75 Duster - Front End Floats - Looses Camber

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RPETRACEK

RPETRACEK

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Okay so we went through the front end and rebuilt/replaced everything "EXCEPT" the lower control arm bushing because they looked really new and had writing on them.

My friend bought the car this way.

Here is the issue. After putting it back together we sent it to the alignment shop and seemed fine. Less than a mile away.

After a test drive from putting an intake and 4 barrel on it. The Toe and Camber blew out and the torsion bar adjuster is sitting on the frame?

We had a about 1/2 - 3/4 of an inch clearance before we starting driving it.

But about after a mile of driving it the camber blows out and the torsion bars sit back down on the frame and the car is impossible to drive it floats in the front end all over the road!!!

Help Guru's .. Like working on the car just don't know where to go next.

We also paint marked all our tie rod ends and adjustments and nothing seems to be moving. And we really laid into the upper arm bolts to make sure they were tight.

Is there a link here on procedure? I read through a bunch of tech articles but haven't found one with my issue yet.

Thanks for the help.

Ron
 
Check the Lower control arm pivot tubes in the K frame, when the tube breaks out of the frame it causes the symptoms you described. It's a hard area to check, especially if the K frame is greasy.
 
daliant said:
Check the Lower control arm pivot tubes in the K frame, when the tube breaks out of the frame it causes the symptoms you described. It's a hard area to check, especially if the K frame is greasy.
Click to expand...

Yep
It sure does sound like either the bushings or the pin.
 
So I looked and they are clean. I don't see any "breaks" or cracks.

Since I am a newb to abody stuff is there any photos someone might be able to point me to.

Or do I need to pull the lower arm to inspect it? I have read that this is a bear of a job?

Thank for your guys quick input. Appreciate it.

Ron
 
RPETRACEK said:
Or do I need to pull the lower arm to inspect it? I have read that this is a bear of a job?

Ron
Click to expand...

:D Guess what?
It's not that bad to do, but you might be able to pull the nut off and get a bit closer look at the tube welds.
Getting it fixed is worse if that's what it is.
Also keep in mind that it might not be a lower bushing (it just sounds like it)
I could be twisted T bar sockets, since you said it dropped back down.

I'll look for a picture for you and come back.

Ok, got it.
This guys car was wandering and had alignment problems also, and this is what he found.
First pic is what was found, and the second pic is the solution.
Sometimes that cracked tube in the first pic breaks completely away instead of just cracking.
 

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You can see where this socket twisted off almost completely.
Recognize this area?

Look for ripples and stress marks around yours.
 

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That is great help! Thank you Trailbeast and Daliant!

The pictures are a great help to pinpoint. Went to them and the drivers side that drops quicker than the right side has already been re-welded. So we are going to pull them off and take a closer look.

I will update you if that is our fix.
 
RPETRACEK said:
That is great help! Thank you Trailbeast and Daliant!

The pictures are a great help to pinpoint. Went to them and the drivers side that drops quicker than the right side has already been re-welded. So we are going to pull them off and take a closer look.

I will update you if that is our fix.
Click to expand...

Cool.
Hope you get it.
 
While you're at it............don't forget to check THE REAR ENDS of the T-bars. If these sockets are rusted away....................
 
67Dart273 said:
While you're at it............don't forget to check THE REAR ENDS of the T-bars. If these sockets are rusted away....................
Click to expand...

Rear Ends? I just pulled the drivers and all that was there was rubber pieces and the end that goes through the k frame just pulled out by hand?

Do I need to remove that sleeve on that end? or does the press shop do that?

Thanks
 
Next time around set the toe yourself, it ain't worth paying an alignment shop $100 to do so; 2 tape measures, taped to a low, and consistent point low on the tread, front and back, center the steering wheel, and adjust until you have 1/16-1/8 toe in. Done.

Caster can be done with a piece of 1x4 with a notch for the hub, cut to the inside of the rim, and an angle finder. -0.5 degrees.

These front ends are real simple to deal with. Hope that helps.

Look into thrust angle alignment while your at it. I took straight as possible 1x4's and put them behind the rear tires, and in front of the front tires and measured both sides, thrust on the cars is almost always off to the drivers side, after 4 1/2" bolts shimmed in front of the passenger side leaf hangar, it sure hooks up nice.
 
Okay we got the lower control arm bushings in and everything is a lot tighter. It drove pretty good for the first 2 minutes then the torsion springs started to lower?

The adjusting arms are now again on the frame? Front tire tops are kicking in. Toe is straight. It just wont hold its ride height!!! :banghead:

The tubes through the k frame are all solid. And as stated we replaced all the bushings. I have no idea why this is dropping.

NOTE: I just called an old school alignment guy and he says we have to lower the a-arm to about a 45 degree angle then put the torsion bar in the arm and jack it up? To pre load the torsion springs?

OR/ when the machine shop pressed in the bushings they may have split the inner rod and that would allow the ride height to drop?

Ron
 
BTW, the camber 'blowing out' is the result of the ride height change. Most stock type unequal length double control arm suspensions will have constant chamber changes as ride height goes up and down. So focus on why the ride hieght is dropping.


I have not worked on one of these for years, so everyone keep me striaght on this.... Just a question: Are you tigthening up the LCA bushing bolt through the K frame while the car is up in the air and the LCA's hanging way down? These bolts should be left a bit loose so they can turn while you set the car down and adjust the static ride height with the torsion bars. Once the ride height is set with the T bar adjustment, and the car is on the gournd and level, THEN you lock down the LCA bushing bolt tight. If I recall right, this centers the LCA bushing rubber in the ride travel.


If you lock the LCA bolt down first in that LCA bushing type with the car off the ground and the LCA at a drooping angle, then the LCA rubber will act as a spring as it twists as you lower the car the first time. The extra 'spring' makes you falsely adjust the Tbar too light. Soon afterwards the whole LCA bushing can twist in the arm and this 'artifical spring' will be gone, and the lighter-than-it should-be T-bar adjustment will not be enough to hold the car at the right ride height.

Did the new LCA bushings go into the arms pretty easily? If so, the LCA holes for the bushings outer sleeve may be a bit worn now.

Where is the LCA oriented when you slip the T-bar in the LCA socket? Kinda flat out or more vertical-ish?
 
Curious - how far in are the T bar adjusting bolts? As others have said, if you don't put the t bars back into the rear sockets with the LCA's somewhat drooped way down, disconnected from the upper a arms you may never have enough adjustment left in the T bars in order to get them up to tension. And as others have said, you have to tighten the pin that goes thru the K frame when there is a load on the LCA, otherwise you will tear the LCA bushing loose from its can. And by the way, are the strut rod bushings new, and tight?
 
Either something is twisting, or there is some reason we are not getting here.
No matter how you put the torsion bar in, if you adjust the ride height and it drops back down after a bit it's not a clocking issue. (If it was it would drop immediatly when it started to roll, if not sooner)
It's got to be the sockets twisting, the adjusters threads are trashed or the T bars have lost thier ability to return.

If you adjust the bar tension and it drops afterwards but the adjusters are in the same places it's the bars or the sockets.
If it's not the sockets, it's the bars or the adjusters.
If you adjust and (it drops) and the adjusters have moved position, it's the adjuster threads.
If the adjusters are in the same places and the sockets are good, then it HAS to be the bars.

Correct?

Also, none of the mentions about tightening the pin with weight on the suspension applies with poly bushings (only rubber press in's)
 
nm9stheham said:
BTW, the camber 'blowing out' is the result of the ride height change. Most stock type unequal length double control arm suspensions will have constant chamber changes as ride height goes up and down. So focus on why the ride hieght is dropping.


I have not worked on one of these for years, so everyone keep me striaght on this.... Just a question: Are you tigthening up the LCA bushing bolt through the K frame while the car is up in the air and the LCA's hanging way down? These bolts should be left a bit loose so they can turn while you set the car down and adjust the static ride height with the torsion bars. Once the ride height is set with the T bar adjustment, and the car is on the gournd and level, THEN you lock down the LCA bushing bolt tight. If I recall right, this centers the LCA bushing rubber in the ride travel.


If you lock the LCA bolt down first in that LCA bushing type with the car off the ground and the LCA at a drooping angle, then the LCA rubber will act as a spring as it twists as you lower the car the first time. The extra 'spring' makes you falsely adjust the Tbar too light. Soon afterwards the whole LCA bushing can twist in the arm and this 'artifical spring' will be gone, and the lighter-than-it should-be T-bar adjustment will not be enough to hold the car at the right ride height.

Did the new LCA bushings go into the arms pretty easily? If so, the LCA holes for the bushings outer sleeve may be a bit worn now.

Where is the LCA oriented when you slip the T-bar in the LCA socket? Kinda flat out or more vertical-ish?
Click to expand...

I'm also thinking the assembly method is the fault.
Destroying lower arm bushings is a easy mistake to make.
 
TrailBeast said:
No matter how you put the torsion bar in, if you adjust the ride height and it drops back down after a bit it's not a clocking issue.
Click to expand...
I am kinda thinking there is a false initial tension due to something (like the bushing tightened with the LCA's in full droop) but the t-bars may be indexed 1/6 of a turn off and lets it drop to the stops as mentioned once the false tension goes away. If the bars are indexed off, then the adjustments will be at or near their limits; as suggested, where are these set? Any photos available, please?

Aaaand...I just saw this addition to the prior OP's post:
"NOTE: I just called an old school alignment guy and he says we have to lower the a-arm to about a 45 degree angle then put the torsion bar in the arm and jack it up? To pre load the torsion springs?"
YES, that sounds about right. If the LCA's were nearly flat when the T-bars were inserted, then they are 1/6th off-index.

Re-check the T-bars, AND loosen the LCA bushing bolts and don't tighten them 'til the ride height is set properly with the T-bars adjustment, and tighten the LCA bushing bolts with the car level on the ground. (If it were me, I would also make sure that the upper control arm bushings were not tightened 'til they were at the right ride height, but this can be done with the spindle disconnected for the UCA's.)

TrailBeast said:
Also, none of the mentions about tightening the pin with weight on the suspension applies with poly bushings (only rubber press in's)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I just learned this about 3 hours ago! I assume the LCA bushings being used are stock rubber types from the OP's descriptions.....
 
nm9stheham said:
BTW, the camber 'blowing out' is the result of the ride height change. Most stock type unequal length double control arm suspensions will have constant chamber changes as ride height goes up and down. So focus on why the ride hieght is dropping.


I have not worked on one of these for years, so everyone keep me striaght on this.... Just a question: Are you tigthening up the LCA bushing bolt through the K frame while the car is up in the air and the LCA's hanging way down? These bolts should be left a bit loose so they can turn while you set the car down and adjust the static ride height with the torsion bars. Once the ride height is set with the T bar adjustment, and the car is on the gournd and level, THEN you lock down the LCA bushing bolt tight. If I recall right, this centers the LCA bushing rubber in the ride travel.


If you lock the LCA bolt down first in that LCA bushing type with the car off the ground and the LCA at a drooping angle, then the LCA rubber will act as a spring as it twists as you lower the car the first time. The extra 'spring' makes you falsely adjust the Tbar too light. Soon afterwards the whole LCA bushing can twist in the arm and this 'artifical spring' will be gone, and the lighter-than-it should-be T-bar adjustment will not be enough to hold the car at the right ride height.

Did the new LCA bushings go into the arms pretty easily? If so, the LCA holes for the bushings outer sleeve may be a bit worn now.

Where is the LCA oriented when you slip the T-bar in the LCA socket? Kinda flat out or more vertical-ish?
Click to expand...


NAILED IT! THANKS AWESOME!

It was the lower control arm bushing bolt being to tight before setting the ride height. We loosened the bolt.. set the ride height. Toe/camber and driven it about 10 miles so far and it it HOLDING.

Not to mention that we did have to replace the lower control arm bushings and fix a crack as well. But Together an AWESOME helpful experience and I am sure I would NOT have figured it out without this forum and Your guys Help.. THANK YOU!

CHEERS! If you were close I would thank you with a Beer!

Now if I could get it to handle a little better in the front end I would be Ecstatic!!!

Once again thank you everyone that gave input!

Case Closed ..

BTW: I don't see the "Star" to give you all a "thank U" rating. But thank you.
 
Cool beans...that is good news; and congrats. It is amazing how much torque a new rubber bushing can have when twisted. Feels good to get past an odd problem....you could mail the beer but it might be a wee bit flat by the time it got here. I'll just hoist one locally to help you celebrate, and keep my fingers crossed that it is 100% fixed now.
Regards, Mark B.
(PS; there is a 'Thanks' button in the lower right corner of other folks' posts; kinda a neat feature of this site. You can't 'Thank' yourself however! LOL)
 
I was under the impression that he kept adjusting it and it kept coming down, and not that it was getting lifted back up between adjustments.
My bad.

Good call Mark.
Nice job.
 
TrailBeast said:
I was under the impression that he kept adjusting it and it kept coming down, and not that it was getting lifted back up between adjustments.
My bad.

Good call Mark.
Nice job.
Click to expand...

I was! I kept adjusting it and it would come down. So we fixed the lower control arm bushings and put it back together and it did the same thing. We adjusted it and it came down.

First scenario was different reason. Second scenario was also a different reason. But at least I can now start growing my hair back. :finga:

2nd Test Drive in T -1 hr.
 
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