1965 727 won't shift into 3rd

[ChristinesFury]

Hi forum members, first time joining one of these so thanks for any help in advance.

Although not an A body, had the 727 out of my 1965 bb 383 fury rebuilt as it was leaking and barely sliding into 3rd. After having a friend of friend rebuild it, it wouldn't shift into 3rd all the time unless you rev it hard in 2cd then it will shift sometimes.
He stated the valve body was cracked so he jb welded it before he put it together. It shifts into reverse and drive fine, pulls good through 2cd but won't shift into 3rd all the time. Adjusted kd linkage to no avail. shortening makes it slip so adjusted almost although the way out flush. After extensive research only thing i could find was either the valve body or governor. He stated governor was fine.
Luckily my brother had same transmission out of his fury with same pristine valve body. he put it in, still wouldn't shift. pulled it apart as i noticed online possible causes could be governor plugs. bought sonnax governor plugs but they were different (newer 727 presumably) so we had the stems milled to fit. also sonnax oversized servo and accumulator kit as well as transgo shift kit which just included the new manual valve.
while installing the new parts he now notices another hairline crack in the same area as the original value body. So i told him i know how to fix properly with jb so i know it's fixed correctly. application went perfect. he put it all back together, test drove and just informed it's exhibiting nearly the exact same symptoms??? What else could he possibly have done wrong, or have gone wrong? Although i've worked on cars all my life, not a trans guy but after all the research i think i could almost rebuild one myself. but im smart enough to know there's no replacement for experience. Also installed a deep pan and filter extension.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Bob.

 

[TrailBeast]

Does it just rev up more and more and not shift?
Does it have engine braking when it won't shift and you let off the gas, or just coast like it's in neutral until it gets back down to a speed where you feel second again?

 

[ChristinesFury]

Does it just rev up more and more and not shift?
Does it have engine braking when it won't shift and you let off the gas, or just coast like it's in neutral until it gets back down to a speed where you feel second again?

When i rode it it before all the upgrades, didn't feel like neutral, felt like braking like it was in low 2 and not drive. In drive he would go wot then let off and it would eventually shift.

 

[TrailBeast]

When i rode it it before all the upgrades, didn't feel like neutral, felt like braking like it was in low 2 and not drive. In drive he would go wot then let off and it would eventually shift.

You mentioned it still did the same with another VB, so I would have to suspect a catastrophic fluid pressure leak somewhere else, like a cut seal on installation or broken sealing ring.
If it was the governor it probably wouldn't shift from first to second.
(Unless your 1-2 shift is real high in RPM's anyway, then maybe)

 

[oldkimmer]

'I'm with TB on this, seems like a broken sealing ring on the pump or input shaft or a cut seal in the high drum..............kim.....

 

[KickDown]

I would agree with TB & Kim on this. The 2 sealing rings in the reaction shaft suppot seal the hydraulic circuit to the front (rev/high) clutch. The pump has to be fitted with care so as not to damage these rings. Do you have any issues with reverse? It could also be a damaged clutch piston seal in the rev/high clutch.

 

[ChristinesFury]

I would agree with TB & Kim on this. The 2 sealing rings in the reaction shaft suppot seal the hydraulic circuit to the front (rev/high) clutch. The pump has to be fitted with care so as not to damage these rings. Do you have any issues with reverse? It could also be a damaged clutch piston seal in the rev/high clutch.

Thanks guys for responding. Believe reverse works fine. He had the torque converter rebuilt also there was something he had to have machined on the pump, not sure why. He said there was 90 psi when he tested the line pressure.

 

[ChristinesFury]

You mentioned it still did the same with another VB, so I would have to suspect a catastrophic fluid pressure leak somewhere else, like a cut seal on installation or broken sealing ring.
If it was the governor it probably wouldn't shift from first to second.
(Unless your 1-2 shift is real high in RPM's anyway, then maybe)

The 1-2 shift is normal rpm's, again sometimes it shifted to third sometimes would have to wot then left off and would shift. Get the car back soon so i can fiddle with it myself.

 

[TrailBeast]

The 1-2 shift is normal rpm's, again sometimes it shifted to third sometimes would have to wot then left off and would shift. Get the car back soon so i can fiddle with it myself.

Well, if the valve body isn't the problem, and the stuff I mentioned isn't then the only other thing I can think of would be contamination of the valve body or governor from something coming apart or possible to much torque on the valve body attaching bolts.
Sounds like either a fluid pressure loss or the valve body hanging up.
Double check to make sure the filter is on right also, as restriction of the fluid will cause symptoms like this as well.

 

[ChristinesFury]

Well, if the valve body isn't the problem, and the stuff I mentioned isn't then the only other thing I can think of would be contamination of the valve body or governor from something coming apart or possible to much torque on the valve body attaching bolts.
Sounds like either a fluid pressure loss or the valve body hanging up.
Double check to make sure the filter is on right also, as restriction of the fluid will cause symptoms like this as well.

Will do, used a filter extension with the new deep pan... shouldn't be an issue long as it was installed correctly. Before wouldn't go in park and had to shift into d2 then back to drive before driving. All that sorted out. It's a shame after so much time money and new parts it still acting up, and except for the leaks worse off than it was. Unfortunately looks like more money as i'm not going to have him take it apart again and i don't have the expertise to identify the potential internal issues both of you have mentioned. Know of a few local old school trans guys that might be able to help although i may have to pull it myself to keep from sinking further into the abyss. Thanks for your valuable input, i'll post more once i get the car back and can drive myself to get more accurate description of the symptoms if not already.
Bob

 

[TrailBeast]

Will do, used a filter extension with the new deep pan... shouldn't be an issue long as it was installed correctly. Before wouldn't go in park and had to shift into d2 then back to drive before driving. All that sorted out. It's a shame after so much time money and new parts it still acting up, and except for the leaks worse off than it was. Unfortunately looks like more money as i'm not going to have him take it apart again and i don't have the expertise to identify the potential internal issues both of you have mentioned. Know of a few local old school trans guys that might be able to help although i may have to pull it myself to keep from sinking further into the abyss. Thanks for your valuable input, i'll post more once i get the car back and can drive myself to get more accurate description of the symptoms if not already.
Bob

Depending on the filter extension type they have been known to allow air in around them, and this could also cause your symptoms.
The solid billet type seem to have a lot less problems.

 

[ChristinesFury]

Depending on the filter extension type they have been known to allow air in around them, and this could also cause your symptoms.
The solid billet type seem to have a lot less problems.

Got it back today and tried to drive it, after latest mods it's nearly undrivable. I have park, d1, d2 manually and when i did get it to shift into d3 seemed like it was going into neutral and lost all forward gears till i slowed and could get it back into d1. After it warmed up didn't want to manual shift into d2. He removed the spring from one of the servo's added a spacer so it was flush and didn't move, same as another transmission he had which was being used for drag racing. Said it would help shift tighter from 2cd to 3rd but seems it made it manual. The entire transmission is junk now except for lot driving... live and learn.

 

[ChristinesFury]

Got it back today and tried to drive it, after latest mods it's nearly undrivable. I have park, d1, d2 manually and when i did get it to shift into d3 seemed like it was going into neutral and lost all forward gears till i slowed and could get it back into d1. After it warmed up didn't want to manual shift into d2. He removed the spring from one of the servo's added a spacer so it was flush and didn't move, same as another transmission he had which was being used for drag racing. Said it would help shift tighter from 2cd to 3rd but seems it made it manual. The entire transmission is junk now except for lot driving... live and learn.

Oh and reverse works for what it's worth.

 

[TrailBeast]

Got it back today and tried to drive it, after latest mods it's nearly undrivable. I have park, d1, d2 manually and when i did get it to shift into d3 seemed like it was going into neutral and lost all forward gears till i slowed and could get it back into d1. After it warmed up didn't want to manual shift into d2. He removed the spring from one of the servo's added a spacer so it was flush and didn't move, same as another transmission he had which was being used for drag racing. Said it would help shift tighter from 2cd to 3rd but seems it made it manual. The entire transmission is junk now except for lot driving... live and learn.

In my opinion blocking the servo on a trans doing what that thing is doing was a total waste of time.
Should have spent that time pressure testing that thing.
(It has test ports on the outside of the trans just for that)
I don't think I have ever seen a trans acting up that bad that didn't need to come out and get gone through. (Especially after that slipping trying to go into third mention)

 

[ChristinesFury]

In my opinion blocking the servo on a trans doing what that thing is doing was a total waste of time.
Should have spent that time pressure testing that thing.
(It has test ports on the outside of the trans just for that)
I don't think I have ever seen a trans acting up that bad that didn't need to come out and get gone through. (Especially after that slipping trying to go into third mention)

Yep, not wasting any more time or money on it, on to plan B once B is defined :-o