72 Dart Swinger 3.6L Pentastar +T5

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I was curious to see how the 3.6L Torque and Hp curves compared to common 340/360. I couldn't find a decent factory dyno curve of an old combo but the factory used a different SAE test standard back then anyway, so I replotted a 1999 5.9l Magnum.

Stock for Stock, the Pentastar loses out between 1500-4000rpm but kicks in after 4k and pulls hard to its peak Hp at ~6500rpm.
At 5000rpm, the little 3.6L is up a whopping 150ft-lb and 20hp over the 360!
By 6000rpm the Pentastar hits its peak Hp but the 360 went home early.

4.56 rear end should help out the low speed torque and keep the revs in the power band, while the .63 over drive will turn those rear gears into a cruise friendly 2.87,,,

View attachment 1714982787
once a pair of turbos are slapped on there it will change everything. It will also be lighter and more efficient engine. By the way did you see Fast n Loud used an ecoboost v6 in a pantera? completely different car and engine but along the same theoretical lines of using a v6
 
This thread shows an interesting comparison of Wheel Hp of various turbo and supercharged 3.6L to a Hemi 6.4L.(Note 4wd Wrangler have +25% driveline loss, so dyno # are lower than a manual trans 2wd car)
SC vs. HEMI - Let the TRASH talk begin!!

Apparently in a Jeep and Whp vs Whp, the Turbo 3.6L wins out over the Hemi, while losing at least -250lbs(thread claims -400lb saving but that seems a bit much)

Again, over ~4000rpm the 3.6L really shines. That Prodigy turbo is a large single turbo and with just 8psi of boost, it powered a 4200lb Wrangler to a 13.0 @102mph! So how much quicker would a 1200lb LIGHTER 72 Swinger go with the same setup??

The two smaller turbos, I plan to use, should have better low end without sacrificing top end.

power_stock_mag_ripp_prod_hemi.png


torque_stock_mag_ripp_prod_hemi.png
 
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I thought about a Tidal Wave set up for my '14 Challenger. Wallets thin for such adventures right now.
 
I've been meaning to update for a while. Project has been progressing..Collecting parts mostly.

OIL PANS

There appears to be 4-5 different pan configurations for the 3.6L. Ill list all I've found the couple I have.

DEEP REAR SUMP--Mostly Ram Trucks
2013 Ram pick up.jpg


DEEP FRONT SUMP: Grand Cherokee/Durango

2011 Challenger.jpg



MID SUMP JK Wrangler:
fairly Deep,,,Too Deep for stock center link
2012 Wrangler.jpg


SHALLOW FRONT SUMP,,Passenger cars like Minivan, Avenger/200, LX:
upload_2016-11-15_21-39-41.png

This is what I went with because since the 3.6 sits so far back there's plenty room up front for the pan's underbite and since the engine is also so damn tall,, I wanted it to sit as LOW as possible. The low overall height of this pan makes it my choice. Here is where I'd like it to go in reference to my QA1 K frame
20161004_193133.jpg


The passenger car pan is also the most shallowest pan so there's a good chance the stock center link/Idler/Pitman arm could actually fit under it. Fast Ratio arms probably won't though(too long) and are likely to hit before full lock.

The plan is to test fit this pan on the engine and with a Borgeson PS box and see where the Steering Column and motor mounts want to live. I'm actually leaning toward mounting the engine to the Frame rails and NOT the K-Frame,,but have to see about that.
20161110_202507.jpg
 
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Well according to the Googles, the ZF weighs ~90Kg = 200lb. not sure if that includes the TC or but it doesnt matter, it's built like a 55gal drum and typically over $2K. All deal breakers.
Yeah I don't think it's at all a simple thing to give that trans all the info it needs to shift. I was pretty sure the speed signal got sent from the ABS/Stability/TC module and not directly from the wheel sensors.

Regardless, I already have one science project on my plate just getting the 3.6L to stay running(bypass Security) as well as the electronic pedal/throttle to work well without the vehicle speed input. I really don't need to make this job any harder than it is. Furthermore, more than 5 or 6 speeds is mostly just for boosting MPG anyway, so I would never put too much effort into it. So as of today, the T5 manual is path im taking.

I've got plans of doing the same thing but instead, beware all Chevy fans, to an old '52 Chevy coupe that I was left when my dad passed away. I had very similar ideas, light weight, great power, and I was also thinking of gas mileage.

A '52 Chevy Coupe's curb weight from the factory was about 3300 lbs. This engine and either of the 5-speeds above with bell housing will weigh less that 450 lbs dry. With the incredibly short length of this engine I can place it way back and achieve nearly the same 50-50 weight distribution front and back that I have in my 2011 Charger. (Yeah, that's how I got hooked on the 3.6. LOL)

I plan to chop it and drop it with an updated frame and suspension and then supercharge it as well. In all, I should be able to get this car down under 3000 lbs pretty easy and with approximately 400-425 HP at the wheels, it should scream... all while still getting over 30 mpg.

I was at SEMA and I talked to the guys at Sprintex but RIPP didn't have a booth. I talked to a guy with a Jeep with a RIPP on it and he said the RIPP guys were there. He tried to get them over but they didn't arrive before I left. What this guy told me, and I'm dumbing this down so I don't get anyone in trouble if it's not condoned by FCA, is that a certain knowledgeable someone within FCA is working with one of our favorite tuner manufacturers to get full control of the ECM. If it's true, it sounded as though that would allow us the ability to control even the 8-speed autos but I can't confirm anything.

That aside, I was thinking to setting this car up for the potential to do autocross as well. Whether I do or not, it would be one fun right that I could also feel comfortable driving completely across country in as well.

A guy from Diablo Sport also referred me to the Holley guys about a display they have that could integrated into your dash. It's amazing that they can display almost everything you want to watch of one small screen but the downside is that it appeared to only come with a blue screen and black digital graphics. And I'm talking old-school digital, like square and block type letter and numbers. It would be awesome if they could leap forward and give it a high res screen. My desire was to find something that you could select the digital gauges you wanted, be able to size them to your liking, and arrange them however you wanted. I don't know that I'll be able to find that but it would sure revolutionize integrating these new engines into retro-mods.

Anyway, I love this idea and a appreciate all that you've shared!

Mark
 
Wow what an awesome amount of work you have already put in and information you have supplied.
I'm subscribed,:thankyou:
 
I've been meaning to update for a while. Project has been progressing..Collecting parts mostly.

OIL PANS

There appear to be 4-5 different pan configurations for the 3.6L. Ill list all I've found the one couple I have.

DEEP REAR SUMP--Mostly Ram Trucks
View attachment 1714989718

DEEP FRONT SUMP: Grand Cherokee/Durango

View attachment 1714989719


MID SUMP JK Wrangler:
fairly Deep,,,Too Deep for stock center link
View attachment 1714989721

SHALLOW FRONT SUMP,,Passenger cars like Minivan, Avenger/200, LX
This is what I went with because since the 3.6 sits so far back there's plenty room up front and since its also so damn tall,, I want it as LOW as possible. Here is where I'd like it to go in reference to my QA1 K frame
View attachment 1714989720

The passenger car pan is also the most shallowest pan so there's a good chance the stock center link/Idler/Pitman arm could actually fit under it. Fast Ratio arms probably won't though(too long)

The plan is to test fit this pan on the engine and with a Borgeson PS box and see where the Steering Column and motor mounts want to live. I'm actually leaning toward mounting the engine to the Frame rails and NOT the K-Frame,,but we'll see.
View attachment 1714989722

One other thing I was thinking about, which would take quite a bit of measuring, was to actually integrate the front end of a newer Charger into the frame. Not sure if it would fit in my car but did you think about it in yours at all? The reason being, the suspension and handling is essentially Mercedes, it handles amazing, and you could simply bolt on higher end brakes (like off a SRT8) easily. Also, if you need replacement parts or pads, you could get them anywhere. Just a thought I've been playing with.
 
One other thing I was thinking about, which would take quite a bit of measuring, was to actually integrate the front end of a newer Charger into the frame. Not sure if it would fit in my car but did you think about it in yours at all? The reason being, the suspension and handling is essentially Mercedes, it handles amazing, and you could simply bolt on higher end brakes (like off a SRT8) easily. Also, if you need replacement parts or pads, you could get them anywhere. Just a thought I've been playing with.

Latest issue of mopar action has a guy who did that exact thing.
 
Im kicking around the idea of getting the 3.6 fired up first before fussing with it after its installed. Seems much simpler to bird dog issues. Not all these parts will make it onto the Dart.

Recent Parts acquisition.
  1. LX Srt Radiator and Cooling fan assy--Brand new, RockAuto $220 shipped(much cheaper than i'd ever thought). 18" total height fits an Abody. Saw one installed in a Dart on FB Group G3 Hemi Swap and it looked damn good. LX cars used same radiator for V8 and V6,,and its very light.
  2. Rubicon Dash harness and Steering Column/wheel; gets me factory wiring from the TIPM/PCM to OBDII connector, Pedal Sensor & Ignition Switch.
  3. Caravan Pedal sensor,,,The Wrangler one was at an odd angle and it bottomed out on the firewall before WOT. Minivan looked to be a better fit,,we'll see
  4. 2015 Wrangler Flywheel and Pressure Plate--junkyard score $150 shipped. I desperately needed the Flywheel to determine if my NAG1 bell can be used to mount my T5(optimistic it will)...I just couldn't bring myself to spend the $420 for a new one.
 
LX Srt Radiator and Cooling fan assy--Brand new, RockAuto $220 shipped(much cheaper than i'd ever thought). 18" total height fits an Abody. Saw one installed in a Dart on FB Group G3 Hemi Swap and it looked damn good. LX cars used same radiator for V8 and V6,,and its very light.

Hi myduster360,
Very interesting project. Your investigative work will be helpful for many members looking to do something similar in the future. Would you mind providing the year of the LX and/or part numbers for the radiator and cooling fan assy? Since these were used for both v6 and v8, this might be a viable option for many different engine combinations in our a-body projects.

Thanks,
Travis
 
Hi myduster360,
Very interesting project. Your investigative work will be helpful for many members looking to do something similar in the future. Would you mind providing the year of the LX and/or part numbers for the radiator and cooling fan assy? Since these were used for both v6 and v8, this might be a viable option for many different engine combinations in our a-body projects.

Thanks,
Travis

I had a lot of trouble finding decent info on the 3.6L Pentastar so I figured I would catalog all the info I could for the next guy.

I'll be using the Radiator and Fans from a 2009-2014 STD Cooling.
Radiator: APDI/PRO 8013157 {#68050126AA}
Fans: APDI/PRO 6017131 {Mopar 68050129AA}
upload_2016-11-22_12-46-28.png


Following video and pic are from FB group "G3 Hemi Swap"
It shows how well the LX radiator fits an A-body(imo very well)


14457393_1786235508315446_1019303790324147081_n.jpg
 
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Since LX cars have their radiator cap on their goofy shaped coolant bottle, this $12 filler neck from Dorman(902-305) and made for a 00-04 Durango should work. I'll double check the ID of the my upper hose before ordering.

upload_2016-11-16_13-50-27.png
 
Im kicking around the idea of getting the 3.6 fired up first before fussing with it after its installed. Seems much simpler to bird dog issues. Not all these parts will make it onto the Dart.

Recent Parts acquisition.
  1. LX Srt Radiator and Cooling fan assy--Brand new, RockAuto $220 shipped(much cheaper than i'd ever thought). 18" total height fits an Abody. Saw one installed in a Dart on FB Group G3 Hemi Swap and it looked damn good. LX cars used same radiator for V8 and V6,,and its very light.
  2. Rubicon Dash harness and Steering Column/wheel; gets me factory wiring from the TIPM/PCM to OBDII connector, Pedal Sensor & Ignition Switch.
  3. Caravan Pedal sensor,,,The Wrangler one was at an odd angle and it bottomed out on the firewall before WOT. Minivan looked to be a better fit,,we'll see
  4. 2015 Wrangler Flywheel and Pressure Plate--junkyard score $150 shipped. I desperately needed the Flywheel to determine if my NAG1 bell can be used to mount my T5(optimistic it will)...I just couldn't bring myself to spend the $420 for a new one.
I think if you have a run stand or can make one, it would be ideal to run the engine before its in the car. Its easier to work on outside the car
 
Hi myduster360,
Very interesting project. Your investigative work will be helpful for many members looking to do something similar in the future. Would you mind providing the year of the LX and/or part numbers for the radiator and cooling fan assy? Since these were used for both v6 and v8, this might be a viable option for many different engine combinations in our a-body projects.

Thanks,
Travis

Got the new Radiator and Fan in. Drops in for the most part and looks like it was made for it.
Weighs 17lb

20161117_180941 (1024x755).jpg


20161117_181016 (1024x860).jpg
 
Since LX cars have their radiator cap on their goofy shaped coolant bottle, this $12 filler neck from Dorman(902-305) and made for a 00-04 Durango should work. I'll double check the ID of the my upper hose before ordering.

View attachment 1714990004

Those things can get very brittle and crack. Jegs makes an aluminum version for about $15 more.
After my mom's 3.9 Dakota scalded the crap out of me, I replaced hers and the one on my 2000 Dakota R/T.

I like this swap Idea. We rented a '14 T&C for a trip through the mountains of North Carolina (several times, actually).
One one occasion we had 9 people and luggage for three of them stuffed in there, and were traipsing about in the back country up and down steep switchback gravel roads.

That 3.6 didn't even break a sweat. I've been a big fan of that motor ever since.
 
I was curious to see how the 3.6L Torque and Hp curves compared to common 340/360. I couldn't find a decent factory dyno curve of an old combo but the factory used a different SAE test standard back then anyway, so I replotted a 1999 5.9l Magnum.

Stock for Stock, the Pentastar loses out between 1500-4000rpm but kicks in after 4k and pulls hard to its peak Hp at ~6500rpm.
At 5000rpm, the little 3.6L is up a whopping 150ft-lb and 20hp over the 360!
By 6000rpm the Pentastar hits its peak Hp but the 360 went home early.

4.56 rear end should help out the low speed torque and keep the revs in the power band, while the .63 over drive will turn those rear gears into a cruise friendly 2.87,,,

View attachment 1714982787
I was measuring up gears on a spreadsheet I made as well. With the TKO I'd be coming out of 1st at 35.7 MPH@6500 RPM's, which is pretty tight and probably perfect for Autocross. However, at 65 mph in OD (.68) I'd be running 2463 RPM's. Not terrible but in my Charger now I'm pushing a 4000 lb car at 65 MPH around 2000 RPM's. I'll probably be driving it on the highway far more often than racing it but I was thinking I may shoot for something more in the range of a 3.91 instead. Have you any concerns of the 4.56's heating up while driving normally?
 
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I was measuring up gears on a spreadsheet I made as well. With the TKO I'd be coming out of 1st at 35.7 MPH@6500 RPM's, which is pretty tight and probably perfect for Autocross. However, at 65 mph in OD (.68) I'd be running 2463 RPM's. Not terrible but in my Charger now I'm pushing a 4000 lb car at 65 MPH around 2000 RPM's. I'll probably be driving it on the highway far more often than racing it but I was thinking I may shoot for something more in the range of a 3.91 instead. Have you any concerns of the 4.56's heating up while driving normally?

During normal driving(steady interstate) the ring and pinion gears are so lightly loaded that I doubt there will be much issue.
 
Got my Wrangler 3.6L Flywheel in the mail yesterday. The 3.6L pilot bearing presses into the flywheel NOT THE CRANK! So a mock up was needed to see exactly how far from the engine block the trans needed to be. So based on the input shaft engagement into the pilot bearing, the trans wants to be ~7.6" from the engine. The 3.6L NAG1 bellhousing is 7.3" in depth, which means a ~.3125"[5/16] spacer/adaptor is need to mount the trans, which imo is just about PERFECT!

I made a quick 3D model of the NAG1 Bell, T5 and spacer to get an idea on how it all stacks up. Just need to work out the exact dimensions of the adapter plate and finalize the mounting bolts/holes and matching hardware.

upload_2016-11-22_13-0-27.png


upload_2016-11-22_12-59-17.png


Reminder of what the NAG1 3.6L Bellhousing looks like.
upload_2016-11-22_13-6-5.png
upload_2016-11-22_13-6-29.png
upload_2016-11-22_13-7-6.png
 
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