It would be nice if you could determine the installed spring height along with the spring specs. Also it is really hard to look at a photo and see the details.
Bent up stuff
- Thread starter VonCramp
- Start date
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1967 'cuda
Dropped on Head as a Baby
With all the bent pushrods and broken springs one thing is obvious. Parts were being forced into places there wasn't enough room for them to be. (Springs being compressed to where the coils bound and pushrods bending because they couldn't lift past the point everything was hitting) It makes me wonder if those roller lifters sustained any damage to the rollers or the pins when things bottomed out.
GeorgeH
Well-Known Member
You need a height micrometer to measure the space between your retainer and the head. Then determine whether you need the spring seats cut or shim them the springs so that they can be installed at the springs recommended height. Just putting another set of springs on there without checking is another chance for disaster.
is that rocker at max lift? It's far from coil bind. Also guide to retainer including the height of the seal needs verified.
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GeorgeH
Well-Known Member
x's 2, but it just can't be stressed enough.
340demon72
Well-Known Member
All the above being excellent info., I am puzzled about the sequence of events that led to this damage. In post #1 (2) items catch my attention: "my motor was running perfect earlier today." and "Motor started running real rough and he said to drive it anyways."
Now it's not until post #11 that you mention "One detail I can thing of is that he did set the lash what seemed like half-*** to me by eyeballing the opening and closing of the valves." Did he do this at the same time that he screwed up the timing and other stuff? If so did the running rough start right then? My point being that if it was running OK before the valve lash, then that's when the clearance problems started, indicating not enough total clearance was set in system to start with.
The valves look too big (diam.) for the retainers and head pockets to me. Also if wasn't coil bind but the retainers hitting the valve guides, the valve seals should be crushed or split.
I understand clearancing rockers is commonly done but it does compromise the strength/integrity of the rocker. Best to work with the manufacturer to get compatible parts. If it has to be done, a competent machinist would use an end mill. Sorry, using a die grinder on rockers is HACK! Hope you get this sorted........
Now it's not until post #11 that you mention "One detail I can thing of is that he did set the lash what seemed like half-*** to me by eyeballing the opening and closing of the valves." Did he do this at the same time that he screwed up the timing and other stuff? If so did the running rough start right then? My point being that if it was running OK before the valve lash, then that's when the clearance problems started, indicating not enough total clearance was set in system to start with.
The valves look too big (diam.) for the retainers and head pockets to me. Also if wasn't coil bind but the retainers hitting the valve guides, the valve seals should be crushed or split.
I understand clearancing rockers is commonly done but it does compromise the strength/integrity of the rocker. Best to work with the manufacturer to get compatible parts. If it has to be done, a competent machinist would use an end mill. Sorry, using a die grinder on rockers is HACK! Hope you get this sorted........
VonCramp
Well-Known Member
The 'Cuda was running fine after valve lash was set. So, that probably isn't it. We learned yesterday that the rockers were contacting the retainers. One rocker had a very deep gouge in it. However, that had been going on before pushrods bent and motor was running strong. The main reason I am at a complete loss here is because all but three pushrods bent (badly) and both springs on #2 broke in half. Oddly no bent valves, going on air bleed by check. I could have been driving around with the bent pushrods because it is a solid roller cam and everything is noisy on the car. However, these pushrods look like bananas. So, I am thinking everything crapped out at once. I wasn't hot rodding or revving. My friend the machinist wanted to prove his theory on not needing the pcv and vacuum advance. We pull into the gas station. He disconnects everything. Puts a breather in place of the pcv. Plugs off carb port. Advances the timing. Car is immediately running really horrible. Wouldn't idle and no power. He suggests to drive it. I very reluctantly agree and it only got worse. Limp the poor thing home. Pull valve covers. See broken springs on #2. All pushrods bent except for three of them. Never revved the 340 and drove 30-40.
I would really love to do a face to face with your buddy and ask him what in the f*&# was he thinking? It pisses me off and it ain't even my wallet he broke! Please steer clear of this *** clown in the future.
VonCramp
Well-Known Member
Let me clarify that valves were only adjusted once. That was during the final assembly of motor. Valve lash was never set after that. Also, yesterday I did see the number 8 exhaust valve had rotated 180* I could tell because of the wear mark on tip of valve stem.
VonCramp
Well-Known Member
He won't be touching it anymore. However, we are friends. He is a good guy, and can machine his *** off. Just not careful with things. He lacks that special touch these old cars require.
Wow dude I hope he considers you as good a friend as you do him! Cause he owes you some money!
VonCramp
Well-Known Member
If I could prove what happened, I would tell him he's owe me!
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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I'd just like to add that when the rocker arm returns to zero lift and pushes the retainer over far enough to dig into the aluminum rocker-arm like that,then it is also forcing the stem over into the side of the guide. If the valve hangs open at all, it will be impossible to set the valves correctly. If the valve hangs open far enough then the pushrod will have a chance to come out of the pocket. If it comes out far enough, it can fall out. But if it is just a little bit, then the next time the lobe comes up it will slap the pushrod back into action. This will be very noisy. It is also possible for this shock to transferred into the rocker arm and roller tips. The sideways force at the top of the guides may be enough to crack them. If the valves hang open far enough, the piston will kiss them, and that is an awful sound to hear at cranking speed. It's awful to hear, cuz your brain takes about one second to figure out that the sound is not supposed to be there, and another second to let go of the key. During these two seconds, at 400rpm, the engine has cranked over, 13 revolutions, and every single valve is done. And then comes the "oh-chit" moment.
But if you get the engine running with only a couple of valves hanging open, then it will certainly run rough.
Now as to the machinist not noticing coil-bind during the lashing procedure; Since the valve lash is set with the lifters on the base circle, if he sets the lash like I do,namely one cylinder atta time, then both lifters for the same cylinder will be in the base circle and neither valve will be open, so the coils will look normal.However, using this method, to set the next valve in the firing order requires the crank to be rotated exactly 90 degrees . During this time two other valves will pass through maximum lift, and if coil bind was to occur, THAT would certainly be felt during hand cranking.
And as to the engine running smooth.That cam has some pretty fast clearance ramps. It doesn't take much timing to take the lope right out of it. I myself have a similar cam, but a flat tappet. It also has very little lope with just 14*.
But if you get the engine running with only a couple of valves hanging open, then it will certainly run rough.
Now as to the machinist not noticing coil-bind during the lashing procedure; Since the valve lash is set with the lifters on the base circle, if he sets the lash like I do,namely one cylinder atta time, then both lifters for the same cylinder will be in the base circle and neither valve will be open, so the coils will look normal.However, using this method, to set the next valve in the firing order requires the crank to be rotated exactly 90 degrees . During this time two other valves will pass through maximum lift, and if coil bind was to occur, THAT would certainly be felt during hand cranking.
And as to the engine running smooth.That cam has some pretty fast clearance ramps. It doesn't take much timing to take the lope right out of it. I myself have a similar cam, but a flat tappet. It also has very little lope with just 14*.
VonCramp
Well-Known Member
Here is #1 exhaust and intake valve patterns. I pulled the rockers off to check things out.
GeorgeH
Well-Known Member
Those locks don't look right, like 3/8 locks on a 5/16 stem, they don't look like the diameter matches the stem. What's that shiny down in between the valves springs? Rubbed casting or aluminum bits from the rocker? Need to poke your finger down in there.
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VonCramp
Well-Known Member
They are 10 degree locks
GeorgeH
Well-Known Member
And they don't look right for the stem size, are they 10 degree retainers?
VonCramp
Well-Known Member
Yes. 10 degree retainers
I agree with all of those who said the helpers don't get their mitts on my stuff. There are only two people I trust to make changes on my motor, my race car partner, & myself. Bob & I have raced together for over 30 years, we double check each over to make sure NOTHING is over looked. I've had many problems with arm chair mechanics years back.
Breadburner
Well-Known Member
Who is the hack....??
If you zoom in that shiny stuff looks to be the flash reflecting off some oil that's sitting there
That engine would be splattered all over my work bench.
bobscuda67
Well-Known Member
Yep, completely disassembled to start over.
VonCramp
Well-Known Member
That would probably be best. However, aside from two broken springs and 13 bent pushrods everything else seems to be okay. I am replacing all valve springs and stronger pushrods. If things still are not right, then I will pull motor and start over. There is always the option to pull motor. In fact, I just installed it a month ago. It isn't a show car. Just an old hot rod that happens to be a 1 of 130 1969 'Cuda 4 speed 383 car.
Lustle
Well-Known Member
Did you pull the heads? Did you check the Pistons for valve contact? The last thing I would what you to do is get it running again only to grenade it five minutes later because of chunks of metal in there.
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