Rear brake options

340 Dart Swinger rear brake options. Master power 11" discs up front with manual M/C

  • Master Power disc brake kit

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340swinger4spd

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I am working putting my high school car back on the road. I'm not restoring it at this time but I do want to enjoy what I have. So as you can see I have done some cleaning and painting. My options... 1. Install 4 piston willwood rear disc brakes 2. Install a Master Power rear disc brake kit. 3. Install my 70 challenger 11x3 drum brakes.

I have all parts for the 3 options. It's a road car that will see stop and go rush hour traffic and ofcourse some stabs of the throttle.

The car is a numbers matching 340-4 speed manual brakes. With Master power 11" discs up front. I have new 5x4.5 bolt axles.
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I welcome any opinions/ ideas. I will also do a poll and see how the votes go.Thanx..

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..is there a reason you don't want the factory rear drums?
If you change the rear brakes you may have to do some experimenting to
get the front / rear bias correct.If you improve the rear brakes and they lock
up lock first during hard braking....you will spin and lose control.
 
i have never had a problem or heard of a problem with rear drums being inadequate on a street car,but I would certainly want discs for repeated hard braking on an auto cross car.
 
Fronts do 80% of the work outside of auto x not really needed even then the befits are questionable. Manufacturers mainly went that way cause of customer demand. Cause people assume cause rotors are better than drums up front that 4 wheel disc must be better. Upgrade to the front rotor size to 11 3/4 would improve braking.
 
Depends on the wheels. If you will have alloy wheels that show off the brakes, go with disks for the bling and paint the calipers a bright color (blue goes good w/ the yellow body). Drums will perform just fine. As mentioned, rear disks in newer cars are mainly just to attract buyers. I don't think the e-brake works as good with rear disks, though I would rely on the transmission first to slow down in a "no brakes" emergency.
 
I'm not a bling guy at all. In fact I prefer the stock look. That's why I have the master power kit. It looks more period correct than the other companies kits.
 
Fronts do 80% of the work outside of auto x not really needed even then the befits are questionable. Manufacturers mainly went that way cause of customer demand. Cause people assume cause rotors are better than drums up front that 4 wheel disc must be better. Upgrade to the front rotor size to 11 3/4 would improve braking.

Depends on the wheels. If you will have alloy wheels that show off the brakes, go with disks for the bling and paint the calipers a bright color (blue goes good w/ the yellow body). Drums will perform just fine. As mentioned, rear disks in newer cars are mainly just to attract buyers. I don't think the e-brake works as good with rear disks, though I would rely on the transmission first to slow down in a "no brakes" emergency.

To say that manufacturers went to disks on rear due to customer demand or that rear disks are just to attract buyers is crap, its for safety and performance. To say rear disk ebrakes dont work as well is crap too, many rear disks use shoes for E brake and ones that dont will lock the wheel. If you cant tell the difference between rear disk or drums than stick with your Prius. Several of my A bodies have 4 wheel disks and they work WAY better than drums ever dreamed of. My Ram 2500 has drilled and slotted rotors front and rear with carbon fiber pads and stops 10x better than stock. There is a reason manufacturers spend billions of dollars putting air bags and anti lock brakes on modern cars, its not because customers demanded it. Did Dodge get rid of Mason Jar master cylinders to sell more cars? Nope, federal safety standards demanded it. You actually get much better modulation with disks as well and lets not forget just how poorly wet drums work.
 
Thanx for all your opinions, I drove my 70 Challenger with 4 wheel drums. I then upgrade to discs in front. Wow what a difference. I then upgraded to 4 wheel disc brake again it was very impressive. I live in the Twin Cities where you do need the best brakes possible for stupid drivers. It is common to panic stop from 60 mph. So I don't believe for one second a car with rear drums can stop as well as a disc car. Yes I agree rear wheel lock up can be an issue but it can be corrected. I have been a mechanic for 20 years and could assemble one of these cars blind folded. There are engineering deficiencis in these old cars. My goal is to make them as safe as possble.
 
Something to consider also is what kind of axle bearings each kit will work with. If you're planning on running green bearings it doesn't make a difference, but if you want to keep the stock style tapered bearings most of the rear kits out there don't work with those. There are a few that do, I know Dr. Diff's rear disk set up does. I'm not personally familiar with the one's you listed, so it would be worth checking. If you're not already running green bearings anyway.
 
And what setup is that?
Its our performance rear kit. It is also available in standard rotor with plain caliper and rubber lines. 5x4 or 5x4.5. We have matching fronts as well. Better prices than anybody....trying to scrape together the $$$ to be vendor so we can post site and prices.
 
I'm not a bling guy at all. In fact I prefer the stock look. That's why I have the master power kit. It looks more period correct than the other companies kits.

Looks like your post paid off..
Magnummopar has done many conversions and appears to have everything you need!
 
Its our performance rear kit. It is also available in standard rotor with plain caliper and rubber lines. 5x4 or 5x4.5. We have matching fronts as well. Better prices than anybody....trying to scrape together the $$$ to be vendor so we can post site and prices.

I checked out your site, it looks like a nice setup. Can I keep my tapered bearings, or does it need green bearings?
 
I wonder how magnummopar qualifies this better braking. He sells a rear disk kit so has a vested interest in such claims. I miss the engineering theory behind it. If the brakes can skid the tires how could any brakes stop any faster? Drums main deficiency is in not cooling off as fast, but rears need 1/3 the cooling of fronts. The other issue is unequal L & R braking, but that is more a problem from poor maintenance (oil on shoes, etc). Tires stop a car. Today's tires are much better than the bias ply tires of the 1960's, so don't rely on the stopping distance spec's from then. Most factory rear disks have mini-drum shoes inside the rotor hat for the parking brakes. Hard to see how those little guys are as good as much larger drum shoes. Probably fine for park lock, but less so for emergency stopping.
 
Grissom,
I have been putting rear disks on vehicles long before I ever sold them. How does 35 years as a professional mechanic and race car builder qualify my opinion? Drum brakes are ****, and if you actually knew anything about brakes then you wouldnt have to ask. Its not about locking the wheel up, its about slowing it down as fast as possible WITHOUT locking it up. Guess you have never driven on snow, eh? Not sure why you like to make foolish statements then try and convince others that I am wrong but it certainly doesnt make me want to become a vendor just to have guys like you give me constant ****. Braking is all about modulation and fyi, rear brakes need more cooling than fronts due to less available air in rear of vehicle. The calipers we sell have e brake built into caliper not "little tiny shoes" but does make me wonder just how many times you have actually used an "emergency brake" to stop your vehicle in the last 30 years...I know I have not done it but I do have 4 wheel disks and dual chamber master cylinder. Do you still run a screw on lid single line master on your Prius? I also was not selling anything, I only responded when asked. I dont need to get hassled by moderators and was trying to help a fellow mopar guy not slam into some looser with both rear wheels locked up. I dont really need this **** for just trying to help, I have a shop full of cars to build and dont make jack on parts anyway. Keep spewing your bullshit to anyone that will listen and I will stop responding to your ridiculous comments....FYI, my 67 mint grille costs more than rear disks, enjoy your Doobie Brothers underdash 8 track....
 
Guys, can we get back to my question? I own all 3 options. So I don't need to buy them. I'm torn which way to go. The drums are a perfect fit bolt on with no issues at all. The Willwoods need an extra adapter cable for the "parking brake". The master power kit would be good also since the fronts are also Master Power. Reading the descructions, this kit is the most complicated. I'm sure braking efficiency can be an issue if the rears brake better than the front, the rears will lock up. Most after market brake companies suggest an adjust able pressure valve to dial in the system. So I am not concerned about the lock up issue. I have a all the tooling needed to make my own lines and flares. Thanx..
 
Grissom,
... Its not about locking the wheel up, its about slowing it down as fast as possible WITHOUT locking it up. Guess you have never driven on snow, eh?
Everyone knows that maximum braking comes just before the tires skid. In Physics, the terms are "static" vs "dynamic" friction coefficient. That is the reason for "pumping the brakes", which anti-lock systems do automatically. Obviously, my point is that if drums can skid the tires, they have sufficient force to brake to the limit of skidding. It snows a lot in the Sierras 60 miles away (heard of the Donner Party?).
... Braking is all about modulation
So your main claim is that one gets more delicate control of the braking force with disks? We need data.
and fyi, rear brakes need more cooling than fronts due to less available air in rear of vehicle...
As mentioned by others, in road racing (constant braking on turns), the faster cooling of rear disks could be an advantage, otherwise no concerns w/ rear drums.

Your nasty language is unprofessional.
 
Remember that the original drum brakes were designed to stop much smaller tires. Even the larger 11x3" brakes were originally designed to stop bias ply's that were fairly narrow (although on a heavier car). Now, the BBP 10x2.5" rear drums were deemed acceptable on RWD production cars up until '89, but again, that's for OE width tires with relatively hard compound tires. Even based on the ability to "skid" the tires the rear drums become less effective if you're going to wider tires with softer performance compounds. All of that additional grip makes it harder to lock the wheels, and transmits more heat to the brakes. And of course just being able to skid the tires is a poor measurement of braking ability. A rapid brake application can cause a skid- the short, sharp, impulse makes it easier to skid the tire than a slower one, even when the same brake force is reached and surpassed (back to static vs dynamic coefficients, a short impulse overrides and puts you in static mode) So, just because you can stab the brakes and lock them up doesn't necessarily mean that you can exert the same amount of braking force when everything is still rolling (although that's a theoretical discussion, the real life window for that would be small).

The biggest advantage to the disks isn't braking force anyway, the larger drums can provide enough braking force under ideal conditions. The biggest problem with drums is keeping them adjusted properly so you actually have ideal conditions. Self-adjusters don't always do that, look at how they work. For example, if you back out of a driveway and always turn the same direction, you'll find that the wheel on the outside of that turn will lock up first somewhat frequently. Happened to me more than once, for a long time I always parked and backed out of my driveway to go one direction (work). And when I backed out of my spot at work, you guessed it, same direction. Those were the most frequent times I backed the car. That's when the drums adjust, so every now and then the outside tire, which is turning more, gets that extra click on the adjuster while the inside one doesn't. So, on more than one occasion I found myself locking up my right rear tire during panic stops. Sure, it wasn't ALWAYS like that, it would even out pretty quickly with the adjusters, but it only takes one panic stop gone wrong to make for a bad day. Disks are much more consistent from that standpoint.

And of course there are other factors. Heat buildup for the drums, although in normal driving conditions that's not usually a problem. Wet weather conditions, which may not be an issue for most driver's of classics since they're fair weather only drivers, but for daily use that wet weather braking is important. And another overlooked area so far, pad compound. That will be especially true for 11x3's like the OP has, because they're not widely available. Pick a rear caliper that is commonly used for performance cars and you'll have access to every pad compound under the sun. Stick with drums and you usually have two choices, organic or semi-metallic. That's the nice thing about Dr. Diff's kits using Mustang Cobra calipers, you can get anything you want for pad compound and that can significantly improve braking force, modulation, heat, etc. There's a lot to pad selection on anything other than a driver.

I don't know what calipers the MasterPower kit uses, I would look into that for pad availability. Same for the Wilwoods. Sure, you can order them easily, but the local parts store usually won't carry them.

So really it comes down to application, as always.
 
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OP not familiar with Master Power brakes so how about a pic? What is complicated about them? What caliper do they use? Pic will answer a lot of my questions....
 
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