excess positive camber 440 A body

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Brian Donahue

Brian Donahue

Exhaust system
Joined
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Ohio
Hello all,
A 73 Duster I just acquired with 440 engine has excessive positive camber with wheels on the ground. Probably in the range of 1 1/2". As you can imagine, the tires have no tread left on the outside edges. With the front end off the ground, the wheels move to about the same amount of negative camber. The torsion bars are heavy duty. Currently, the worn out old tires are 205 R60 15. We will be looking at several things to evaluate the suspension, my question is how much would tire width affect the ability to keep the car in some semblance of alignment. The rims are Cragar chrome 5 spoke and are fit with a heavy sleeved lug nut which securely locks in place over the studs. The car has front disc brakes. The rear tires are 255 R60 15. We will be checking the torsion bar setting and I am considering better, coil over shocks. What about narrowing the front tires?
Thanks, Brian
 
Brian Donahue said:
Hello all,
A 73 Duster I just acquired with 440 engine has excessive positive camber with wheels on the ground. Probably in the range of 1 1/2". As you can imagine, the tires have no tread left on the outside edges. With the front end off the ground, the wheels move to about the same amount of negative camber. The torsion bars are heavy duty. Currently, the worn out old tires are 205 R60 15. We will be looking at several things to evaluate the suspension, my question is how much would tire width affect the ability to keep the car in some semblance of alignment. The rims are Cragar chrome 5 spoke and are fit with a heavy sleeved lug nut which securely locks in place over the studs. The car has front disc brakes. The rear tires are 255 R60 15. We will be checking the torsion bar setting and I am considering better, coil over shocks. What about narrowing the front tires?
Thanks, Brian
Click to expand...
Here is a photo of the rim style

IMG_2378.jpg
 
Have the entire alignment checked, as too much toe can severely exaggerate camber too.
 
Exackerry.
Too little toe makes the outer edges of the tires pull forward, this results in extreme positive camber.
Also, if the lower control arm pivot shafts have egged out their mounts in the K member, you may also have excessive camber either negative or positive. Get it in for an inspection with a reliable alignment shop. Make sure you find a place with a "seasoned" tech that is familiar with classic car suspension and steering. Lots of the young guys may mean well but are trained on what they see most: Late model cars that only have provisions to adjust the TOE. If a tech has no experience with the tricky nuances of a 1/4 turn of the cam bolts here and there, that guy will never be able to help you.
In the unusual case that everything is mechanically fine, you can add washers to fit between the spindle/knuckle and the lower ball joint. An 1/8"washer can add 2 degrees of NEG camber. Mancini Racing has them.
 
Kern Dog said:
Exackerry.
Too little toe makes the outer edges of the tires pull forward, this results in extreme positive camber.
Also, if the lower control arm pivot shafts have egged out their mounts in the K member, you may also have excessive camber either negative or positive. Get it in for an inspection with a reliable alignment shop. Make sure you find a place with a "seasoned" tech that is familiar with classic car suspension and steering. Lots of the young guys may mean well but are trained on what they see most: Late model cars that only have provisions to adjust the TOE. If a tech has no experience with the tricky nuances of a 1/4 turn of the cam bolts here and there, that guy will never be able to help you.
In the unusual case that everything is mechanically fine, you can add washers to fit between the spindle/knuckle and the lower ball joint. An 1/8"washer can add 2 degrees of NEG camber. Mancini Racing has them.
Click to expand...
Excellent description,K.D! Watch out,some alignment schmucks,will toe out of spec,to make the quick buck. ( In order,to make up,for real work to be done...)....
 
Kern Dog said:
Exackerry.
Too little toe makes the outer edges of the tires pull forward, this results in extreme positive camber.
Also, if the lower control arm pivot shafts have egged out their mounts in the K member, you may also have excessive camber either negative or positive. Get it in for an inspection with a reliable alignment shop. Make sure you find a place with a "seasoned" tech that is familiar with classic car suspension and steering. Lots of the young guys may mean well but are trained on what they see most: Late model cars that only have provisions to adjust the TOE. If a tech has no experience with the tricky nuances of a 1/4 turn of the cam bolts here and there, that guy will never be able to help you.
In the unusual case that everything is mechanically fine, you can add washers to fit between the spindle/knuckle and the lower ball joint. An 1/8"washer can add 2 degrees of NEG camber. Mancini Racing has them.
Click to expand...
I have just the right shop for this work they specialize in classics and the owner who is 80 still manages the shop with his son. I need to put tires on this beast to move it. The outer edges are on steel belts and most shops want to do alignment after tires are purchased. Doesn't sound like the tire size will matter too much. Thanks, I am sure there is some part of this suspension we will find needs replaced or repaired.
 
You have it backward, sir. Negative toe (front of tires to the outside) can decrease camber. It's positive toe (front of tires to the inside) that can give the appearance of more camber. This is because of the angle of the spindle in relation to the ball joint axis and SAI (steering axis inclination). Since the spindle does not travel straight in its steering path, but in an arc, this is why camber is affected.

Kern Dog said:
Exackerry.
Too little toe makes the outer edges of the tires pull forward, this results in extreme positive camber.
Also, if the lower control arm pivot shafts have egged out their mounts in the K member, you may also have excessive camber either negative or positive. Get it in for an inspection with a reliable alignment shop. Make sure you find a place with a "seasoned" tech that is familiar with classic car suspension and steering. Lots of the young guys may mean well but are trained on what they see most: Late model cars that only have provisions to adjust the TOE. If a tech has no experience with the tricky nuances of a 1/4 turn of the cam bolts here and there, that guy will never be able to help you.
In the unusual case that everything is mechanically fine, you can add washers to fit between the spindle/knuckle and the lower ball joint. An 1/8"washer can add 2 degrees of NEG camber. Mancini Racing has them.
Click to expand...
 
It looks like it's very high in the front. My theory is since the spindles travel in an arc, the higher the front, the more positive camber. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
furyus2 said:
It looks like it's very high in the front. My theory is since the spindles travel in an arc, the higher the front, the more positive camber. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
My thoughts are similar. The torsion bars are being used in some fashion to affect body height, making the camber very positive while the car is on the ground.
 
RustyRatRod said:
You have it backward, sir. Negative toe (front of tires to the outside) can decrease camber. It's positive toe (front of tires to the inside) that can give the appearance of more camber. This is because of the angle of the spindle in relation to the ball joint axis and SAI (steering axis inclination). Since the spindle does not travel straight in its steering path, but in an arc, this is why camber is affected.
Click to expand...
I don't think that I have it backwards. I think you read it wrong. When the toe is in too far, forward motion of the car wants to jack the front up in the same way a snow skier points the tips of the skis together to slow down in low speeds. This causes the front to rise and the camber to go positive. The opposite is true as well. Too much toe forces the tires rearward while making the suspension want to compress.
Maybe we are saying the same thing but with different words?
 
Kern Dog said:
I don't think that I have it backwards. I think you read it wrong. When the toe is in too far, forward motion of the car wants to jack the front up in the same way a snow skier points the tips of the skis together to slow down in low speeds. This causes the front to rise and the camber to go positive. The opposite is true as well. Too much toe forces the tires rearward while making the suspension want to compress.
Maybe we are saying the same thing but with different words?
Click to expand...
So whichever one is right about negative or positive camber, how would you adjust the torsion bars, more or less torsion?
 
The first picture clearly shows the bottoms of the rockers higher than the center of the wheel. That would lead me to think that the rockers are about 13/14 inches off the concrete, at least 4 to 5 inches too high. What's up with that?
I suggest to lower the front ride height to between 6 and 7 inches clearance between the lowest part of the K-member, on it's centerline, near the balancer; to the ground plain. 6.5 is a good target, for 25.5 inch tall tires. (or say 5.8 inches with your 24.7 rollers). The rear may need to be to be lowered some too. A good target is 1/4 inch higher at the rear of the rocker, than at the front.
From this height, an alignment can be done, with the offset problem-solvers, AFTER a complete inspection up front. If you bring your car to the tech with the suspension heights all messed up,and if he is able to do something at all with it, you will be unhappy. The reason is that the specs that the car will be aligned to will be for when the is traveling in a straight line. Screwed up ride heights,screw up all the non-straight ahead angles that the factory designed into the system. Some of those can be recovered by a tech who is willing to spend a day on your car. Some of them cannot be altered. After the alignment is done, you cannot go messing with rideheight, cuz that will require a new alignment.
If you have not intentionally messed up the rideheight, and if you don't have a particular rideheight in mind, then you can let the tech establish it for you, but you will have to ask him to.
If you do have a rideheight in mind, set it up now, before the car goes to the shop, and ask him not to change it.
If the rideheight gets too far away from the stock specs, it may introduce bump-steer which is really annoying. Bump steer is not that hard to correct, but it takes a tech familiar with the procedure, and it costs extra. A lot extra.
 
Last edited:
Okay, I'll see if I can make sense of it.
Looking at the car from the front: If the front edges of the tires seem to be pointing in to each other, this equates to "Toe-In". These words directly compare to your feet. If both are pointing directly forward where the heels and toes are parallel, both forward, this is ZERO toe. If the toes point to each other, in other words toward the middle. this is TOE IN. If they point away from each other, this is TOE OUT.
The wheel alignment uses the same terminology. When the tires are aligned TOE IN, the steering is in a bind and with the car moving forward, the tires are trying to grab at each other. This results in the car "jacking" or essentially climbing. Torsion bar settings may not even come into play because the forces of the jacking effect are so strong.
A little background though to show you how I know:
I have owned somewhere between 24 and 26 A body cars in my 34 years in the hobby. I had a few that I used as stunt cars for a home movie hobby that I did in the late 90s. I wrecked several Darts, Dusters along with some donated junk cars. The Mopars were used for jumps and off road trails so their suspensions were put to hard use. I learned a bunch about how they react to damage!
I've seen bent lower control arms, ball joints, upper control arm mounts pushed in toward the engine, egged out mounting points in the K members, bent frame rails, buckled floorpans but I never saw one spindle fail and nothing ever broke outright.
Really, the first thing is to get the car on an alignment rack. They often start by setting the ride height, then proceed to inspect and check the base line settings.
See the picture below. Look at the gussets I welded into mine around the hole. That hole is where the lower control arm pivot shaft goes through. Normally this is nothing more than a thin tube welded in with a very small 1/8" bead. When subject to abuse, the small welds fail and that tube starts to move around. A car with worn lower control arm bushings is the worst because the metal to metal condition vibrates the whole area, accelerating the damage.

K gussets 3.JPG
 
Brian Donahue said:
So whichever one is right about negative or positive camber, how would you adjust the torsion bars, more or less torsion?
Click to expand...

First, I'd determine if the steering is causing the car to jack itself up. My point that I've been trying to make is that if the steering toe is off bad enough, you might be able to have NO tension on the torsion bars and still have it sit high with positive camber. Iam not lying when I write that the forces of the steering are very strong.
To set a baseline ride height, you might want to remove a tie rod end from one side. Easy job, you need only a pair of pliers to remove the cotter pin, a 3/4" socket for the castle nut and a pickle fork and hammer. With the steering disconnected this way, it will not affect the ride height. The steering cannot bind anything so you are free to adjust the torsion bar anchors to get the height that you want. I always bounce the car a few times after adjustment to settle the suspension, That OR I just drive the car a little. I have done numerous "eyeball" alignments over the years and am either really lucky or reasonable competent. I always take the car to an alignment shop to finish up.

***** Remember that if the ride height changes much after driving, there is something wrong with the alignment. A 1/8"to 1/4" change is normal but if the camber changes and the car is jacked up or squatted lower, something is out of order.
 
Kern Dog said:
I don't think that I have it backwards. I think you read it wrong. When the toe is in too far, forward motion of the car wants to jack the front up in the same way a snow skier points the tips of the skis together to slow down in low speeds. This causes the front to rise and the camber to go positive. The opposite is true as well. Too much toe forces the tires rearward while making the suspension want to compress.
Maybe we are saying the same thing but with different words?
Click to expand...

It appears so!
 
Kern Dog said:
Okay, I'll see if I can make sense of it.
Looking at the car from the front: If the front edges of the tires seem to be pointing in to each other, this equates to "Toe-In". These words directly compare to your feet. If both are pointing directly forward where the heels and toes are parallel, both forward, this is ZERO toe. If the toes point to each other, in other words toward the middle. this is TOE IN. If they point away from each other, this is TOE OUT.
The wheel alignment uses the same terminology. When the tires are aligned TOE IN, the steering is in a bind and with the car moving forward, the tires are trying to grab at each other. This results in the car "jacking" or essentially climbing. Torsion bar settings may not even come into play because the forces of the jacking effect are so strong.
A little background though to show you how I know:
I have owned somewhere between 24 and 26 A body cars in my 34 years in the hobby. I had a few that I used as stunt cars for a home movie hobby that I did in the late 90s. I wrecked several Darts, Dusters along with some donated junk cars. The Mopars were used for jumps and off road trails so their suspensions were put to hard use. I learned a bunch about how they react to damage!
I've seen bent lower control arms, ball joints, upper control arm mounts pushed in toward the engine, egged out mounting points in the K members, bent frame rails, buckled floorpans but I never saw one spindle fail and nothing ever broke outright.
Really, the first thing is to get the car on an alignment rack. They often start by setting the ride height, then proceed to inspect and check the base line settings.
See the picture below. Look at the gussets I welded into mine around the hole. That hole is where the lower control arm pivot shaft goes through. Normally this is nothing more than a thin tube welded in with a very small 1/8" bead. When subject to abuse, the small welds fail and that tube starts to move around. A car with worn lower control arm bushings is the worst because the metal to metal condition vibrates the whole area, accelerating the damage.




View attachment 1715019996
Click to expand...

Spot on, with alignment class...Stunt cars?...wreckage?....Inspiration!.....


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...pOwZSoc8IpFaOPS8YeSqtg&bvm=bv.147448319,d.cGc
 
Yeah, I was in my early 30s and always wanted to make some sort of home movie with car stunts. The TNN cable TV network started running The Dukes of Hazzard shows twice a day and it sparked some inspiration. I bought a 73 Duster and a wrecked 74 Dart Sport and made a pair of bullshit General Lee cars. The Duster was never jumped or heavily damaged. The Dart Sport was jumped 6 times. The furthest was 81 feet with the car reaching approx 11 feet in the air.

IMG_20151214_0164.jpg


IMG_20151214_0172.jpg


IMG_20151214_0174.jpg
 
Kern Dog said:
Yeah, I was in my early 30s and always wanted to make some sort of home movie with car stunts. The TNN cable TV network started running The Dukes of Hazzard shows twice a day and it sparked some inspiration. I bought a 73 Duster and a wrecked 74 Dart Sport and made a pair of bullshit General Lee cars. The Duster was never jumped or heavily damaged. The Dart Sport was jumped 6 times. The furthest was 81 feet with the car reaching approx 11 feet in the air.

View attachment 1715020454

View attachment 1715020455

View attachment 1715020461
Click to expand...
That just ROCKS.........
 
In 1996, the junkyards were ripe for A body parts. I went through several lower control arms, K members, cheap tires and fenders!
The movie I made originally came in at 1 hr 52 minutes. I played an amateur bounty hunter chasing a dirtbag car thief. A friend of mine played a pro bounty hunter on the case at the same time. I jumped and wrecked the 74 Dart Sport, another 74 Dart Sport was used to fake a rollover scene. I also used a 75 Dart 4 door for the bad guy car, a 78 Toyota Celica got jumped and smashed, an 86 Mitsubishi was smashed, an 89 Geo Prism was jumped, (My Brother cracked a vertebra in the jump)....all of this on county roads, open fields and somehow I never got into any trouble with the cops!
 
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