up why not grab a 360 instead. If you already have a 318 lying around fine, sell it and take the money to get a 360 at the salvage yard. $150.00 is not even ten percent of the cost to build one right. Better yet stroke the 360 for even more power.

Better heads, more cubes, why not?

My $.02 worth..........

This thread is very interesting reading. Thanks for everyones input.

Interesting engine math on this one

Rod ratio: 1.84

Stroke to bore ratio: 91%

Rod angle: 16.99 Degree's

Piston speed @ 6500 rpm: 3878 FPM

My cam quest program shows massive gobs of torque,with a SMALL cam!

Comp 275DEH shows highest average tq at 162ft/lb, peak 415ft/lb and 398 h.p. Several other small cams show higher peak #s. This is with a pocket ported 360 head and big 2.02 intake valves,9.6:1 compression using an .040 over piston with 1.658 ch. Magnum heads will boost compression around 10:1.

BJR,at what point (how much lift can i use) will I run into piston/valve clearance problems using an LC371P piston with no valve reliefs? Got lucky and found a set! Looks like they have a slightly dished top. The pistons have a recessed head of .040” deep X 3.000” dia.

I have also come up with some possible pistons for this engine combo

Silvolite 1278. Think this one was mentioned already..

Badger P287

AE Clevite 2241930

What can you tell us about these pistons?

My approach will be a bit different from yours. Im looking to build as much low end tq as possible using a pump gas cr and cam. I want a stump puller for my heavy M body!

The lift will be determined by how much cam duration @ .050 and the centerline of the cam. So this I can't exactly tell you, as theres too many variables.

As for a stump puller, in your program put a set of 302 heads on your build with the small 1.78 intake valve and a 1.60 exh. valve with 210 cfm's and 120 cc's of port volume on the intake side and see what it shows. You might be very suprised at what it does.

I haven't checked out any of those pistons and instead just remachined the factory pistons now to work, this way the need to look for a special CH is gone. I just buy a good set of stock forged and machine them to the height that I need.

The lift will be determined by how much cam duration @ .050 and the centerline of the cam. So this I can't exactly tell you, as theres too many variables.

As for a stump puller, in your program put a set of 302 heads on your build with the small 1.78 intake valve and a 1.60 exh. valve with 210 cfm's and 120 cc's of port volume on the intake side and see what it shows. You might be very suprised at what it does.

I haven't checked out any of those pistons and instead just remachined the factory pistons now to work, this way the need to look for a special CH is gone. I just buy a good set of stock forged and machine them to the height that I need.

Hi Bobby! Thanks for the phone call! Sorry I had to cut you short...it was just investment crap. Apparently I'm down "only" 20% instead of the 50% I was a while ago. Markets are showing life after all...

Im trying to cheat a little by finding the right compression height and just cutting the deck. Deal with crank/skirt interference after I have the right piston..

Nice for you to have that vonage program. Apparently it's available only in the states?? Probably got to do with our CRTC branch closing the market to them.

What engine program are you using? I have camquest and DD dyno 2000. Ya it's a bit old...

No problem, I'll call you another day just let me know when it will be a better time.
As for programs I use Dynomation and Performance trends both are the Pro Tools versions with utilities. They are very accurate for engine performance and chassis setup's.

Here is some shots of a 344 CI engine with std bore setup which makes 344 CI instead of 349 but the idea is the same.

hi bobby
im really interested on doing this and while reading this i figured out why my engine runs like crap i only ported the intakes i want to find a set of 302 heads and have you work on them installing bigger exhaust valves and some port work question i have is will i have to get headers in order for it to work right or will my 70 hp manifolds be ok? also im running a M1 intake and a elderbrock 650 thunder series carb not sure on the bottom end it was previously redone before i got it but it does have .40 over pistons with valve reliefs i also want to change the cam in this aswell this is a street car would like it to have a rumpity,rump sound and still be dependable as i drive it back and forth to work

ef8340,
Hedders are always a help over the manifolds and will make most any combo work better.

What size engine are you talking about here? I need to know this before a cam can be spec'd. And is it a stock stroke or a stroker crank been added?

whoops im sorry its a 318 stock stroke 0.40 and has valve reliefs on the pistons as for the headers i can switch over too them but i was really kinda wanting to stick with the manifolds seeing as how i already have them and the exaust is all new i'll want to change the motor over to a 349 but kinda tight on funds right now but seeing how i'll need to fix my heads for my current prob i was thinking i'd be a step further im gonna look in some wrecking yards and look for the 302 cast heads or would i need a different type of head also a ruff guest of what this would cost [ just for the head work and correct thickness head gaskets ] im also running a 904 with stock converter and 323 gears
thanks terry

Terry,
302 heads are out there and sould be in most junk yards, and will work the best on a 318 but if a 349 engine is what your after then the 360 1.88/1.60 valve heads will work better and they are out there since 1967, so it's kind of take your pick as most all the castings have the same ports. IMHO I would go for a set of 915 J heads with 1.88/1.60 valve to start with. Hope this helps.

ok bobby,spill the beans,what crank,rods and pistons are being used in that 344?

The crank is a factory unit, and the rest of the internals is factory stock. Just remachined. The crank is the 3.58 stroke 318 mains unit from mopar perf. nothing special.

Just looks special.

Terry,
302 heads are out there and sould be in most junk yards, and will work the best on a 318 but if a 349 engine is what your after then the 360 1.88/1.60 valve heads will work better

If the 302 heads were gone over and the 1.88 and 1.60 valves were installed would they still work well on a 349? I already have a set of 302s that came on my donor engine and I like the idea of closed chambers.

Sure they'll work but you'll be limited on the amount of rpm's that you'll be able to turn with the engine. Because of the small port voulme, this is why I suggested the 360 heads be used on a 349 engine. If you looking for a good torque monster for the street then this would be the way that I would go also, but like I said the engine would be rpm limited with the 302 heads. Unless you have a ton of duration @ .050 but then this isn't very streetable.

I suppose you could use something like a 240-250 @ .050 with a 110 or a 112 lobe seperation and a 3500 converter and it would work. As the stroke will eat up some of the duration.

Hey Guy's,
Thanks for the 10K + views.

Thank-you for your help and insight. I picked up a set of 360 heads and am just starting to put together a parts list for a streetable 344. You opened my eyes to a power output I didn think was possible with that kind of investment. Sorry for any bad grammar or spelling, the letters are overlapping when I dont want them to, cant turn it off right now, or dont know how...
I hate computers sometimes...
Tom

Hey Guys - as Bobby says, I have a flat 13sec 349 at 10.2:1 comp.

My problem all along has been Piston to Valve clearance at zero deck.

I can tell you that even with my fairly mild .495 lift 234@.50 cam and lightly skimmed 360 open chamber heads, , my valves hit the slugs big time, and we had to do some 'shade tree" cuts in the slugs to get away without dis-assembling the engine.

(see pic)

Bobby - How deep did you notch those slugs of yours, because I was "advised" by United Engines that i shouldn't notch the Silvolite cast slugs at all when I was considering rebuilding the 349......

http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr34/TheRatPatrol/stage%202/P1010047.jpg

Mal,
The notches are .200 deep, this is good for NA engines and for NOS .150 should be the max for the valve pockets. We've been valve relieving cast pistons for years without any problems, but we don't run cylinder pressures over 175 either.

On the issue of what pistons to use- the guy that built mine used forged SP226P TRWs with 100th off the top to achieve the zero deck - trouble is he forgot to measure the P-V clearance at overlap.......

Those hand ground reliefs are about .055 deep, so a forged slug with a lower comp height that needs less off the top would probably work pretty well.......

Mal,
If the piston comes out of the block just do like I did and chamfer the top edge ans let it stick up into the open part of the chamber. You just have to have the valve pocket large enough to get around the hump in the head where the valve seat is casted in the head. So a 2.10 valve pocket should be enough for a 2.02 valve. This is what I did on the cast pistons in the pictures, I also chamfered the edge of the piston to put it .015 below deck so I could run a thin gasket and this allows the piston to act like a dome style going up into the chamber and creating a quench like a close chamber head.

I suppose you could use something like a 240-250 @ .050 with a 110 or a 112 lobe seperation and a 3500 converter and it would work. As the stroke will eat up some of the duration.

In regards to this comment Bobby thats close to what i have in my combo and im close to getting it to the track. Mines a 256 @.50 108 lsa and a 3200 stall with 3.55 gears @ 3150lbs including driver.

Hysteric

I still have to finish the heads for mine and may be able to get to them by the end of the week comming up. I would like to have it in and running by the end of the month and have a time slip or two. I'm realistically looking for some mid to upper 6 sec. 1/8 mile times. This way I can take the car to Commerce next year for the nationals, and run in Super Street, which is 10.90 1/4 mile. 6.50 = about a 10.40 1/4 mile, 6.70 is about a 10.70 1/4.

i wish i would have seen this thread about 6 months ago i could have saved about $8000
for the price anybody building a stroker is crazy this would save a fortune and get equal performance

bobby what would the cost be if you did the machine work and the build?

I never really sat down and figured it out but I would guess it would be about $6,500.00 complete ready to run. This includes all machining and porting and all parts from intake to pan. And by cutting .050 off the pistons makes it very streetable. This combo shows to make 626 HP @ 6,500 and 545 ft. lbs. @ 4,500 and 5,000 rpms. 222 hp and 389 tq @ 3,000 rpms but this is more of a race engine than street. This engine will have small chamber heads and the compression will be 14.68:1 but the cylinder PSI will be in the 170 psi range due to the cam being used. If a smaller cam is to be used then the larger head like a 360 head and a thick head gasket would be in order. This would put the compression ratio in the 10.25 to 10.5 range with minimal decking of the heads or block.

First we'll start with a 318 block (rebuilder) as they are plentiful, then we'll get a 360 crank and turn the mains down to 318 specs. this runs about $200.00 to do. We are going to use the factory 6.123 rods, and low compression 318 pistons which are 1.72 compression height. Next we are going to align hone and deck the block to clean and square deck all 4 corners. Price will vary as to your local. This is more info on what to do and not priced as price can vary. So now we have a block that measures 9.570 after decking .030. As most used blocks are generally out .020 to .030 from core settleing and thermal cycles, some may be taller as they are only castings. Now this is where we are 9.570 actual deck height less the rod lenght, and the compression distance, and stroke. Half of 3.58 is 1.79 on stroke.

9.570-1.79=7.780 minus rod lenght of 6.123= 1.657 less the compression distance of 1.72= .063 above the deck. Now we'll take a corteco head gasket of .055 which now we have .008 above the gasket. Or for racing use a .022 mopar gasket and have .033 more compression for a total of .041 above the gasket.

Next we'll go to the heads, for a 349 CI we'll need the 360 heads to get enough port volume and air flow. By my calulations we'll need 166 cc's of port volume and 266 cfms to supply enough air and we'll be useing the 1.88 intake valves and 1.60 exhaust valves to help keep the port velocity up. This is fairly easy to get when mildly ported. As for the chambers they have been in the .095 to .105 in chamber depth stock, at the area where the quench would be. So now we have a positive deck of .041 with the gasket in place, or .008 depending on which gasket is being used. In this case we'll use the thinner gasket so we'll be .041 above the deck. Now the deck is .095 less the positive deck of .041 and we now have a quench of .051 so we'll deck the heads to true them up, generally this takes .010 to .012 so now we have a total quench of .039 to .041 which is what most would like to have as total quench. This now yeilds 12.21:1 this is why this is a race setup, the thicker head gasket will yeild about 11.5:1. If it doesn't take as much to deck the heads or the block then this will change to a lower compression and be more streetable.

Next we'll go to the camshaft, for our example were useing a comp cams .540 /300 drag race cam with 255 @ .050. For this cam the pistons will have to be notched, so we notched them .200 as the pistons are forged and are .400 thick. This is about as far as you can go safely. We'll be useing 1.6 ratio rockers so the lift is .576 but the lash is .026 and we have to subtract .010 for the loss of valve lift due to the grind for mopars. Now we have a actual net lift of .540. So with the valve reliefs we should have .100-.130 valve to piston clearence depending on the gasket thickness.

Next we'll go to the intake manifold, this I leave up to the end user for what they want. But for our application we used the M-1 intake as we had it, from another engine. And we'll top it off with a holley carb 850 cfm with 83 and 88 jets and no power valves.

Next we went to the exhaust as we used hedders the were from dyno-max as they were inexpensive and could get them locally. They were the 1 5/8 street type as we didn't want to get to large as we only have 349 CI's and the bore won't support much more, and neither will the heads.

So now to some this up we have a 318 with a 360 crank and stock rods and pistons of the forged type. Stock type heads with work done and a M-1 intake and a street type hedders. A good cam and valve train and oiling system to support this type of engine. The preliminary tests have shown 578 HP @ 6500 and 507 TQ @ 5000, and 506 FT. lbs. @ 4500. So it has a nice broad torque curve. Even in lessor trim it should still have over 500 HP and 450 in torque and be streetable.

Our cost in this engine with all machine work and parts we have $4,400.00 invested. A cast piston version with less cam would be roughly $500.00 less. Not bad for a engine like this when a crate engine costs about the same and wouldn't have the quality or the power.

But it does show what can be done with available parts and some time if your a do it your selfer, other than machine work. I'm guessing that you may be able to save $1,000.00 or more.
This is for information only and just something that we wanted to play with.



This is a great idea! Now I have a 318 that was punched out .040 because I was going to do this build
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/mopar/0667em_mopar_318_engine/index.html

But I like yours better. Now what kind of effect will I get where my block is 40 thou over? Positive? negative? I am just like the rest of the human race and want bigger, faster, better.
Thanks!

What kind of pistons and cam are you planning on using? The .040 won't hurt you any.

Hey Bobby,

I steered Jeff in the 349 direction. I am going to supply him with a set of heads and a 360 crank. Everything will need to be freshened. I believe he can use the 318 rods he has if I am not mistaken. He wants an engine that has plenty of grunt but still will run on 91 octane. He will have to buy some pistons. What would you recommend? The cam should be chosen with street manners bordering on the higher end. He has a standard tranny in a 71 Demon with a 8 3/4 rear. At present I believe he has 3:23 gears but may move to 3:91's.

Jack

Thanks Jack....what he said. The cam I had looked at was a comp xe275hc, but that was only because it was used in the other build. I had looked at a set of flat top Hypereutectic pistons, but again, what would you suggest? I will give you a call tomorrow afternoon, i missed your call tonight.

Jack,
He doesn't want to run the small 318 rods unless they are the truck or HD units and at that point they will be 360 rods. The cheapest way to do this engine is to get a stock replacement piston and cut about .075 off the top and this will put you about .010 below deck. This way the compression won't be too high and the cam won't need any valve to piston clearencing.

I'm trying to finish up the 344 engine but I machined the pistons differently as to have compression, and used small chamber heads. My compression ratio works out to be 14.96:1, then with 107 OL cam and the cylinder pressure comes out to be 180 psi.. With all the tricks that I could find and use the engine on the computer aided design (CAD) system shows 638 HP @ 6500 RPM and 542 TQ @ 5000 RPM. This should be enough engine to get me where I need to be in S/ST NHRA. I wnat this engine in and running this Saturday so I can test it on Sunday. But this is if the weather holds out as there forcasting rain on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

Hey Bobby,

I believe the rods are still good out of the locked up block I have. I will have to have a look tonight. I suspect I will have to break a piston or two to get them out though. I have to look at the heads tonight to, I can't remember if they are closed chamber or not, but I don't think so. We should know what we have to work with tonight and we can go from there to get Jeff his high horsepower, low buck engine. I checked the crank out last night and other than a little rust on the snout it looks good. That is no biggie.
I hope you can make it to the track on the weekend. I would like to know what that engine does in real life. We know all about rain here, it hasn't stopped for more than an hour since last Friday.

Jack

Jack,
On the 360 crank it will need to be cut on the counter weights about .100 to clear the pistons with stock compression distance, then rebalanced and you should be good to go.

As for the this weekend I'll let you know asap, I just returned from the warehouse and picked up the final gaskets that I needed and the JG BR oil, so as of now everything is still a go for the weekend.

This have been a great thread, I have been torn as what to build for a future motor for my 64 Valiant, since I already have a 72 318 in the car your alls recipes will help me build a great engine for street use. The current engine is a .30 over 318 block , with 3671587 cast head, with 1.88/160 valves, mildly ported, 340 factory Mopar purple cam, windage tray, LD4B/600 cfm, pertronixs, with factory exhaust manifolds....all that gave me a whooping 225 hp with 275 LBS torque.....Wow, with what you have out lined.......I could break the 400 hp mark and scare the shit out of myself.........all with a 318........

64,
You really need more than a 600 cfm carb to supply the engine, I don't run less than a 750 VS carb on the street. The TQ were 800 cfm's so why would anyone want to run less of a carb?

Also too you hurt the performance on the 318 by using the 360 heads, the engine would make more power and respond better with a good set of 318 heads with the same work done to them.

I thought or read that the the heads I have are 318, I had the heads cut for the bigger valves? I am using the 600 cfm carb because I got a good deal on it and it was new in the box (75 dollars). I would love to use 302 heads and some spitfire headers, have thought of building my own flow bench to port the 302's, unfourtunately the availability of anything Mopar around me is slim, and when anything goes to the scrapyard it is gone before I get there. I have a set of Dak Headers that have some potenial to be cut and fitted. I have had to get creatative with what I could find and afford. One of these days I would like to build a nice street motor out of a 318.....and you all have given me hope it can be done...
I will be reading and taking notes......


You really need more than a 600 cfm carb to supply the engine, I don't run less than a 750 VS carb on the street. The TQ were 800 cfm's so why would anyone want to run less of a carb?

Also too you hurt the performance on the 318 by using the 360 heads, the engine would make more power and respond better with a good set of 318 heads with the same work done to them.[/quote]

64,
Your right I read too fast and looked at the casting number wrong, but still the intake valve is too large for the 318 head casting and port volume. The exh. valve would be fine as the 318 head is really hurting on the exh. side more so than the intake side.

Well, I have the engine done and going in the car today so hopefully after some detailing I'll have the engine fired up today. Then a change of the break in oil and we should be ready to go to the track on Sunday, but they increased the chances for rain so hopefully it will hold off so I can get a couple of passes on the new engine and get a base line for the car and chassis. I'll know more this afternoon.

What are your thoughts on degreeing the cam?
I have a Purple Shaft Cam
Adv. Duration: .268°/272°
Dur. @ .050'': 228°/231°
Lift: .450''/.455''
Centerline: 110°
Basic RPM: 1500-5800 RPM
I will redo a set of heads in the future, 302 castings if I can find them.
How much carb can I use for street/ strip...this is in a 2700 lb car
I am learning so any and all info gets written down. If I remember when I bought my short block it was .30 over with 4 valve relief pistons. How much is too much when milling 318 heads, are there any castings that are as good as the 302's if I can't find them. When I pull my motor for freshening I will go through it and have the block gone over, prepped for the 360 crank. Looking forward to looking stock and clean clock......Thanks for all the info..

64,
To get the most out of any camshaft you really need to degree it in. Most cams aren't ground perfectly as the specs. would have us think. Any cam thats custom ground should be right on spec. this is why you pay so much for them. Also degreeing the cam will help eliminate any mistakes that the cam grinder would have made in centerlines. Most el cheapo cams have something wrong with them or they wouldn't be so cheap, most times it's the centerlines that off. I degree every cam that I use, and any engine builder worth there salt should also. This is part of the reason that most engines don't run like they should. IMO

Well the engine is in and running but not without a few small problems, like the oil line decided to start leaking or had a small crack in it right at the fitting. Then the valve covers didn't seal as they were a friends that I borrowed, but I can't complain he offered but I guess it just wasn't in the cards. But a new set of Moroso covers will be here next week so that will cure that problem, and a new ferrel fixed the oil line. Now I have to do the break in and change the oil and jet the carb up as it built heat very, very quickly and it shouldn't have. But thats a simple fix also, something to do tomorrow. I also have to set the timing. But hey it's up and running so I figured that I would have some bugs to fix, at least it's nothing major.

Well didn't get a chance to run the engine as of yet. While looking at everything yesterday I noticed what looked like oil splashed on the inside of the front tire. But to find out that one of the Drag Front's was actually very, very dry rotted and cracked. Now keep in mind that these tires were purchased just 8 months ago new. The other tire was just like new, so it was a good thing that I didn't go yesterday as this may have been a accident waiting to happen. And with the expense that I have both in time and $$$$ in the car I don't need to see if the rollbars will work like they should.

Just another set back that has to be addressed. I'm going this morning to see what the company will do about the tire and if they have had this problem before. Heck the matting rib from where they put the tire together is still very visable in the center of the tire and they don't have more than 50 runs on them. Hopefully they'll do something about it, and maybe send the tire back for inspection and cause.

Well, Finally recieved a new tire yesterday from Mickey Thompson at no charge, so hopefully this friday night I will get to see what the new engine does. I'm mainly going for T-N-T for the first night, and if everything go's right in time trials then maybe I would go in to race. But you just don't know whats going to happen. I should have some numbers on Saturday. The engine sounds very very strong, so if this is any indication this thing is going to fly. But we'll wait and see.

Good Luck Bobby! And keep us updated.

Jack

Dang I like this thread...........I probably would not have done my 410 stroker if I came across this earlier...........dang it would have saved me about 7k

As for the chambers they have been in the .095 to .105 in chamber depth stock,

So now we have a positive deck of .041 with the gasket in place, or .

For this cam the pistons will have to be notched, so we notched them .200 as the pistons are forged and are .400 thick.

Now we have a actual net lift of .540.

So with the valve reliefs we should have .100-.130 valve to piston clearence depending on the gasket thickness.

Hi Bobby

Ive quoted the important bits, but I cant figure how you have enough P-V clearance.

You have a net lift of .540, but by my reckoning, you only have:

Chamber depth of .095 less + deck of .041 = .054

+ piston notches of 200th = .254th clearance.

Call me dumb but how will the valves not hit the slugs if the lift is over twice the clearance??

Mal,
As you quoted above, I'll explain what happends. If the piston is .041 above the deck with the gasket in place, and the chamber is .095 deep, you have to take .095 - .041 = .054 at TDC + .200 for the valve relief in the piston, and you end up with .254 at TDC. Now the valves are closed at this point and as the valve starts to open, the piston starts to move down. Sometimes the valve opens sooner than the piston starts to move and this is why the pockets have to be so deep in the pistons. To take up the additional movement of the valve and to keep from hitting the pistons.

The valve doesn't get to full lift until BDC or just before. At this point the piston is 3" away from the valves. As the valves open the piston moves away and the valve vritually chases the pistons down the bore. The oppisite happends with the exh. valve. It opens just before BDC and the piston chases the valve closed so the pressure that the piston makes comming up the cylinder bore pushes the spent gasses out the exh. port and into the hedders. But usually the exh. valve doesn't need to be as deep as the intake valve pocket as the valve is further up in the chamber and further from the deck surface. But this is all dependant in the centerlines and duration at .050, which would open or close the valves eariler or later depending on how the cam is ground.

This is where the machinist really needs to know his stuff to make a high compression engine work with tight clearences. Hopefully you understand it now.

Very good explanation Bobby. I knew that was how it worked but I never could have explained it to somebody that good. LOL

Jack

Jack,
I guess he was thinking that the valve is a full lift at TDC and at this point the valve would hit the piston.

In the 344 engine which is a std. bore 318 instead of .030. I used a stock cheater cam and a set of 318 heads. The heads have .120 in stock uncut form from the deck to the chamber roof at the quench area. I used the 1.78 intake valves and the 1.60 exh. valves. This way I have high compression and a good quench as the piston comes out of the block .075 and I used a .020 MP head gasket so the piston sticks up out of the hole .055. Then I machined the top of the piston as shown eariler, so that the top of the piston would go into the open part of the chamber and make my quench .038 after machining the heads to match. This way I can use the open style heads from eariler years. This gives me close to 15:1 but a cyl. pressure of only 150 @ cranking, because of the bleed off of the cams overlap. According to my program it should make 638 HP @ 6,500 rpms and 542 ft. lbs @ 4,500 rpms. And it sounds like it too.

The heads flow 215 @ .400 lift and the cam opens to .473 int. and .494 on the exh. CL is 106 straight up. The 318 heads also flow 198 @ .300 with the small valves. The exh. peak flow is 207 @ .600 lift but this is just for reference as the cam doesn't open this far. I'm looking for solid 6 sec. passes in the 1/8 Friday night. But once again will see as anything can happen.

Oh the cam has 275/272 @ .050 duration.

Jack,
I guess he was thinking that the valve is a full lift at TDC and at this point the valve would hit the piston.

Sort of - I assumed the valves and pistons would play "tag" with each other.

I have two more questions.........

At TDC both valves are closed...so this clearance issue only occurrs on the "overlap" or second cycle of the crank, correct?

Also - In your experience what duration and lift would you say that this all starts getting too "tight" for a zero deck fly cut slug with an open chamber head?

What are the valve sizes, and the cam used?
As for which cycle it occurs at will depend on the cam and how it's been ground. The cam it self creates this problem with a 0 deck piston. Most aftermarket pistons have the valve reliefs already in them and deep enough for a large cam.

As for the piston and cam comming together I would say 0 deck and 240 or greater duration @ .050 and less than 108 centerlines.

As for the piston and cam comming together I would say 0 deck and 240 or greater duration @ .050 and less than 108 centerlines.

Thats what I was after , thanx Bobby - just wanted an appx for when things get "close" using factory flat tops with shallow reliefs.

BJR,
Did you get your car out on the track?? If so how did you do??

Well, It's like this, on Thursday afternoon when we finished making changes and fired the engine again, everything sounded real good, oil pressure was up to 75 psi. Everything sounding strong and just double checking everything. Then the engine just quits like you turned the ignition off. Go to restart the engine and it won't turn. Water level is fine so out with the plugs and all are dry and looking like they should until the last one. The plug came out real hard, keep in mind I just put these plugs in so I know that there wasn't any issues with them. Upon taking the plug out of #5 cylinder the tip was gone. The engine never made a noise, but just quit. Then after some thought I took the head and intake off and found that a valve on the #5 exh. had broken the head of the valve off and lodged between the head and the piston. Needless to say the piston is trashed and will be replaced. I'll need to put a seat in the head also. When the valve broke the valve head flipped over using the valve stem as a punching tool and punched 4 nice little holes in the top of the piston, before jamming the engine. So I never made it to the track, man what a dissapointment. But hey life go's on.

So today I pulled the pan and removed the rod and piston and found no metal in the pan except the 4 punched out pieces of piston. Everything in the bottom end was as clean as when built. So I have another piston but will need to get another intake and exh valve. Just go's to show that even the best parts fail. It looked like the valve wasn't fully heat treated properly, and how are we to know what the valve is when you take it out of the box. You can only trust the manufacture with there product. But hey S**T happends, it's a part of racing and engine building, as most go right some don't, this just happens to be one of the times that it didn't.

Being that I have a piston here I'll only be out about $100.00 for oil and rings and a rod bearing. I have more head gaskets and intake gaskets so if anything went right I guess that you could say it did. As it could have been much worse, good thing it was idleing, but 1,300 rpm's still did a good bit of damage.

Now there calling for rain for the next 10 days here, so this gives me time to get the parts fixed and reassembled. I'll be ready for the next time. So sorry for no news on the engine. But we took 2 other cars and made it down to 3 cars again with one of them. So all in all the weekend turned out OK as the money that we made will fix the engine. But hey we'll get it, it's just a small set back. I guess the time wasn't right for it yet, but I'll let you know as soon as I get the chance to get it there.

Well, It's like this, on Thursday afternoon when we finished making changes and fired the engine again, everything sounded real good, oil pressure was up to 75 psi. Everything sounding strong and just double checking everything. Then the engine just quits like you turned the ignition off. Go to restart the engine and it won't turn. Water level is fine so out with the plugs and all are dry and looking like they should until the last one. The plug came out real hard, keep in mind I just put these plugs in so I know that there wasn't any issues with them. Upon taking the plug out of #5 cylinder the tip was gone. The engine never made a noise, but just quit. Then after some thought I took the head and intake off and found that a valve on the #5 exh. had broken the head of the valve off and lodged between the head and the piston. Needless to say the piston is trashed and will be replaced. I'll need to put a seat in the head also. When the valve broke the valve head flipped over using the valve stem as a punching tool and punched 4 nice little holes in the top of the piston, before jamming the engine. So I never made it to the track, man what a dissapointment. But hey life go's on.

So today I pulled the pan and removed the rod and piston and found no metal in the pan except the 4 punched out pieces of piston. Everything in the bottom end was as clean as when built. So I have another piston but will need to get another intake and exh valve. Just go's to show that even the best parts fail. It looked like the valve wasn't fully heat treated properly, and how are we to know what the valve is when you take it out of the box. You can only trust the manufacture with there product. But hey S**T happends, it's a part of racing and engine building, as most go right some don't, this just happens to be one of the times that it didn't.

Being that I have a piston here I'll only be out about $100.00 for oil and rings and a rod bearing. I have more head gaskets and intake gaskets so if anything went right I guess that you could say it did. As it could have been much worse, good thing it was idleing, but 1,300 rpm's still did a good bit of damage.

Now there calling for rain for the next 10 days here, so this gives me time to get the parts fixed and reassembled. I'll be ready for the next time. So sorry for no news on the engine. But we took 2 other cars and made it down to 3 cars again with one of them. So all in all the weekend turned out OK as the money that we made will fix the engine. But hey we'll get it, it's just a small set back. I guess the time wasn't right for it yet, but I'll let you know as soon as I get the chance to get it there.

That SUCKS! Can even happen with stock stuff...

BJR RACING,

Stuff does happen. We all appreciate your Honesty and Integrity to take the time and tell it like it is. I very much appreciate the time and energy you have put into this post...........for sure I WILL be building this combination in the near future but it will be only in HOT street trim with lower compression and forged parts...............

Would you ever think about throwing some nitrous at this same combination?? Would it be able to take it??

Thanks a bunch!!

Mad Dart,
You could put NOS to it without any problems, but the amount that you could use would be less, as the compression ratio is fairly high. I suppose that it would handle a 250 or 300 shot pretty well. And maybe more with stronger rods and pistons. Because the piston comes out of the deck so far that you would have to cut about .060 off the top of the pistons and this would put you near 10.5:1, with the pistons still being out about .015-.020. Then camming it properly for NOS it should make a very good street engine, and depending on how much NOS you intend to use, this engine could make between 500 and 750 HP and still be streetable.

That just sucks Bobby. At least it didn't happen at the 1/8 mile mark where it probably would have ventilated the block. Congrats on getting down to 3, that is some consolation anyway.

Jack

Thanks Jack,
I must say that we've been pretty fortunate that we have extra cars to race with. And out of the last 11 times to the track we've been either in the winner circle or in the money 7 of those times. And always to 3 or 4 cars if we didn't win it.

Mad Dart,
You could put NOS to it without any problems, but the amount that you could use would be less, as the compression ratio is fairly high. I suppose that it would handle a 250 or 300 shot pretty well. And maybe more with stronger rods and pistons. Because the piston comes out of the deck so far that you would have to cut about .060 off the top of the pistons and this would put you near 10.5:1, with the pistons still being out about .015-.020. Then camming it properly for NOS it should make a very good street engine, and depending on how much NOS you intend to use, this engine could make between 500 and 750 HP and still be streetable.

I would only hit it with a 150 shot maxxx. 10.5:1 would work work well for my application on the street.....250 to 300 is WAY out of my league. Dang that is alot.......WOW!! I think I would Crap my pants from the anxiety just before I hit a 250-300 shot. I would almost think that without a R3 block it would squeeze out the gaskets with that much juice.

Nope we've had 500 shot on a stock block but we had to O ring the heads and block. Along with copper gaskets.

You guys are animals......Right on!!!!!!! So a 150 shot would be no problem at all. Thanks...

Cast pistons will take that much NOS.

I believe that they would, but I just would not feel comfortable doing it. I myself would use forged just for the added security. I am a big SISSY when it comes to that.

We used a 350 shot on a set of KB's, so it's not so much the material of the part but more getting the NOS/fuel mix right and they all will live. NOS will wipe out the best pistons, as it doesn't discriminate. Usually when it does it usually means that something else is wrong, weather it is timing or fuel or the wrong NOS pill, but something is out of cink.

I fully agree with you.

I know of a guy that has a totally stock small block and he throws 2 stages at it, 250 out of the hole and 400 on top.

http://s544.photobucket.com/albums/hh331/meen318/

Well as you all know I don't take too much time off from fixing things, The new piston has been valve reliefed and chamfered, tomorrow night I'll have It balanced and the new rod brg. and pushrod will be in hand. I'll have the rings too. Gaskets are here and then just the time to get it together and run. Hopefully it will be this week, but work dictates everything. But it won't be from lack of effert.

Well, here is what it looked like. And the replacement. Hopefully I can have it running again tomorrow.

Yeew!! Thats "ordinary"!

Hey the way that I look at it is, if it's not made to the specs. that I need then I'll build it to what I need out of a good quality part.

Nice piston top. Get a picture frame for that one.

Well I got it back together and then the rain came, so maybe tomorrow I'll get it fired up. Unless it quits here shortly, if it does I'll here the sweet sound of music.

Well I got it back together and then the rain came, so maybe tomorrow I'll get it fired up. Unless it quits here shortly, if it does I'll here the sweet sound of music.

Dang man you dont mess around.........you made really good time on it.
Did you Pull the engine or do it in the car?? I assume you pulled it.

Yep and this is just another option, and the journals will both be std. Good point Adam.

Do you have enough clearance between the bottom of the piston and the crank throws at bottom of the stroke. I rember this done on a 360 using low compression 340 pistons, (371CI) they had to machine some material from the piston bottom below the pin boss for crank clearance. Than there is getting it all to ballance.
I've had good luck with .030 over 360 and price is low.

Dang man you dont mess around.........you made really good time on it.
Did you Pull the engine or do it in the car?? I assume you pulled it.

No I did it in the car, when it broke on Thursday we had it apart in about 45 min.. I'm using a rear sump pan so it made it easy to get the pan down. This is in my race car so it's very accessable. Everything can be had by air wrench.

Do you have enough clearance between the bottom of the piston and the crank throws at bottom of the stroke. I rember this done on a 360 using low compression 340 pistons, (371CI) they had to machine some material from the piston bottom below the pin boss for crank clearance. Than there is getting it all to ballance.
I've had good luck with .030 over 360 and price is low.

What I did and maybe should have done it differently but, I cut the counter weights on the crank .150 to lighten the crank and this also made the pistons clear. I had to add 7 pieces of mallory metal but I also internally balanced the crank. Now on a buddy of mines we cut the crank on the counterweights the same way, but externally balanced his. His took 3 or 4 pieces of mallory, but it sure spins up quick.

No I did it in the car, when it broke on Thursday we had it apart in about 45 min.. I'm using a rear sump pan so it made it easy to get the pan down. This is in my race car so it's very accessable. Everything can be had by air wrench.

Good Job!
I remember when I was a kid doing it on a 70 318 dart. Had a rod knock with no cash to spare, did an in car repair. Took some time with the pan. Rod knock went away though 2 days labor and about 20.00 for the bearing and gaskets. That was a LONGGGGG time ago.

WooHoo, The rain has stopped so lets get it fired.

Hopefully Friday night I'll make some test runs, we have a 40% chance of rain as of now. But hey that means that we have a 60% chance that it won't rain.

Bummer, they just upped the % by 20% and they now have 60% chance on Friday. Oh well next week they are now showing 20% on Friday, maybe then.

WooHoo, The rain has stopped so lets get it fired.

Hopefully Friday night I'll make some test runs, we have a 40% chance of rain as of now. But hey that means that we have a 60% chance that it won't rain.

Did you get it fired off?

Yep, it's back up and running. Sounds very strong as it did before the valve issue. With this engine and the high compression ratio that it has, you can feel the pulsations in the chassis of the car from every cylinder fireing. Very crisp sound and instantainous rpm's. Should be fun. Thats why I can't wait til race day.

Cool great news. Maybe you could post a video of the car running for all of us who have been following this post. That would be awsome.

With your paticular build how high could you spin it? It seems that it still makes a lot of power up top. Would 7k to 7500 be out of it's league? What about if it was cammed a little different?

Thanks again

6,500 is where the power peaks and then falls quickly, so turning it any harder is not necessary. It would go higher but the cam would have to have alot more lift and then the compression ratio would have to come down some. Or a meeting of the parts would happen. Also too the engine is cammed for the heads and the flow that they have. So adding a larger cam to this engine would be a waste. Thats whats so nice about this engine, it makes alot of HP and TQ without the high $$$$$ parts. I'm going to be doing one for a customer for the street with 10.5 compression next month.

Got it.
I will be calling you for some assistance on machining me some parts for this build. I have a set of stripped 360 j heads that may work for this new build. I need to have them checked for cracks etc.

On the 360 heads make sure that the hump where the intake valve seats is, is below the deck or the pistons will have to be cut for a 2.20 intake valve so the hump will fit into the valve relief. If above deck is desired. The other option is to cut the top of the piston to clear the chamber hump. Or 0 deck the piston. 0 deck would be the way for a street engine. You would have to know the deck height after the deck has been squared to do this.

I Am out of town for a week. I will check it out next week.

6,500 is where the power peaks and then falls quickly, so turning it any harder is not necessary. It would go higher but the cam would have to have alot more lift and then the compression ratio would have to come down some. Or a meeting of the parts would happen. Also too the engine is cammed for the heads and the flow that they have. So adding a larger cam to this engine would be a waste. Thats whats so nice about this engine, it makes alot of HP and TQ without the high $$$$$ parts. I'm going to be doing one for a customer for the street with 10.5 compression next month.

Love this thread.

Let us know how the customers car goes as well if he runs it!

Keep up the mad work bobby!

I don't think that he will run the car on the track, as it's going into a very nice 74 Cuda, B5 blue with white interior. He mainly wants it for street use and have the power to kick some butt if need be.

DAmn :(

Hey don't worry as were in the process of getting one ready for a buddy of mines duster, that the 322 is in and then we'll be able to give you what it should do in a street car.

Thats what i want to hear!
:D

Bobby,

I sent you a PM............

Well Friday looks good weather wise and I've been ready. Just went out and fired the car again and man it had a big smile on its face. The weather for Friday is showing to be 92* and I'm sure about 80% humidity, so the corrected altitude will be some where in the 3800 to 4200 ft elevation, but who knows. I'll let you all know what it does on Saturday.

Well as I figured that there would be some tuning to be done, and there was. The first pass the engine was way, way too rich for the air that we had last night. So I dejetted the front and made another pass. The first pass was a 7.73, the second was a 7.63 so I was in the right direction. Then on the third pass I dejetted the rear jets and left the front alone. I figured that I would try to give the engine a little help as the track was hooking real hard. So I put more air in the tires from 11.5 to 12.5 lbs.. The car responded by running 7.61. Then I put another 1lbs. of air in and retarded the timing just a few degrees so now I'm at 13.5 lbs of air. I go back and make another pass and the car runs 7.478. At this point time trials are comming to a end so I had to leave things as they were.

I go in for the run for the money (basically another time run but paid for) in this closest to the dial in without braking out or red lighting wins the money. In this you only have 1 shot at it. So I dial in at 7.47 and the car runs a 7.493. But they didn't have super pro so I backed up to foot brake class. Figuring that the car would be slower I dial in a 7.54 and to my surprise the car decides to run like a scalded dog. I drive it to about 500 ft or so and lift and hit the brakes thinking that I'm surly not braking out and the car runs a 7.49 on a 7.54. Man I killed 13 mph.

Being how much that I dropped it by and how far I went under the dial, this thing was on a low 7.30 run or quicker. So in the 3rd round I dial a 7.35, the car leaves with the wheels up and man this thing is on another good run. The only thing that I was thinking of was just dont brakeout. So I'm shifting the gears and this thing is pulling hard, I get it to high gear and something feels like it's holding back or putting a heavy drag on something. I get about 80 feet from the finish line and the car locks the wheels up and I'm sliding across the finish line. The car is now stopped about 100 feet past the finish. I cut all the swiches off and get out. The emergency crew comes hauling butt to me to see if I was OK. I was fine but don't know what happened, some said that I broke a rearend, and others said that they could see sparks comming out from under the car, and yet some others said that there were bright blue flames comming out from the hedders. To me from inside the car it acted like the timing was way too far retarded, but I knew that this wasn't the problem, but it sounded like this. Popping and back firing out the exh. But anyway something broke. I was thinking how happy I was to have just put a new transmission blanket on the car. Later after talking to some spectators I knew that the rear end was fine as the car rolls easy and no clunking. So now it has to be either in the engine or transmission. The thing is it never dropped a ounce of fluid from anywhere. Oil pressure was up and the temp was fine, but something has the engine locked where it won't turn over. As of this time I'm not sure what happened, but I'll have a look today to see if I can see anything. When we looked last night everything looked normal. But where were the sparks comming from. I'm thinking that maybe the converter bolts were comming loose and one of them lodged between the block and the flywheel. But I'll have to get it apart one day this week and see, if I get the time.

From others that I was talking to, they figure something in the transmission gave up. As the engine was running to smooth and pulling to hard. But as of now everything has to come apart and be checked. Including the engine, transmission, and rear end. I'm not taking any chances of this happening again. Next time I may not be as lucky. Good thing I have a fresh Big block and trans. ready, so guess whats going in next. I'll let everyone know what I find when I find something.

Glad you're alright is the main thing. If it in the trans it really had to lock down hard to start a slide that long. I bet that was a scary little trip.

Marlan,
It went from running somewhere around 90-100 mph to 0 quick. Believe me it got my full attention. We took the plugs out today and found that every plug was colsed up and silver looking, like they were coated like alumni-coating them. But how, when they can't be hit by the pistons did they get this way? Well after more inspection it burned every piston in every cylinder, and between the pistons comming apart and the heat in the chambers it kept the valve open on #2 cylinder which when you have close tolerences isn't a pretty site. So now I know where the sparks came from and the bright flashes out of the hedders.

I'd like to have aluminum heads but not this way, although they were coated very nicely. So next time I'm going to drop the compression down a bit and run a bit thicker head gasket, maybe a bigger chamber head.

I wonder if now that they are coated, that they will dissapate heat quicker? LOL. Oh well I'll fix the engine when I can and try it again. But it will be the end of this year or first part of next year, as the Big block will be going in, in the next few weeks. Hey it's nothing that can't be fixed, it's just going to take some time. And as this is play work must come first.

Thanks for you concern!

I like the big block better anyhow! LOL

Crazy!
Glad to hear your ok though bobby.

Your best time that day,
what would that equate to on the quarter mile roughly?

nemesis,
The 7.478 would be a 11.50 or so. But had I not lifted it would have run a low 7.30 or upper 7.20 with ease. But you have to keep in mind that this was only the first runs on the engine, and it was still freeing up and the tune up wasn't where it really need to be. Also to the air temp. went from upwards of 100* to upper 70's to low 80's in a few hours, so trying to keep the tuneup right and on the first day without enough time in between rounds may have caused the problem.

The 7.30 or 7.20 that it may have run would have put the engine running in the low 11's. A low compression version of this engine should be able to run upper 11's with ease. Keep in mind also that I was running a .473/.494 lift hyd. cam with 107* of overlap. When I redo the engine I may change the camshaft to something smaller, and then the compression won't have to be as high. I was really looking for the engine to run in the upper 6's which would put the engine running upper 10's in the 1/4. Had it not had the problem I believe that the next time out with more tuning it would have gone that fast. From the start to where I finished on the first day was 3 to 4 tenths faster, but not where it should have been. But I just ran out ot time for tuning.

Would I do this combo again, yep. It's a very powerful combo. And it will be again. The nice part about this is it can be vary streetable with less compression, and this is just a remachining of the piston tops. A smaller cam and .060 off the top of the pistons and you would be around 10.5:1.

Oh the 60 ft. times were in the mid 1.50's, they varied from 1.54 to 1.58. I just figured the HP on the brakeout run, it made 465 HP at the FW. 371 to the tires. And there was more in it.

So Bobby, do you reckon it was -

Too lean?
Too much timing?
Pistons too thin?
or something else?

Mal,
The air changed drastically, and the altitude dropped almost 1,000 feet. The day started at near 100* and when the engine went away it was 20* or more cooler, let alone the humidity went from 52% to 88% and air pressure went up .2. What this means is that the air was getting alot better and the need for more fuel was warrented, but I didn't have the time between rounds to make the corrections. Had the air not moved so much so fast everything would have been fine. I've ran into this a few years back and it did the same thing. It's just one of those times when theres nothing that you can do except hope for the best and go. Could it have been prevented, yes I guess it could have, had I had more data on this engine. But the engine was new and not yet settled, so I gave it what it wanted, I made 6 changes in 4 passes. Between chassis and fuel and timing. Everything was going the right direction until the air changed. So I guess you could say it was my fault for getting too greedy to fast, and wanting the engine to do the best that it could on day 1.

What I should have done in hind sight is, just went to test and tune and not raced. But I had alot of confidence in myself and the engine. And in the end I stubbed my toe. Hey thats how you live and learn. Now I won't see the air do that again for another couple of years. As it does it about every 5 years or so, where the air changes quickly at night. It'll more than likely get me again then, as you tend to get into a comfort zone. And you never know when it's going to happen.

Those were impressive runs for the first time out. It's to bad the engine ate itself up. Air can be a tricky thing when you start that hot. It would be almost like turning NOS on with no extra fuel. Makes silly putty pretty quick. I would love to see what a pump gas version of this engine would do.

Jack

Jack,
After talking to my transmission guy HT and Kenny Ford my converter guy they both said that the transmission and the converter should be OK. Kenny said that the worst that could happen is it would have stripped the input spline out of the converter hub. They both said that if the transmission would pull or move the car that it would be OK. Hey thats what I have these guys for, they really know there stuff when it comes to transmissions and converters. Anyway now that I know that I'm planning on staying with the 344 engine, instead of going to the big block.

This is the way that I'm going to redo the engine, so hopefully I won't have this happen again. It's going to be more on the street side, but with a bigger cam. I found pistons that I'm going to remachine but will only yeild 10.7:1 when machined. Then I'm going to use a comp cams 290-A, which is the same grind in the 322. It has .540 lift and 255 @ .050, what this will do is allow me to build cylinder pressure and run a lesser comp piston. Thus giving me more V to P clearence and maybe not have to valve relief the piston but .100 max. If that. It actually showed more TQ and a bit less HP. I'll lose about 60 HP but the TQ gains about 10 ft. lbs., but hey thats not a bad trade off considering that the compression will be 10.7 verses 14.96, and the duration will be 255 @ .050 verses 275/272 @ .050. Either way I'm still looking for 6 second passes or 10's in the 1/4. The nice thing is I already have a tuneup for this cam and head, and intake combo. With lots of data.

Anyway thats the direction that I'm going to be going. Hopefully I'll have it back together in the next few weeks. Also too the weather won't be changing that much as it will be cooler and the wild swings of temperture won't happen.

Looking forward to when you head out an give it another crack again!

Right now I'm in the middle of a engine for 72Scamp_Swinger. I'll hopefully have it finished by the weekend, then I have 5 sets of heads or so comming from Wedge Performance from Baton Rouge, LA. in a few weeks. So maybe in the mean time I'll get the chance to get back to it. I havent even messed with since it had the melt down. Maybe I'll get the chance to get the heads off this week. It only takes 30-40 mins. to take it apart.

Hmm

Well, I took it apart today and #2 is missing a piston completely. I found a piece of the piston pin reenforcement in the intake runner of #4, a part of the top or second ring in #8 cylinder. And numerous parts of the piston in each of the other cylinders, and behind many of the valves. Needless to say that all the pistons will have to be replaced as they all have damage to them, from parts flying around. I'll have to replace some bent valves too, as there is parts of the piston behind them to. The worst of the damage is to the head as it will need a seat and a sleeve in the cylinder as it has a couple of good scar's.

But with some time and a few parts, and it will be ready to go back. I guess as blowups go this one was vary forgiving, as it could have been much, much worse. And especially at RPM's. It could have been lean but it's hard to tell when there isn't any burn pattern on the pistons. Everything is as clean as when assembled, other than piston parts and debris.

Well it's been a while since I saw a post from you How are you doing ? any news on the 349s you built for your customers ? ie build variances , dyno sheets , track times etc... , I'm still looking at going this route with my 318 and now that I'm on layoff I am cleaning out the garage to make room for a little work space and getting ready to start getting her out of the car and stripping her down . Hope to here back soon thanks -Chris

Chris,
Funny you should ask as I just today put it back in and it's up and running. The other guys that want one are still getting $$$$ together, parts aren't cheap as everyone knows. But anyway I'm going to the track track this Sunday, so I'll have some better results hopefully, as long as parts breakage doesn't happen again. But as of right now things are GOOD. I know that I'll have to do some tuning but looking for some very good numbers, as I have a base line from the old engine and tuneup.

Thanks for asking

Funny how that works eh!lol glad to here your ready to give her again , what changes did you make? I know you were talking about dropping the compression down to something that might run on high-test pump gas , I was hoping to hear about some other combos but I know as well as anybody about the price of parts and labour I got laid off a month ago and am just now expecting my first pogey { sorry a Canadian term for unemployment } cheque this week , lucky for me I was prepared for it to happen months ago and have a little reserve built up but it's still hard to tap into it knowing it could very well be 6 months or more before things pick up enough around here for my union number to come up . Enough about that crap forward ho we go I'm still on board for a 349 or slightly larger since I was told my block was 30 over when I bought the car I may have to go up a few piston sizes what is a 40/60 over build anyway ?