A833 1-2 Clutch Sleeve Gear Binding

[Slant6Racer42]

First time rebuilding a 1964 A833 out of a slant 6 Valiant. Between tips found here, the factory service manual, and Brewer's, the rebuild has gone very well.

However, once I got everything back in the case minus the gearshift control housing, I was testing the gears to ensure everything was engaging properly. Everything was fine except for in 1st gear, the clutch sleeve gear seems to bump against the countershaft gear occasionally as I turn the shaft. I can see the clutch sleeve sort of bump as it hits the countershaft gear and occasionally will almost bind up and stop the shaft rotation entirely.
Every other gear and sleeve feels perfect. The clustergear endplay ended up around 0.016" with all new thrust washers, rollers, etc. Nothing appears to be bent or have excessive runout.

Anyone experience this before? Anything specific I should check closer? What am I missing? Is it possible to have too much endplay on the 1st speed gear?
When I put the new center main bearing in, it went on perfect all the way down against the shoulder. It's circlip went in just fine as well. The 1st speed gear does have the most endplay of any of the gears though...

I can try to post a picture or video of this if needed.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I used to build manual transmissions for a living, and have built and modified many many A833s ..... not saying I'm an expert, lol. but;
if you had not described this; I would have said it's impossible.
I assume you have the sleeve correctly oriented on the hub, so that the reverse teeth point in the same direction on both the sleeve and the cluster., and the reverse gear in the opposite direction........ right.

A picture would be very helpful. doesn't have to be a video.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Is it possible to have too much endplay on the 1st speed gear?

Not unless you put the wrong bearing on the back.
A833s usually have a trans specific bearing back there which is wider than the stuff you buy at the bearing places. It used to be that you could only buy it at the dealer. I bought one of those a few years ago as a special order from a bearing specific jobber. It came from Japan, took a really long time, and cost me nearly $200Can. Ouch!
However;
in your case,
My guess is that your back bearing may not be properly located by the big snapring in the tailhousing.

BTW
My A833 trans has 1964 gears in it, but uses a Passon aluminum case, and a GearVender long-tail adapter on the back, a late 727-sized M/S, a Passon late-style cover, and with mongrel synchronizers modified for street slick-shifting.
Jus saying.

 

[Slant6Racer42]

Let me post a picture here in a minute or so to make sure I have everything back in there correctly. I'm pretty sure it is, but you never truly know!
I should have specified better - it is the reverse gear teeth on the 1-2 sleeve that are hitting the 1st gear on the cluster side. I can engage reverse without issue though with the sleeve in its neutral position.

I bought the rebuild kit from Brewer's. The front bearing and the center bearing provided in the kit are the exact same 307 bearing. I measured them against the bearings I took out and everything was identical.
Supposedly on the later 833s, the center bearing was a very light press fit while the early ones, like mine, have a heavier press on this bearing? It was a pain to get that old bearing off. It doesn't really make sense to me that they would use a press fit on the inner race as well as snap ring...but I guess that is how it is.
I heated the new bearing to install it and it went down all the way on the main shaft until it landed solidly up against the shoulder. Then the snap ring went in behind it without issue. It would seem that even if I had a thicker center bearing, it still result in the same gear endplay due to that shoulder...but I could be wrong!

 

[AJ/FormS]

It would seem that even if I had a thicker center bearing, it still result in the same gear endplay due to that shoulder...but I could be wrong!

not wrong, you got that right. The big snapring in the tail, locates the entire gear train in the case, so that they stay in their designed relationship. End play on first gear should be a non-issue.

 

[Slant6Racer42]

Ahh, I see what you are saying. Maybe I need to get the tail housing on a bit further? It went on well enough and I was able to get that big snap ring in without much fuss.
Here are the pics of the gearsets...I do not have the reverse detent ball in yet, but the reverse gear is slid all the way forward so I can clearly see it is not interfering with anything.
I really appreciate your feedback and help with this!

 

[AJ/FormS]

Those guts look pretty nice but;
that is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overshifted into First. Yur not working on a motorcycle trans here, lol.
Put the synchros into neutral, and Remove the 3-4 fork. Level the cover surface of the trans, front to back; by eye is fine.
Put the 1-2 fork in neutral, and
then install the cover. Install the two special long-shouldered bolts into their respective locations, and snug the cover down with just those two bolts. Spin the output-shaft while shifting into first. After it snicks in, continue to rotate the shaft another turn. If your rear seal has a dustboot on it and it is difficult to reach the M/S, then just spin the input gear. It'll be Ok .
Stop, remove the two bolts, and very carefully lift the cover straight up, leaving the fork behind. Don't touch anything else!
After the cover is off, just look. See where the slider ends up, You might find an Eighth of an inch or more between the face of first gear and the face of the slider. This would be normal.

You see where the small pointy clutch teeth are on low gear?
and you see where the matching pointy teeth are inside the slider?
Well, the slider teeth only have to overlap the clutch teeth by about 6>7/32nds inch (That is about .200 inch give or take), to do their jobs; any more is overkill.
Here's something else you can do;
Stick something down between the clutch teeth and the low gear, like a paint-department stirstick. Snuggle it up to the face of low gear, allow NOT more than 3/32 between the opposite side of the stick to the back of the clutch teeth. If you have more, insert a shim next to the lowgear to push the stick in the direction of the slider. Now, push the slider over to the stir stick. That going to be about the correct amount of engagement.
Now see if the slider still wants to hit the cluster, lol.

 

[Slant6Racer42]

Thank you!! Man, that is good news compared to what my mind was thinking. I feel really stupid now because I wasn't even thinking about that. I was just sliding the sleeves around by hand thinking that's where they end up when in gear. If that sleeve had about 1/8" standoff from the gear like it would normally with the forks shifting it, it won't be anywhere near hitting the cluster.

I am still waiting on some parts from Brewer's (new forks and levers) so I won't be able to test that until I get them. But this makes complete sense.

Thanks again man. I really appreciate your quick response and your tolerance of my naivety with the 833.

 

[AJ/FormS]

most fun I've had today!
You don't know how stupid I felt, the first time I had sex .... edit; I shouldda said ; tried to have sex, lol.
Everything is hard the first time; but gets better with repetition.

 

[Slant6Racer42]

Haha! Well, it is really appreciated. Seriously.
Funny you mention motorcycle transmissions - as far as manuals go, other than a Toyota R150F and a Ford Model A 3-speed, motorcycle transmissions are what I have the most experience with rebuilding . So that'll be my excuse!