dual pattern camshaft

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ir3333

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are dual pattern cams designed for builds having poor exhaust flow?
would they benefit a build using exhaust manifolds instead of headers?
your thoughts...
 
Yes and Yes kind of . A lot of it has to do with the combo and mostly your cylinder head selection . Aftermarket heads have a much better intake to exhaust flow ratio so they might need a little less split . The extra lift and duration on the exhaust helps bleed off pressure plus helps pulse the incoming intake charge . This helps create a higher velocity intake charge into the head and intake . It is also helpful in nitrous and bigger cubed motors . If you are wanting a more radical idling motor stick to the single patter cams .
 
no..i'm wanting a smooth idle,not too loud and lo end torque.
guess i'm showing my age....
 
Factory stock cylinder heads are restrictive on the exhaust side. The extra duration on the exhaust lobe would compensate for the weak exhaust port.
 
I would not say they are designed for poor exhaust or manifolds, just that in some instances they work better.

This is once again one of those dealios where it all depends on the entire combination. Sometimes even vehicles with superior exhaust make best power with a dual pattern camshaft. It is just all combination dependent.
 
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hmm...the intake relies on vacuum, but the exhaust is positive pressure
and the valves and ports are sized accordingly stock,but if you ramp up the
hp and you are using manifolds the exhaust might need a little help...
 
hmm...the intake relies on vacuum, but the exhaust is positive pressure
and the valves and ports are sized accordingly stock,but if you ramp up the
hp and you are using manifolds the exhaust might need a little help...

Hot exhaust needs less opening than incoming cold air, so don't forget to add that into your equation also. :D
 
hmm...the intake relies on vacuum, but the exhaust is positive pressure
and the valves and ports are sized accordingly stock,but if you ramp up the
hp and you are using manifolds the exhaust might need a little help...

The intake process relies more on the exhaust blowdown than pressure differential that arrises from the piston motion. A split pattern cam can allow that blowdown to help to a greater extent than a single pattern. Especially in regard to lower rpm (like under 5K) street aplications where a larger single pattern cam will be showing it's poor side effects.
 
And don't forget that the split pattern cam allows a little leeway, when adjusting the Dcr by fine-tuning the Installed CenterLine .The penalty is sometimes that there is still a lot of energy left in the exhaust, if too large a cam, or a too early an ICL is used is selected for the intended useage. Energy that might have been used to move the car; a small thing perhaps, but real non-the-less.
 
The intake process relies more on the exhaust blowdown than pressure differential that arrises from the piston motion.
There is a lot of truth here. A lot more of the burned gasses stay in the chamber than most folks realize; getting them out is key to improving cylinder filling with fresh intake charge. High CR, and better exhaust flow in any way, help the process of removing the spent gasses.
 
I know this will open a can of worms! This is where a h pipe or x pipe would help scavenging the exhaust gases, especially with the use of stock exhaust manifolds. You want to remove the spent exhaust gases as fast as possible, so you have more room for the intake charge.
 
There's no way the exhaust piping will help scavenge the cylinder. They are too far apart, and the temperature differential makes the gasses in each area behave differently. The H and X pipes will only help behind the manifolds or headers - not in front of them. Especially with manifolds, there is 100-200psi or more within the cylinder while the piston is still heading down towards BDC, and that pushes out the exhaust through the port and whatever manifolding is connected to it. As that gas exits, it creates a pressure differential that is much stronger than the "suck" created by the piston's motion down the bore on the intake stroke or any "scavenge" effect from 4' down a pipe. So a cam designed to take advantage of that will always make more power at all rpms levels, right until the rest of the physics involved with the intake tract can be utilized. The difference between an average engine and an outstanding one these days centers around maximizing the bonuses of forces present within the rpm band you need and with the parts you "have" to run. A split pattern, and in some instances split opening and closing ramp designs on the same lobe are critical to that effort.
 
And that is the thinking behind why I have dual 3inch pipes; so the headers can do what they are supposed to do. Not cuz I thought I would need them, for exhaust flow, cuz obviously, a little 367 can get by with a whole lot less. I wanted the headers to think they were hitting atmosphere.While that's not possible with street mufflers,I believed that in this case;more was better.I think it worked out for me.

I will say one thing tho; To install a GearVendor, I had to sacrifice the H-pipe. Well I felt that almost right away. The TTI H-pipe was pretty small, So for me it was a no-brainer, just cut it out.I have a M/T so low speed torque is very important. When the H-pipe went, so did quite a bit of Part-Throttle torque; from just-off-idle to about 2000rpm . But since I now had O/D, I just swapped in bigger gears.
I have no idea what goes on in that little pipe, but I think it might be..... magic.
 
I did a fair amount of cam testing with a big block that had exhaust manifolds. The best cam was the Mopar .528 solid which is a single pattern cam. What I found was that the engine was very sensitive to duration and overlap. If you had too little duration the engine made a lot of torque down low but wouldn't carry it very high. The longer duration cams lost power down low and they also didn't carry very high due to exhaust restriction. The .528 solid cam was just right. It is small enough that it makes great torque but it is big enough to carry the power up to about 6000 rpm. This cam test was published in Popular Hot Rodding about 10 years ago. Can probably find it with some google searching.
 
are dual pattern cams designed for builds having poor exhaust flow?
would they benefit a build using exhaust manifolds instead of headers?
your thoughts...
That was the main idea behind the split pattern cams. It does work. Crane uses approx. 8*'s on there split. Other companies use 4-6. The amount of division can help or hinder. For the most part, more is better for certain applications while in an engine with very well balanced flowing heads, it can lead to over scavenging. A lot is application dependent and engine dependent.

(Find and read AndyF's article. I was surprised myself when I read this. And it shows what I say and continue to say. Sometimes, you just never expect the result! The way I figured things out 20+ years ago was just to simply purchase the cam and run it! 20+ cams later, LMAO!, you get the feel for things. But just the feel!)

When Crane intoduced its split pattern came, only stock heads were available. Porting technics were not as well developed or advanced as they are today thanks to people extremely interested in this area of engine development.
(See and read David Vizard's book on porting heads and be mindful of the time period!)

The question here today we all face is, "Is a split pattern right for me and how much is needed for the best performance of MY engine?"

First I'll say, and probably get a bit of a roasted my for it is, there is nothing wrong with a single pattern cam. Sometimes, it can out power a split duration cam. I'm m sorry to say that an actual write up and dyno sheet showing this, I don't not know where to find. But be sure it is application/engine build dependent. What works great in one engine may not work as well as you would think in the next engine.

Also a word on "Out powers." Max HP isn't the only thing one should look at in what actually makes an engine powerful.

Also consider intake, exhaust and header design coupled with exhaust pipe sizing and length as part of the issues concerning cam selection.

In general, while I am here at the forums, when someone asks for advice on a cam, I am going to look at off the shelf cams rather than sit down with a computer algorithm to science something out.
(No, I do not have such a thing.)

The balance in intake and exhaust flow is the main target to look at. The poorer the balance the more exhaust duration you may very well want.

To help educate yourself, pick up the simple "Desk Top Dyno" program and start entering known cam specs. Then try adjusting them yourself. Pay attention to th power curves and your cam self adjustments.

Once you get the hang of this, you may just order up your own spec custom cam.
Remember! This is a learning tool!

In the end, I think cam prices are cheap and the deep well of wonderment and experimentation will make them easier to purchase and try out. And that is what I suggest! Try them all out!
 
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no..i'm wanting a smooth idle,not too loud and lo end torque.
guess i'm showing my age....

Put a 340 style cam in it with a 2200 stall, fine tune the motor and yer done.
It will blow the tires off on command and run excellent.
 
If you read the last three issues of Mopar Action you'll see that I've covered this topic once again but in a slightly different way. These days I'm using a 470 low deck stroker as my dyno mule and I tested both single pattern as well as a dual pattern cam in it. The 470 has Trick Flow heads on it which have excellent exhaust ports so the first cam from Bullet was a single pattern. They thought that the good exhaust port didn't require a dual pattern cam. That cam made pretty good power but was a little down on torque early in the curve. I switched over to another single pattern cam that was smaller and it made great torque but laid over a tad early. The third cam is a more modern design from Comp with different lobe families used on the intake and exhaust. The lobes are different and the duration is different from intake to exhaust. This third cam made good torque and carried it a little higher. Not everyone has the time to try three different cams on the dyno so I wrote the articles. Rather than spending a couple grand on parts and dyno testing you can read the details for $10!

I will say that it is possible that there is a "perfect" single pattern cam for my 470 which would make more power than the three cams I've tested so far. I'll also say it is very possible that there is a "perfect" dual pattern cam that will make even more power than what I've tested. I don't think anyone has ever figured out cams. Just when I start to think I have a handle on it I see some stuff that I would never dream of. For example, the GM engineers put a 233/276 duration camshaft in the LS7 COPO drag race engine. I've never heard of anyone using 43 degrees of split on a camshaft before and I never ever would've tried it myself. I have no idea how some engineer came up with that idea. I imagine he got laughed at when he first raised his hand and said "how about we try 43 degrees of split".
 
It's probably more the case that the calculations showed something "might be there", and there's probably a stack of "tried" cams with more split...lol.
 
The copo cam at 233 int is also used with 12-1 compression to 7000 rpm maybe the extra exh is to get it there. I also agree with Andy single pattern with a wider lsa as in the mopar cam he used seems to work better with manifolds or non open exh.
 
Ima thinking they opened the exhaust so early, to give it extra time to fight it's way through a restrictive exhaust. By opening the exhaust valve that early there is gonna be a lot of energy still in that slug.
 
I did a fair amount of cam testing with a big block that had exhaust manifolds. The best cam was the Mopar .528 solid which is a single pattern cam. What I found was that the engine was very sensitive to duration and overlap. If you had too little duration the engine made a lot of torque down low but wouldn't carry it very high. The longer duration cams lost power down low and they also didn't carry very high due to exhaust restriction. The .528 solid cam was just right. It is small enough that it makes great torque but it is big enough to carry the power up to about 6000 rpm. This cam test was published in Popular Hot Rodding about 10 years ago. Can probably find it with some google searching.
If you could that would be great. I have a friend with a basically stock 440 and a pair of good iron heads and would like to keep his HP manifolds. Some cam info would help him.
 
I will say one thing tho; To install a GearVendor, I had to sacrifice the H-pipe. .

you chose to. I have a GVOD and an H pipe.

The .528 solid cam was just right. It is small enough that it makes great torque but it is big enough to carry the power up to about 6000 rpm. .

I've run this cam 2x.

It' makes peak torque from 3500-4000 range and peak HP in the 5600-5800 range.

at the crank..
Engine A: 514/467

at the wheels..
Engine B: 450/314
 
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