Ok here goes benifits of degreeing cams?

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bdusted440

bdusted440

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Ok so I have a new cam for my duster and am looking at degreeing it or not. I have always installed them strait up but in dealer work that's what you do. Ive never done it and could use some hands on advice for it to turn out right. here is the cam. Oregon cam number 1357
230/236 @.050" , 284/290 adv, 483/483 lift 110 sep .515/.515 with 1.6 rockers which im running in my 97 360 magnum.
 
the main reason to degree a cam is to basically run a quality control on the cam itself
there are benefits to advancing or retarding a cam, depending on what your looking for in the engine, BUT unless you degree the cam first, you will never know what you are doing
 
Because if you don't do it, how do you know where it's installed?

Where the intake valve hits max lift is big time important. I could care less where it is at .050 but is should be close to the cam card.

I have seen installs that were WAY off. With tolerance stack up, you could be advanced 10 degrees or retarded 8. Neither is good.


I was at a 2 man shop and we were slammed. So we hired a guy to help out. He was retired and was supposed to be able to handle the job. After a month or so he wanted to do assembly work and he was doing well enough we let him. Every engine that cam out of that shop had the cam degreed. As a customer, you didn't get the option. If we put it together, the cam was degreed. Dead stock to blown alky you didn't get a choice. So we let the guy build a very mild 460 Ford. We had a check list along with the spec sheet to make sure everything was done. I even explained to him that we charge for it so it must be done.

Looking over the paperwork, it all looked good. Sent it to the customer. A week later the customer is pissed because the thing won't run. So I have to drive to his shop to see what the hell is going on. Check the firing order..all the ****. We are now burning profit, because instead of being at the shop, I'm dealing with this Ford. In the end, the cam was retarded by 12 degrees or some ****. Cost me a bunch of money to pull the engine, fix the cam and gaskets etc.

Moral of the story: degree EVERY cam EVERY time.
 
yes degree the cam . just so you put it were it should be . remember production parts have tolerances , is a couple degrees this way or that do to chain n gears , and pin placement in the cam , and the grind itself . and of course as said so you can rotate it for more low or top end . unless your buying all custom built parts , no even then .
 
pomonamissel said:
yes degree the cam . just so you put it were it should be . remember production parts have tolerances , is a couple degrees this way or that do to chain n gears , and pin placement in the cam , and the grind itself . and of course as said so you can rotate it for more low or top end . unless your buying all custom built parts , no even then .
Click to expand...
ok so what is the method? ive been searching and reading for a hour now.
 
Use the intake centerline method. Find absolute TDC. Set the indicator to zero on a lifter and the degree wheel to zero.

Run the tappet to .200 lift. Take a measurement. Keep rotating the engine until the lifter is back at .200 and read the degree wheel again. Add the two together and divide by 2. That's the installed centerline.


EDIT: I should have said put a lifter on the INTAKE lobe. I once again ASSumed when I said intake centerline it would be clear, but after I read my own post I can see where it may not be clear.
 
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as noted above...I use two different lifts on the intake lobe to double check the numbers plus check the opening and closing of the intake valve.....once it is all hooked up you are only looking at a couple of minutes...
 
pomonamissel said:
yes degree the cam . just so you put it were it should be . remember production parts have tolerances , is a couple degrees this way or that do to chain n gears , and pin placement in the cam , and the grind itself . and of course as said so you can rotate it for more low or top end . unless your buying all custom built parts , no even then .
Click to expand...
over the years, I have found the gears to be marked wrong, versus cams being wrong. the gears are indexed off. some not much , others , a lot!! just food for thought.
 
yellow rose said:
Use the intake centerline method. Find absolute TDC. Set the indicator to zero on a lifter and the degree wheel to zero.

Run the tappet to .200 lift. Take a measurement. Keep rotating the engine until the lifter is back at .200 and read the degree wheel again. Add the two together and divide by 2. That's the installed centerline.


EDIT: I should have said put a lifter on the INTAKE lobe. I once again ASSumed when I said intake centerline it would be clear, but after I read my own post I can see where it may not be clear.
Click to expand...

Find TDC turning the crank forward and backwards. Some dimension and TDC is in halfway between those marks. When you find #1 intake centerline just rotate the crank forwards, as the engine runs.
 
66fs said:
Find TDC turning the crank forward and backwards. Some dimension and TDC is in halfway between those marks. When you find #1 intake centerline just rotate the crank forwards, as the engine runs.
Click to expand...
Thank you guys im ripping it down now.
 
bdusted440 said:
Ok so I have a new cam for my duster and am looking at degreeing it or not. I have always installed them strait up but in dealer work that's what you do. Ive never done it and could use some hands on advice for it to turn out right. here is the cam. Oregon cam number 1357
230/236 @.050" , 284/290 adv, 483/483 lift 110 sep .515/.515 with 1.6 rockers which im running in my 97 360 magnum.
Click to expand...

Basically, why do some people's cars run great and others, not quite as good?
 
What they all said. Degreeing a cam ensures that the cam is operating as the manufacturer and builder expect regardless of tolerance stack and quality control issues.
 
moper said:
What they all said. Degreeing a cam ensures that the cam is operating as the manufacturer and builder expect regardless of tolerance stack and quality control issues.
Click to expand...
Done for the night.im gonna degree the cam that's in there first for practice. and the install the new one and post results.
 
yellow rose said:
Run the tappet to .200 lift. Take a measurement. Keep rotating the engine until the lifter is back at .200 and read the degree wheel again. Add the two together and divide by 2. That's the installed centerline.
Click to expand...

Respectfully, A lot of lobes aren't symmetrical, some open faster than they close etc. So wouldn't using a high .200" lift reference value be potentially inaccurate using this method? I would have thought a much smaller lift figure like 0.006" would be better for accuracy on lobes of all shapes.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
Respectfully, A lot of lobes aren't symmetrical, some open faster than they close etc. So wouldn't using a high .200" lift reference value be potentially inaccurate using this method? I would have thought a much smaller lift figure like 0.006" would be better for accuracy on lobes of all shapes.
Click to expand...


I've been told even with asymmetrical lobes anything .100 under max lobe lift will work. So, if the OP happened to have a .300 lift lobe (.450 lift with a 1.5 rocker) at .200 lifter rise he'd be ok.

Where the lifter is at .006 lift doesn't mean anything really. Where the valve is, relative to TDC is most critical. Why? Because from there, you know exactly where IVC occurs. You can time it at .006 or .050 and have 10 different ICL's. That's why I don't use the at .050 for anything other than just a double check.

Also, with lifts that low lifter bank angles and variations come into play. I want to know where the valve is at max lift. The rest will take care of itself.
 
bdusted440 said:
Ok so I have a new cam for my duster and am looking at degreeing it or not. I have always installed them strait up but in dealer work that's what you do.
Click to expand...

Check it...I had a brand new Cloyes timing set that had the advance and retard settings backwards. Confirmed with Cloyes they had a bad batch of timing sets get out. If I would have installed it without degreeing the cam, I would have been 4* retarded instead of 4* advanced.
 
bdusted440 said:
Ok so I have a new cam for my duster and am looking at degreeing it or not. I have always installed them strait up but in dealer work that's what you do. Ive never done it and could use some hands on advice for it to turn out right. here is the cam. Oregon cam number 1357
230/236 @.050" , 284/290 adv, 483/483 lift 110 sep .515/.515 with 1.6 rockers which im running in my 97 360 magnum.
Click to expand...
I have the same Oregon grind in my 5.9. I degreed mine just to make sure it was inline with the specs but I installed it straight up. If you decide to advance or retard yours Id love to know how it works out. I've been very happy with mine. Best of luck.
 
Some tips for degreing a cam:

1. Always turn the engine in the same direction, never back up. If you miss it, go around again vs turning the crank backwards...

2. I like to use a solid lifter and adjustable push rod at 0° last to prevent the give in the hydraulic lifters from altering the readings...

3. You can TAKE the readings for lifts below .010" for reference, but I would not USE them for calculating lobe center lines... The ramp speed is too slow to get an accurate reading... The cam may be at the same lift for 3° at .001" reading, so what number do you use for calculating if it varies??? That's why it's better to use .050" or higher to calculate lobe centers.... Same with readings within .010" of max lift on the cam, the valve is moving too slow and you can get more than one degree reading for the same lift...

I like to take readings every .050" lifts... Most of the cams that I have degreed, the lobe peaks were the same when calculated in the mid range for the lifts... Ie: .100", .150", .200", etc...
 
Here is the method. Buy a Comp degree kit, read the instructions and do it.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Here is the method. Buy a Comp degree kit, read the instructions and do it.
Click to expand...


How does the comp method deviate from what's been posted here?

I stumbled on a video about degreeing cams with a gear drive. Ron Iskenderian was part of it. There is no F'ing way I'd do it the way they did it. Just my opinion but they did it the slow way. And they did it at .050 lift and never verified ICL. That is just dumb.
 
yellow rose said:
How does the comp method deviate from what's been posted here?

I stumbled on a video about degreeing cams with a gear drive. Ron Iskenderian was part of it. There is no F'ing way I'd do it the way they did it. Just my opinion but they did it the slow way. And they did it at .050 lift and never verified ICL. That is just dumb.
Click to expand...

It doesnt. What I am telling him is, instead of getting many different opinions, get the kit, watch the video and do it himself. Self taught is best anyway.
 
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