Champion radiator - I cut her open

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1967formulaS

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Cut the top and bottom tanks of my old champion radiator that was in my 440, 67 barracuda.
The cores are tiny. I could barely fit some 0.6 MIG wire through.

This rad was setup with a shroud and twin 1300cfm fans. Still didnt work.
I'm planning on buying a decent core and making a twin pass with some spal fans and another shroud. Maybe 2x low profile pullers and 1 big arse pusher on the front.
Thoughts...

DSC_0838.JPG
 
Huh.
I bought my Champion radiator based on positive reviews and so far, it has been fine though admittedly, my motor isn’t asking a lot of the cooling system yet.

So I’m not sure how the radiator should have looked when cut open...seems normal to me but then again, I spend a very small percentage of my time thinking about radiators so maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about.

What setup do you have on the 440? How is it being driven? Did you already check the usual t-stat and water pump first? Did you flush/rule out obstructions in the cooling system?
 
To clarify,
This rad was in the car before I rebuilt the motor. I had issues with it previously, so it was on my kill list.
Fresh motor build, About 500hp, tested the new tstat, plenty of airflow, timing 12/36, tried a bit more, no improvement, new rad cap tried a few . Even put a pusher fan on front and 2 pullers with a shroud, Still didnt cool her down at idle.
Cold to 220 in 15 mins at idle with fans on all the time and no hood on the car.... Wtf....
If I'm driving around, maybe I'd get 25mins of drive time before I freak out and it's up around 210.
Tried a few different radiator flushes, Pulled it out today and cut her open. Out of all those cores I had approx 12 cores partially blocked, Probably from before the engine was rebuilt.
 
As long as the tubes aren't plugged, more smaller tubes will get rid of more heat then fewer larger tubes. This is due to more surface area contact. But the tubes can/will get plugged up easier, if there is trash in the cooling system.
 
My Champion cools just fine..wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better then the factory,thats for sure!!
 
Doubt it. I run a 3 core Be-cool radiator in mine, and rarely run the fans. As long as I'm moving the temp never gets above 190.
In heavy traffic I only run one of the two fans. The 2nd fan has been relegated to a back up since it's not needed. If your hot then something else is wrong.

Could be the rad and could be the water pump. Try a hi-flow pump and a new rad and see what happens.
 
As long as the tubes aren't plugged, more smaller tubes will get rid of more heat then fewer larger tubes. This is due to more surface area contact. But the tubes can/will get plugged up easier, if there is trash in the cooling system.
that Contradicts everything I've heard. Even radiator shops recommend less and bigger tubes !
 
that Contradicts everything I've heard. Even radiator shops recommend less and bigger tubes !
More surface area=more heat transfer. The problem is, there is a line where you can get too small and thus end up with the tubes clogged much easier, which is why most shops recommend larger tubes.
 
Those tubes are too narrow. Period. They are a good width, but they are so narrow, they cannot flow enough water to transfer heat efficiently. I would rather have a two row with wider tubes.

I don't disagree that Champion radiators fit the bill for some, but I have seen too many people have problems to try one. They are very hit and miss, IMO.
 
Cut the top and bottom tanks of my old champion radiator that was in my 440, 67 barracuda.
The cores are tiny. I could barely fit some 0.6 MIG wire through.

This rad was setup with a shroud and twin 1300cfm fans. Still didnt work.
I'm planning on buying a decent core and making a twin pass with some spal fans and another shroud. Maybe 2x low profile pullers and 1 big arse pusher on the front.
Thoughts...

View attachment 1715101354

Radiator isn't the problem at all.

Two 1300 cfm fans, for a possible max flow of 2,600 cfm, is totally inadequate. That's like maybe 2/3 of the airflow you need on the low end. The stock mechanical fans are capable of somewhere north of 4,000 cfm. And are they pushers?

I run a champion 26" 3 core with an OE Ford Contour dual electric fan set up. Those fans are capable of ~3,500 cfm on low speed, and ~5,000 cfm on the high speed. That combination cools my .060" over, 400-ish hp 340 just fine. I use a digital controller, and the high speed has only kicked on a couple times, all when sitting in traffic with ambient temperatures above 105*F.
 
WOW those are some narrow tubes. ran a 3 row cross flow aluminum in my big block dart with a mechanical fan and a couple electric pushers just in case.
never ran over 180. hell the electric fans never came on even.
 
WOW those are some narrow tubes. ran a 3 row cross flow aluminum in my big block dart with a mechanical fan and a couple electric pushers just in case.
never ran over 180. hell the electric fans never came on even.

This doesn't even make any sense. First, it should have run over 180*. So if you were holding it below 180* with the fans you weren't doing you or your engine any favors. Second, running pushers in front of a mechanical fan is a lousy idea. The pushers obstruct airflow through the radiator, which makes the mechanical fan less efficient. It's just silly. If the mechanical fan can't keep up in traffic, increase the CFM of the mechanical fan at low speeds. Don't sabotage it at higher speeds by jamming crap in front of it.

If you need to add electric pushers in front of a mechanical fan, it's because your mechanical fan or cooling system (or both) is undersized. If somehow that works and your car doesn't overheat at speed, it means your cooling system is fine, but your mechanical fan is inadequate. So at that point, you should either drop the mechanical fan, because it's just wasting power, or upgrade it and drop the pushers. Running both is just wasting energy.
 
You don't need a double pass radiator. You don't need 4 cores.

2 cores of 1 inch each will cool well over 800 HP if and this is the big IF, the water pump has the ability to keep up, and you are turning it the right speed.

2 cores of 1.25 inch would be even better.

No reason to ever use a 4 core. You need FLOW.
 
You don't need a double pass radiator. You don't need 4 cores.

2 cores of 1 inch each will cool well over 800 HP if and this is the big IF, the water pump has the ability to keep up, and you are turning it the right speed.

2 cores of 1.25 inch would be even better.

No reason to ever use a 4 core. You need FLOW.

It's not that simple. As Charrlie_S said earlier, it's about surface area. The flow rate of water through the radiator is important as well, but the surface area exposed to the incoming air is the driving component. The surface area and the speed of the air are by far larger parts of the equation, literally.

You want the surface area of the tubes to be maximized. To do that you have to balance the dimensions of the tubes with the number of tubes you can have. Just saying the tubes should be longer only addresses a single component, and that's what is meant when it's said the tubes are 1". The tubes have width and length, and you're only addressing length, first of all. You can have 1" tubes that are as narrow as the top picture. The smaller the width, the more water will be exposed to the surface of the tube, which is good to a point. But as was already mentioned, if the tubes are too narrow it will restrict flow and they'll be prone to plugging up. So it's a balance, you want the most surface area you can get without restricting the flow too much, both new and then later when things develop some corrosion. The extra cores don't help if they're plugged.

Same thing with the number of cores. More rows of tubes=more surface area, which is a good thing. But, the problem is that the air passing through the radiator is warmed and slowed as it goes through. So, the more cores you add, the thicker the radiator gets. As the air goes through it slows and warms more, which makes the additional rows less effective and you lose efficiency.

I tend to agree that a 4 core radiator is too much, they end up being too thick and the length of the cores is usually diminished. The surface area is still higher because of the number of tubes, but the efficiency is lower. And they usually end up being thick enough that they make fan choice a problem. You want to find a good balance between the surface area of the tubes, the amount they can flow, and the size of the fan that you can run. A ton of radiator can be good, but if it compromises the fan CFM then you've gone too far.

I really like the Champion 3 core 26" radiator I run, and it still allows enough room to run a set of dual fans that will flow 3,500 and 5,000 cfm on low/high fan speeds.
 
It's not that simple. As Charrlie_S said earlier, it's about surface area. The flow rate of water through the radiator is important as well, but the surface area exposed to the incoming air is the driving component. The surface area and the speed of the air are by far larger parts of the equation, literally.

You want the surface area of the tubes to be maximized. To do that you have to balance the dimensions of the tubes with the number of tubes you can have. Just saying the tubes should be longer only addresses a single component, and that's what is meant when it's said the tubes are 1". The tubes have width and length, and you're only addressing length, first of all. You can have 1" tubes that are as narrow as the top picture. The smaller the width, the more water will be exposed to the surface of the tube, which is good to a point. But as was already mentioned, if the tubes are too narrow it will restrict flow and they'll be prone to plugging up. So it's a balance, you want the most surface area you can get without restricting the flow too much, both new and then later when things develop some corrosion. The extra cores don't help if they're plugged.

Same thing with the number of cores. More rows of tubes=more surface area, which is a good thing. But, the problem is that the air passing through the radiator is warmed and slowed as it goes through. So, the more cores you add, the thicker the radiator gets. As the air goes through it slows and warms more, which makes the additional rows less effective and you lose efficiency.

I tend to agree that a 4 core radiator is too much, they end up being too thick and the length of the cores is usually diminished. The surface area is still higher because of the number of tubes, but the efficiency is lower. And they usually end up being thick enough that they make fan choice a problem. You want to find a good balance between the surface area of the tubes, the amount they can flow, and the size of the fan that you can run. A ton of radiator can be good, but if it compromises the fan CFM then you've gone too far.

I really like the Champion 3 core 26" radiator I run, and it still allows enough room to run a set of dual fans that will flow 3,500 and 5,000 cfm on low/high fan speeds.


I didn't consider that a 1 inch tube could be as narrow as the ones shown in the picture. I thought about it for a bit, and I can say I don't think I've ever seen tubes that narrow in anything, not even an OEM radiator.

You'd be correct...if the tubes are as narrow in the pictures it really wouldn't matter hob big they are in the other direction.

I going to ASSume the only reason to do that is to get enough tubes in there and keep the width to a certain size.
 
2 row core 1" tubes, and water wetter added to the antifreeze. Dont run electric and engine driven fans. Run one or the other.
 
I didn't consider that a 1 inch tube could be as narrow as the ones shown in the picture. I thought about it for a bit, and I can say I don't think I've ever seen tubes that narrow in anything, not even an OEM radiator.

You'd be correct...if the tubes are as narrow in the pictures it really wouldn't matter hob big they are in the other direction.

I going to ASSume the only reason to do that is to get enough tubes in there and keep the width to a certain size.

Correct. They’re cramming more total surface area by adding more tubes that are narrower. They can only make the radiator so wide. The math will work really well because of the total surface area of all those tubes. But the radiators efficiency in real life may suffer because of the water circulation. If not at first, certainly as the radiator ages.

Same with the length. Manufacturers will use shorter tubes and run more cores. They can only make the radiator so thick and still sell them. But they get to advertise them as a 4 core- the ”well if 3 cores are good 4 must be better!” kind of thinking sells radiators. Well, no, not if the tubes are really thin and short, you have surface area but lose efficiency.

But the same is true for advertising 1” tubes. Is that really better? Have you done the math on water circulation, surface area, efficiency, etc? Two rows of giant tubes won’t necessarily work better either, the tube length being 1” doesn’t mean anything by itself. Longer tubes don’t mean crap if you don’t have enough of them to create enough total surface area. A 3 core with .75” tubes might work better, but unless you test them side by side for thermal efficiency you wouldn’t know.

It’s just advertising, more cores vs larger tubes. Neither one actually tells you which radiator is best for your car.

2 row core 1" tubes, and water wetter added to the antifreeze. Dont run electric and engine driven fans. Run one or the other.

The last bit I agree with, run electric or run mechanical. Running both is inefficient, and usually counterproductive.

But like I said above, just having 1” tubes doesn’t necessarily mean anything either. It’s not that simple, you have to look at the whole thing.
 
Hmm, all makes sense.
I did find this in my stash of goodies.
Looks like mopar part number 46237.
Is this oem for my 383, 67 barracuda?
Funny it's painted nearly identical to my paint code of PP1. There are traces of this color on the floors, however I'd assume the engine would have been Chrysler blue from factory.

DSC_0840.JPG
 
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