Exactly. What more than the stock 383 HP of 425 LB FT of torque do you "need" on the street? Most people have never experienced an honest 425 LB FT.
RustyRatRod's Guide To Hot Rod Bliss
- Thread starter RustyRatRod
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j par
Well-hung Member
^^^ bump
stock 383 4 speed 68-70 roadrunners with 3;55 or 3:91 gear??? what else could a guy want for or need on the street !!??? I agree. Oh the days when you could find one runnin driving for $1000 to $1500 complete! LOL ( mid 90's that's when and before of course!))...
ramenth
Gratis persona
You're not your own worst enemy, not really.
While Rob and Rob and company are applying common sense hot rodding rules for the average, every day enthusiasts there are builds that will go beyond these basic simple rules.
What's the vision for the build? I'm in complete agreement if what you're seeing is having a weekend cruiser where you'll be running in heavy traffic with the opportunity to play a little bit presents itself.
I've got a couple here, not all of them Mopar, not all of them going to see exclusively street use. A couple are pick ups, with the mind to towing and hauling, but also being somewhat unique. My F250 comes to mind. My vision for that is to make it a long distance tow vehicle. I could find a 390 for it or even go 460 on the cheap. Gobs of torque. But something says build the 300 that's in it and make 'em weep, not just do what everyone else does. The 300 has a lot of potential, to put a lot of torque down low. It's gonna cost me to go that route, though. Add in a trans swap and a GV overdrive and I'm building the truck of my dreams with less than half of the money it would take to buy a new truck that's ready to run right out the box.
My vision for the E-body is to take it to WGI and rock the course while keeping it 100% streetable. That's goes beyond the rules written here.
But at the same time, the '69 Sport Satellite is going to be completely, 100% stock. Manual drums all the way around, 383 4bbl, 727, 3.55 8.75 Sure Grip. Every part I need is still attached to the car except the carb. Why spend all the money in "building" it when it's pretty much perfect the way it is?
I will add a few things, though, to the list, that goes beyond the engine building route. For today's driving, a stock 340 4bbl or 360 4 bbl built to the 340 specs, or even a stock B or RB is gonna make your average, every day driver/weekend cruiser move with today's traffic if you need to. Where our cars fall a little flat is in the stock department of brakes and suspension, especially "handling."
There are low buck upgrades to solve both. You're traveling through a city street and a ball comes rolling out in front of you with a kid chasing it. All the power in the world isn't going to get you out of that situation. Good brakes will. Adding a little more camber into the car, will. Think about it.
I think that distinction needs to be made between what I / we / anyone "Needs" and what I / they "Want".
What does anyone "Need"? Take a look around. Prius, Geo Metro 3 cylinder, Honda 600 2 Cylinder, or even the BMW Isetta 1 lunger. They will all get you from place to place and have been doing so for ages.
The question becomes, "What do I want?"
I want to drive my sleeper around town with reasonable comfort.
I want to be able to bark the rear tires on a whim just to remind the 'Tuner' in the next lane that you can't argue with cubic inches.
I want to take it to the track once and a while to enjoy time with my straight line speed freaks and be able to make a good pass occasionally.
And most of all, I think I want to be able to 'Tinker' with it just because it makes me happy, gives my mind somewhere else to go, and keeps me out of trouble.
I don't ever want my 'Sleeper' to be complete. To look at it and say, "There is nothing more to do." would depress me in the end.
My mind reels with the thoughts of all the things I have done, could do, and will do to it in the coming years. And those thoughts make me happy. They are a zero stress thought that provides my with those ever loving endorphins that some get from running, cycling, etc.
I grin a little every time I walk by it and that is what I need.
Thanks for the read.
What does anyone "Need"? Take a look around. Prius, Geo Metro 3 cylinder, Honda 600 2 Cylinder, or even the BMW Isetta 1 lunger. They will all get you from place to place and have been doing so for ages.
The question becomes, "What do I want?"
I want to drive my sleeper around town with reasonable comfort.
I want to be able to bark the rear tires on a whim just to remind the 'Tuner' in the next lane that you can't argue with cubic inches.
I want to take it to the track once and a while to enjoy time with my straight line speed freaks and be able to make a good pass occasionally.
And most of all, I think I want to be able to 'Tinker' with it just because it makes me happy, gives my mind somewhere else to go, and keeps me out of trouble.
I don't ever want my 'Sleeper' to be complete. To look at it and say, "There is nothing more to do." would depress me in the end.
My mind reels with the thoughts of all the things I have done, could do, and will do to it in the coming years. And those thoughts make me happy. They are a zero stress thought that provides my with those ever loving endorphins that some get from running, cycling, etc.
I grin a little every time I walk by it and that is what I need.
Thanks for the read.
73 Swinger 8
Well-Known Member
I agree 100%, swies.
Here is my angle on it though. I have seen newbies come on here and say "I want to build a 650 HP engine".
They probably wouldn't know 650 HP if they felt it, first off. Secondly, building such an engine requires that you have some deep pockets to fund your hobby. "Most" beginners do not. Heck, no one I know is a beginner around here and they don't have that kind of money, either.
Thirdly, you have to know "something" about WHAT you are doing. Whether you do it yourself, or not. How will you know your machine shop has done a good job if you don't know which questions to ask, or what to look for? How will you know they used what YOU wanted instead of cutting corners on parts and throwing the difference in their profit margin?
That's why I created this thread. For those who may be building their first engine. Mistakes are a LOT cheaper and easier to catch at this level, plus, you can learn at the same time. It's very expensive to learn building an engine that cost 10K dollars, VS one that costs 2500 or less. The margin for error is smaller.
Here is my angle on it though. I have seen newbies come on here and say "I want to build a 650 HP engine".
They probably wouldn't know 650 HP if they felt it, first off. Secondly, building such an engine requires that you have some deep pockets to fund your hobby. "Most" beginners do not. Heck, no one I know is a beginner around here and they don't have that kind of money, either.
Thirdly, you have to know "something" about WHAT you are doing. Whether you do it yourself, or not. How will you know your machine shop has done a good job if you don't know which questions to ask, or what to look for? How will you know they used what YOU wanted instead of cutting corners on parts and throwing the difference in their profit margin?
That's why I created this thread. For those who may be building their first engine. Mistakes are a LOT cheaper and easier to catch at this level, plus, you can learn at the same time. It's very expensive to learn building an engine that cost 10K dollars, VS one that costs 2500 or less. The margin for error is smaller.
:cheers:
RRR that is the mark!
I am forty-two many to count.
This Dart is my first MOPAR however I have 'Tinkered' with many others from Euro (VW, Opel, MG) to Asian (Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha) and Finally to U.S. (Ford, Late Model Chrysler (200, 300, Concorde, Intrepid)).
The thing in common is this:
Stock is Cheap.
Every thing else is a matter of Mind over Money.
If you don't mind, the money doesn't matter.
I think that applies to all aspects, not just speed / power.
You want it to have the 'New' HID lights? That will cost you.
You want it to have the 'New' CAI? That will cost you.
And many of the 'Easily' swayed individuals will sway this way or that at the drop of a pin depending on what commercial they just watched, what Hot-Rod show they just saw, or the 'Cool' car that just passed them on the street.
Unfortunately, they do not stop long enough to:
A. Think about what they want their car to do in the future.
B. Research / Learn how to get it there.
C. Execute accordingly.
They tend to think there is a Magic Bolt on. (CAI, 'Turbo-nator') device that will make it all come true.
I currently am struggling with my Teen Dart as the last owner did some good work and some not so good work. 6 hours under the dash to get the wiring sorted and 20+ hours under the hood undoing some stupid stuff that got done to name some.
I know what I want it to do in the future, (See my previous post about time with friends and tinkering).
I have a plan to get it there.
I try to research all that I can about that particular subject.
( I would like to pause here and thank ALOT of the members on here)
rayer: Rusty, A/J, Trail Beast, 69Mope, TXSTANG, 67DART273, Abodybomber, KrazyKuda, WhitePunk, just to name a few. There are many more that I owe thanks to.rayer:
And finally I try to stick to that plan to get where I want to go.
Many of the 'Younger' generation have been told all their life that "You are smart, You are good, You can do anything" without being told that it requires effort beyond measure. They have been told that long enough that they believe it. They think they can pick up a car, throw some of the 'New', 'Cool' parts at it and go down the track at 150mph. Why wouldn't they? Wouldn't you if you had been told those things all of your days?
I have seen it with some of my boys' friends that end up in my garage working on their rides. (mostly because many of their fathers don't even own a tool set let alone know how to use them)
I hate to be the JackA$$ that tells them the new, cool exhaust tip they just dropped $50 on will not make the Ricer suddenly launch itself into the middle of next week, It will just make it annoyingly loud and obnoxious at cruising speeds.
If I put this all together with the Modern throw away paradigm that exists, ie. use it till it breaks then toss it, I fear that the wrench turning, greasy finger nailed, Motor Head may be heading the way of the DODO bird.
What a shame that would be.
I have hope when I see younger boys than me on this site trying to learn the way things are done and not looking for the quick fix or how they can get rid of the car.
But I digress, (But I am good at digressing, I have been doing it all my life)
Thanks to all for the time. I truly don't deserve it as this is mostly a self serving, thread hijacking, Rant by someone with too much time behind the PC and not enough with the wrench in my hand. Didn't get to touch the car last night and I didn't sleep right because of it.
RRR that is the mark!
I am forty-two many to count.
This Dart is my first MOPAR however I have 'Tinkered' with many others from Euro (VW, Opel, MG) to Asian (Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha) and Finally to U.S. (Ford, Late Model Chrysler (200, 300, Concorde, Intrepid)).
The thing in common is this:
Stock is Cheap.
Every thing else is a matter of Mind over Money.
If you don't mind, the money doesn't matter.
I think that applies to all aspects, not just speed / power.
You want it to have the 'New' HID lights? That will cost you.
You want it to have the 'New' CAI? That will cost you.
And many of the 'Easily' swayed individuals will sway this way or that at the drop of a pin depending on what commercial they just watched, what Hot-Rod show they just saw, or the 'Cool' car that just passed them on the street.
Unfortunately, they do not stop long enough to:
A. Think about what they want their car to do in the future.
B. Research / Learn how to get it there.
C. Execute accordingly.
They tend to think there is a Magic Bolt on. (CAI, 'Turbo-nator') device that will make it all come true.
I currently am struggling with my Teen Dart as the last owner did some good work and some not so good work. 6 hours under the dash to get the wiring sorted and 20+ hours under the hood undoing some stupid stuff that got done to name some.
I know what I want it to do in the future, (See my previous post about time with friends and tinkering).
I have a plan to get it there.
I try to research all that I can about that particular subject.
( I would like to pause here and thank ALOT of the members on here)
rayer: Rusty, A/J, Trail Beast, 69Mope, TXSTANG, 67DART273, Abodybomber, KrazyKuda, WhitePunk, just to name a few. There are many more that I owe thanks to.rayer:And finally I try to stick to that plan to get where I want to go.
Many of the 'Younger' generation have been told all their life that "You are smart, You are good, You can do anything" without being told that it requires effort beyond measure. They have been told that long enough that they believe it. They think they can pick up a car, throw some of the 'New', 'Cool' parts at it and go down the track at 150mph. Why wouldn't they? Wouldn't you if you had been told those things all of your days?
I have seen it with some of my boys' friends that end up in my garage working on their rides. (mostly because many of their fathers don't even own a tool set let alone know how to use them)
I hate to be the JackA$$ that tells them the new, cool exhaust tip they just dropped $50 on will not make the Ricer suddenly launch itself into the middle of next week, It will just make it annoyingly loud and obnoxious at cruising speeds.
If I put this all together with the Modern throw away paradigm that exists, ie. use it till it breaks then toss it, I fear that the wrench turning, greasy finger nailed, Motor Head may be heading the way of the DODO bird.
What a shame that would be.
I have hope when I see younger boys than me on this site trying to learn the way things are done and not looking for the quick fix or how they can get rid of the car.
But I digress, (But I am good at digressing, I have been doing it all my life)
Thanks to all for the time. I truly don't deserve it as this is mostly a self serving, thread hijacking, Rant by someone with too much time behind the PC and not enough with the wrench in my hand. Didn't get to touch the car last night and I didn't sleep right because of it.
Funny you bring up the CAI. Those things are the biggest frauds ever coming out of the automotive aftermarket. Most of them do not fully enclose the air filter element.
I love it when I see these little tuner punks and their hondas, nissans and toyotees and such with the hoods popped and they are all standin there oogling at the thing. And there's this totally exposed uncovered air filter element......be it red, blue, green or whatever just hangin there. Out in the open completely exposed on all sides to engine heat. Dummies.
.....and I have tried, but you cannot tell them anything. They "don't get" that they probably lost performance when they removed the factory air box that "did" fully enclose the filter element, "AND" routed fresh, COLD OUTSIDE AIR into the box. Dummies.
Even the dumb rednecks with their lifted diesel trucks do the same thing. They think because "now" they can "HEAR" the air intake when they "mash on it" that is "has" to be makin more power. Wrongo, Paco. .....and they are even "WORSE" to try and "talk to" than the tuner guys. So I just give up trying. I just smile and say "nice setup". Dummies.
Some people simply make mistakes and once you point them out, they see the light. Others just continue to argue "it says X HP gains on the box". Dummies.
The bottom line on the CAI is, if it exposes the air filter element to hot engine bay air, it does "NOT" ad power and if it replaced an enclosed filter that was routed to cold outside air, you probably just lost some. Dummies.
I love it when I see these little tuner punks and their hondas, nissans and toyotees and such with the hoods popped and they are all standin there oogling at the thing. And there's this totally exposed uncovered air filter element......be it red, blue, green or whatever just hangin there. Out in the open completely exposed on all sides to engine heat. Dummies.
.....and I have tried, but you cannot tell them anything. They "don't get" that they probably lost performance when they removed the factory air box that "did" fully enclose the filter element, "AND" routed fresh, COLD OUTSIDE AIR into the box. Dummies.
Even the dumb rednecks with their lifted diesel trucks do the same thing. They think because "now" they can "HEAR" the air intake when they "mash on it" that is "has" to be makin more power. Wrongo, Paco. .....and they are even "WORSE" to try and "talk to" than the tuner guys. So I just give up trying. I just smile and say "nice setup". Dummies.
Some people simply make mistakes and once you point them out, they see the light. Others just continue to argue "it says X HP gains on the box". Dummies.
The bottom line on the CAI is, if it exposes the air filter element to hot engine bay air, it does "NOT" ad power and if it replaced an enclosed filter that was routed to cold outside air, you probably just lost some. Dummies.
Frankie
Member #9641
I want to know about Slants, Rob.
What do you want? A good budget recipe for a slant?
Princess Valiant
A.K.A. Rainy Day Auto
This,I'd like to see....??
Princess Valiant
A.K.A. Rainy Day Auto
That would be going from the frying pan to the fire with that wee man engine. ........:angel12:
I am playin around with a slant on Desktop Dyno. With the 1.74 and 1.44 over size valves and bowl porting, 9.5 compression, 600 Holley and headers with a custom solid lifter version of the Comp 275DEH in the Ford grind for more lift, it still only makes 244 HP @ 5000 RPM and 272 LB FT @ 4000 RPM. Still better than stock, but put those same specs in a 318 and you have a real barn burner that would be superior in mileage as well. I will post the graph and recipe if yall want it.
Princess Valiant
A.K.A. Rainy Day Auto
Yea I was just kidding about the 273 being a wee man engine to poke fun at mr. Del sir.
Seriously ......a good running 273 car is better than a car in the barn not running at all and i have a few of those lol
I still like my slants
Seriously ......a good running 273 car is better than a car in the barn not running at all and i have a few of those lol
I still like my slants
Back on topic,
- RustyRatRod's Guide To Hot Rod Bliss-,
Notes on assembly lube & break in.
Before You build, soak!!! yep that's right soak,
Crank, cam, lifters,pushrods, rockers, shafts, etc
Build Yourself a cheepie containment, add parts, add enough Fossil Oil to cover parts,
Let heat cycle ... Ambient for You Desert Folks, An 160 deg Oven for the rest of Us.
7 days, 14 hot to cold 'cycles'...
After hot tank, ductile Iron, and some steels, are like sponges.
I am not bashing Moly based pastes,
Soak the iron first, then if there is a 'fo paux' in the build, the moly may 'go away'
but the iron will not.
- RustyRatRod's Guide To Hot Rod Bliss-,
Notes on assembly lube & break in.
Before You build, soak!!! yep that's right soak,
Crank, cam, lifters,pushrods, rockers, shafts, etc
Build Yourself a cheepie containment, add parts, add enough Fossil Oil to cover parts,
Let heat cycle ... Ambient for You Desert Folks, An 160 deg Oven for the rest of Us.
7 days, 14 hot to cold 'cycles'...
After hot tank, ductile Iron, and some steels, are like sponges.
I am not bashing Moly based pastes,
Soak the iron first, then if there is a 'fo paux' in the build, the moly may 'go away'
but the iron will not.
Back on topic,
- RustyRatRod's Guide To Hot Rod Bliss-,
Notes on assembly lube & break in.
Before You build, soak!!! yep that's right soak,
Crank, cam, lifters,pushrods, rockers, shafts, etc
Build Yourself a cheepie containment, add parts, add enough Fossil Oil to cover parts,
Let heat cycle ... Ambient for You Desert Folks, An 160 deg Oven for the rest of Us.
7 days, 14 hot to cold 'cycles'...
After hot tank, ductile Iron, and some steels, are like sponges.
I am not bashing Moly based pastes,
Soak the iron first, then if there is a 'fo paux' in the build, the moly may 'go away'
but the iron will not.
Interesting ,Norm -San...? Would you care, to share "why?"... Is it that obvious?
Abodybomber said:
Sorry to resurrect this 'zombie' topic, However as I have been viewing an exponential number of 'cam & lifter' failure posts
lately---
Mr Tim, 'virgin' castings (or forgings) use water soluble oil in the machining process,--- to protect the tooling
& produce an 'engineering tolerant' build... Tooling is Big $$$$ !!!!
Alu, Ductile Iron (black wonder metal) & Steel are still porous
--- Picture a newborn that needs Mothers Milk...lol, Fossil oil ( & maybe a can or two (2) of ZDDP) & heat cycling--- then the Moly Paste ---
---I will defer to My most learned constituents here, & await correction---
Does it? I am REALLY glad. I sorta cannot STAND building them like that, because I don't really have a test mule. But I am glad you are happy with it.
I am what I consider pretty weak when it comes to metallurgy and chemical lubricants and anti rust and corrosion "stuff", but I do know that there is no metal "alive" that is not porous. So, treating virgin metal is pretty important. I even brush on STP Oil Treatment on things if I know it is going to be awhile before I use them, whether it is virgin metal or not.
Thank yall for bring this thread back up. I had actually forgotten about it.
spl440
Everybody's Fool
Could this be made into a sticky, as a previous smart person ( HAHA ) hinted at?
I (was) going to add some more to this, but it kinda got off track real bad. That's cool though, because it's still a good discussion, just not quite the direction I was hopin for. Maybe if I put it all together and post it all at once.
j par
Well-hung Member
Allow me to be the first to re-derail LOL Rusty rat rods guide to Hot Rod mediocracy LOL 
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