'63 valiant 4 door /6 cruiser questions.

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Realm412

Realm412

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Livermore California
Okay, first off, I'm new to the site (stumbled across it a few days ago) so I haven't really looked through all the posts and information gathered so my apologies in advance.

Here's the deal. I own as stated before, a 1963 four door Plymouth Valiant with a 225 /6 (bought the long block aftr the last one seized on the freeway) and a 727 push button automatic (newly rebuilt). other details include manual drum brakes on all four wheels (want to convert to front end discs), newer wheels and tires upgraded from stock, a front end rebuild kit, new drive shaft with updated u joint, and a 2.25 Flowmaster turbo exhaust.

I've owned this car since I was twelve (i have the original dealer sales reciept from my aunt) and have suffered my entire life with the what it could be complex. I've recently begun my restoration path and would love to do as much restoration as possible myself on a low budget with a small collection of tools and knowledge, i don't mind doing the work, i'm just afraid of doing it wrong. so where i am today.

I currently use this car as my everyday driver and am in the process of installing, clifford 6 into 2 headers (purchased before i heard about dutra duals) and a super six 2bbl intake w/ carb rebuild, and am debating staying with single exhaust or going x pipe crossover into dual exhaust, not sure which is better.

I'd love to restore this car to cruiser status (regular pump gas, 70-80mph standard driving range), but I'd like a little bite to back up the bark. Right now she winds up pretty good around 70, tops out at about 100-110 haven't taken her up that high in a while. So with the modifications that are already in place, what would be suggested from here mechanically?

thanks in advance,
-Greg

valiant003.jpg
 
Greg are you SURE is a 727??? Ill bet its a 904. If not you are leaving a whole lot of HP on the table.
I would get a factory service manual for it as it does a really good job of taking you thru working on the different systems ,etc.
Second set out your budget for the entire car and then break it down into sections. I use the 1.6X factor( if its going to be $100 then its $160) Also be REALLY aware if feature creep.
I started doing a front end job on my Cuda. Brake upgrade, then front end rebuild (you know while its apart) Its still apart 2 years later....
Also watch out on a DD and have a back up plan in place. Remember this thing is 45 years old. And even the best laid plans go wrong..
As for spefics let us know more what you want and what you want to spend.
Frank
 
livermore! alright! im over here in antioch/pittsburg area. i have a 63 valiant wagon im working on. its in hayward at my parents house though. if you are free on friday nights, a bunch of us have a car show in concord. you should swing by. if you need any help on your car let me know.
-aaron-
 
slantscamp said:
livermore! alright! im over here in antioch/pittsburg area. i have a 63 valiant wagon im working on. its in hayward at my parents house though. if you are free on friday nights, a bunch of us have a car show in concord. you should swing by. if you need any help on your car let me know.
-aaron-
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Hello Aaron, I have classes on Fridays so I don't know if I could make it yet. As far as car help you could always part out your wagon for me :-D. Seriously though I may require help here and there and having someone near by that has intimate knowledge of the car is somewhat comforting. I put up a Gallery of my car on here so you can take a peek at her as is.
 
i checked out your pictures. looks good. i cant wait to drive mine. i still need to rewire the whole thing and rebuild the front end. i also got a bigger rear end and some disc brakes to put on it. i was planning on putting my motor back in this weekend, but when i installed my clifford headers i found that the flange was warped. so they are at the machine shop hopefully being fixed.
 
66aCUDA said:
Greg are you SURE is a 727??? Ill bet its a 904. If not you are leaving a whole lot of HP on the table.
I would get a factory service manual for it as it does a really good job of taking you thru working on the different systems ,etc.
Second set out your budget for the entire car and then break it down into sections. I use the 1.6X factor( if its going to be $100 then its $160) Also be REALLY aware if feature creep.
I started doing a front end job on my Cuda. Brake upgrade, then front end rebuild (you know while its apart) Its still apart 2 years later....
Also watch out on a DD and have a back up plan in place. Remember this thing is 45 years old. And even the best laid plans go wrong..
As for spefics let us know more what you want and what you want to spend.
Frank
Click to expand...

Sorry Frank, I thought I replied to you already but apparently I didn't :sad:. First off, you were absolutely correct it's a 904, and I do own the service manual, I've never thoroughly looked through it so was unaware how in depth it really is. I'm actually in the position where I can't allow upgrade creep. This is my only car (my everyday driver) so all of my upgrades have a time limit. Most of the upgrades I've done to it over the years were cause and effect, IE. I blew a tire, I bought new wheels and tires all around, so on and so forth.

I've already thrown money away on the car that I wish I didn't have too, but I was close to losing the car a few months ago when I ran out of places to store it and the transmission was toast. So push came to shove and I decided I wouldn't let go of her and had a shop get her moving again. It was costly, but in the state of affairs it was unavoidable. which basically leads me to the specifics. My budget fluctuates so what I mean by low budget is not throwing money away every time I do something and not aimlessly throwing around the money that I do use. I have no idea how to determine what a realistic budget in total for my car is, as I don't just have the money laying around anywhere. I get extra money and time and I think about the little things I can do to the car to keep the forward restoration progress, while I build my mechanical skill set. As is I don't have tons of free time, an extra vehicle, or a lot of tools at my disposal.

One major question that I do have though and I'm not sure if I'm just an idiot for asking it or not, is dual or single exhaust? As I stated in my previous post I am gathering the parts for taking the stock intake/exhaust manifold off and replacing them with a super six intake 2bbl, and clifford headers, the same headers that slantscamp is showing on his engine. I already have these parts purchased, I'm just waiting on delivery of the super six setup (full intake and carb w/ linkage and spare carb, and he's throwing in the exhaust manifold, which will be nice as a back up since my current stock one is cracked).

So once it's all installed, Y pipe the headers into the single exhaust? or run them out straight to dual exhaust? If dual exhaust is a X pipe crossover better performance, or is it a moot point? To further this question, I currently run a flowmaster turbo muffler, if I went dual exhaust another of those would be fine, or is there a muffler that flat out puts the rest to shame?

I have other questions of course But i'll go one stage at a time and ask them as I go. On a lighter note during the recent rain storm I noticed that my car leaks so much that I might as well just leave all the windows down, this coupled with the fact I still had the factory carpet in the car lead me to discover rotted out floor pans. So I found and purchased a full 4 door set of door seals, front and rear glass gaskets, and in door weatherstripping. Still waiting/looking for a windshield since mine is seperating and cracked. Once I get that done I can start with floor pan replacement. I've also began sanding down the severely troubled rust areas and priming, on my path to the whole car.
 
Greg
I start with the last first. Dont forget the windshield wiper pivot seals( Schumaker makes these) I have a Duster you would think I left rolled down but the wiper seals are all it is. Also check the cowl vents (fresh air Vents). You car you can take the plugs out of the fire wall and get a wire down and/or a small vac hose.
As far as the exhaust just Y pipe and run 2.25 inch all the way to your muffler then 2" out is fine. Anything larger and you will nix the benifits.
Good way to work on it is a piece at the time. I SOOOO wish I would do that instead of seeming to get stuck in these endless projects.
Frank
 
Wow. Must be a different world on the west coast 70 to 80 mph standard driving range. I would be looking at several reckless driving charges in Virginia with our traffic nazis. Anyway good luck with your Valiant.

Oldschoolcuda
 
66aCUDA said:
Greg
I start with the last first. Dont forget the windshield wiper pivot seals( Schumaker makes these) I have a Duster you would think I left rolled down but the wiper seals are all it is. Also check the cowl vents (fresh air Vents). You car you can take the plugs out of the fire wall and get a wire down
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Thanks for the tip on the cowl and wiper seals Frank, I haven't checked those yet but think the wiper pivots are hardened and cracked, and I wouldn't be surprised with the cowl vents I've been blasted by misc. bramble chuff on the freeway a couple of times after a storage sit.

Oldschoolcuda, when I first got the valiant back on the road, I was driving slow lane 60 - 65, you would think i was sitting still. After which I began really looking at the speedometers of people I would ride with, my gf, her parents, my parents all drive 80mph+. Not saying it justifies things but that's how California is ;). It's that basis that I am judging my future rear end swap out.
 
slantscamp said:
i still need to rewire the whole thing and rebuild the front end. i also got a bigger rear end and some disc brakes to put on it.
Click to expand...

My wiring works, but I would like to rewire it, I have no idea how (having said that I'll check my manual) depending on days that you work on your car I might be interested in helping if you needed just to get a more hands on feel for a ground up rebuild, but it looks like your advancing through everything pretty quickly. Did you pull your discs from a wrecking yard? or did you purchase a kit? Depending on my rear end stability (makes a weird rolling sound even though I keep checking the gear oil) my next upgrade/replacement would be my brakes.

Sadly I had been doing a full piece by piece mechanical fix on the car before the transmission went out on me five years ago causing her to go into storage. Now she's back on the road but time was my enemy and five years of sitting basically undid everything I was trying to do.
 
Oldschoolcuda said:
Wow. Must be a different world on the west coast 70 to 80 mph standard driving range. I would be looking at several reckless driving charges in Virginia with our traffic nazis. Anyway good luck with your Valiant.

Oldschoolcuda
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Hey Oldschoolcuda, ff you've ever done any driving on the beltway around DC and you are doing the speed limit (55), you'd get run over even in the far right lane (4 lanes each way). I'd guess average speed on the DC beltway is 70 plus. We live about 80 miles west of DC close to I81. So on our way out to dinner tonight, we were cruising along on 81 around 70 or so when we went by a trooper running radar in the median. Still had 7 or 8 cars pass up like we were standing still when we went by the trooper and he didn't even twitch!. Must be the area you live in!
 
Looks like shes got a lot of potential Realm and as long as you go a section at a time(brakes then elec. then exhaust,etc) you'll get her more road worthy in no time.I'm just jealous of cruising speed guys. Dartman I spent 30 years in Northern Va.(Fairfax,Vienna) & occassionally get out your way and it is a different world than here in southside va. Max speed limit anywhere until you get close to richmond is 60 & you best not go over 70. Luckily I have plenty of backroads for personal test & tune work. Good luck again on your Valiant Realm. Keep us posted.

Oldschoolcuda
 
thanks for the help and suggestions so far guys.

Frank, I ordered the schumaker pivot seals as they were indeed another casualty of time. and by cowl (fresh air) seals you mean these? as you can see by the surrounding rust there is probably an issue there. but from my understanding of these vents other than those seals they are constantly open to the elements anyway aren't they? Isn't the only closure they receive the doors facing the seats?

cowlseal_help.jpg


cowlseal_schematic_closeup.jpg
 
closest image I could find in my manual was this one, are you talking about a larger seal in this location for the cowl? Not what the manual has circled but the rectangular port partially in the lower part of the circle?

frameschem.jpg
 
More Power!

Suggest you purchase a good cylinder head core you can build up. This way you'll have your DD while the cylinder head build up goes on.

You'll need to enlarge the valve seats for oversize valves. Install hardened seats on the exhaust valves. Also have your machine shop clean up the ports and maybe a little re-shaping if the budget allows.

If the rocker arms are in good shape, you can install heavier duty valve springs and mill the head .050". This should still let you get by with regular gas and there is enough range in the rocker arms for correct valve lash adjustment.

Mopar Parts list:

P4286785 1.70" stainless intake valve (stock is 1.50) 6 each
P4286786 1.44" stainless exhaust valve (stock is 1.36) 6 each
P4286813 valve spring for .390/.450 lift camshaft 12 each
or
P4120249 valve spring for .430/500 lift camshaft 12 each

When the cylinder head is finished, it is a simple exchange with the head that is already on the motor.
 
Thanks 72Demon, I was actually thinking about this a bit, but as I have bigger fish to fry atm I was going to hold out. But a bolt on upgrade is always a nice thing. The engine is a stock rebuild I bought a few years back which I think I mentioned earlier, I was looking through my manual and noticed I'm missing a Large chunk that contains Camshaft info (found another manual online and ordered the replacement). How do I know what the camshaft lift is? If I ever decide to upgrade my camshaft for whatever reason does this nullify the head work I can do now without pulling the motor?
 
Head work wont hurt what you do later. Cam depends on what year cam was used as there are a few.
The cowl has external vents that allow water to fill up and come through the fresh air vents. What is supposed to happen is the water is to drain out between the fender and cowl. But the debris collects in that seam and the only way the water can get out is through the fresh air vent. Put a water hose in the cowl and watch....
Frank
 
66aCUDA said:
Head work wont hurt what you do later. Cam depends on what year cam was used as there are a few.
The cowl has external vents that allow water to fill up and come through the fresh air vents. What is supposed to happen is the water is to drain out between the fender and cowl. But the debris collects in that seam and the only way the water can get out is through the fresh air vent. Put a water hose in the cowl and watch....
Frank
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The water hose test was a combination of fender drain and interior leak that was oh so fun :sad:

To address the issue of cam Identification I went and got the numbers off of the block. I believe it's the older engine style because it has only 3 freeze plugs, the numbers were:

12 28
2463430-7

with another number near the manifold and exhaust connection which was:

1382
 
Ok unless its been rebuilt you have the early cam. a 72-74 cam will be better if you want to stay stock. If your getting a new cam anyway I would get an Erson RDP torque cam from the group buy over at .org . Just call Erson and tell them your with slant six.org an you get the special pricing. RDP is reverse dual pattern (remember the slant isnt a V8). Its an Excellent stock like cam.
As for the drain problem...its like a pick up truck drain ....a small cloged passage just doesnt get it done. I use stiff fence wire to push the debris out the bottom after I vac the big chunks out.
Frank
 
I think I'm getting over my head so I'll slow down for now. Thank you Frank and everyone else for all their help. I know so little about the cam and whatnot ATM that I'm better holding off all the questions until I'm more serious about doing it. It runs good, it's not broken so I'm not going to fix it. I just wanted a little bit more out of the engine.

The head work however is a viable option to start now for a side project, when the head gets ported I ideally want it to match the gasket right?

My cam questions came from the springs for cam lift on the head work "72 Demon -P4286813 valve spring for .390/.450 lift camshaft 12 each or P4120249 valve spring for .430/500 lift camshaft 12 each." The engine was a rebuild that I bought from a reputable company 5-6 years ago and as such I have no idea whats going on with it. Which is why I'm here now and asking questions, in order to learn.

Again thank you everyone for your help and patience.
-Greg
 
Greg
Most likely you have a newer cam. If the motor rebuild shop did replace it. You dont need anything special as far as springs etc. unless you get to a big cam. PM me if you get stuck and i can help you get it sorted out.
Frank
 
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