Finally pulled the 200-4R

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Mopar to ya

Mopar to ya

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Rock Creek, Minnesota
As a lot of you know, I put a 408 stroker and a 200-4R overdrive in my Dart about 4 years ago. Late last year and all this year I've had intermittent leaking problems. It appeared to be pushing out the vent, usually on hot days. I called the builder, Art Carr (who, by the way, is an f-ing idiot) and he said it was overheating and pushing fluid out the vent, which is what I thought. I asked him why it would run hot and he said I needed a better cooler. I said, that's great, but it's been good for four years. Why is it running hot? He just said I needed a stacked plate cooler and that would fix it. I bought the cooler and it did not fix it. Art just told me I needed to buy his special cooler, which was three times the price of anything else out there. I bought a temp gauge instead and found it was not a temperature issue. It never ran more than 185 degrees. It happened when I manually shifted or really got on the gas. I decided it was a pressure problem. After dealing with a couple local transmission shops that left me wondering how they stay in business, I called a retired friend of mine who apparently still works out of his fully stocked garage. My brother and I pulled the tranny and I took it to him. He suspects porosity in the pump causing higher pressures, and since the vent is in the pump, it spits it out the vent. I also noted the flex plate to converter mounting holes were rounded out as were the converter mounting holes. The converter bolts had come loose a few years ago and I had tightened them but never thought about damage to the mounts. There is an oblong rub mark on the converter that tells me it wasn't true on the flexplate. That can create pump issues and I'm very lucky it didn't damage the crank. So, I'm getting a new front pump and seal, a new flex plate and a new custom built converter from PTC. Hopefully this fixes my problems. While thr tranny is out it's getting a new oil pan gasket and rear main seal as well as all new tie rods, ball joints, idler arms and pitman arms. Should be a new car when I'm done.
Dart at shop.jpg
Dart on hoist.jpg
Dart transmission.jpg
Dart with tranny jack.jpg
Dart with tranny out.jpg
 
Thanks for the info. I'm just starting my 73 Dart Sport restoration and plan on installing a 408 and 2004R in mine. Your previous postings have provided me with a lot of valuable info. Needless to say I will not be going to Art Carr for my pieces, too many negatives about him on this board. Again, thanks for all the great info.
 
I don't remember 200's having a vent in the pump, but only that tube vent on the top of the case.
 
Since this is an adaptation, did you check or is it possible the converter is not true to the crank?

Sorry to hear about your experience with Art Carr. I've never dealt with him, but "thought" he was probably a first class guy in this field
 
You've done an AWESOME JOB on your car. What you write makes no sense?? But.... if you use Lock tite on the torque converter bolts (like I did) when you install the bolts it should keep the bolts from coming loose .. Of course you have to make sure and torque the bolts properly!! I myself hate when everything is working just fine and then all of sudden things change.

treblig
 
I originally talked to Art Carr several years ago about building a 200-4R for my '69 Dart. At the time I wanted a reverse-pattern manual-shift tranny. Not a problem according to Art.
I talked to him again about a year ago after I finally had the money together but now he wouldn't build me what I wanted. He kept telling me nobody had ever been able to get the reverse-pattern manual shift versions to live.
Really? A few years ago it wasn't a problem.
After reading a few threads about the 200-4R here on FABO, I contacted Lonnie at Extreme Automatics (extremeautomatics.com) and he built me exactly what I wanted.
If you're still looking, give Lonnie a call. He'll do you right.

Oh yeah, US Car Tool is building a crossmember specifically for installing a 200-4R in an A-body Mopar.
 
TrailBeast said:
I don't remember 200's having a vent in the pump, but only that tube vent on the top of the case.
Click to expand...

The vent is on top of the case, but it runs inside and into the pump, or so I'm told. Hell, I know how to spell transmission, but that's as far as my expertise goes. All in all the 200-4R has been awesome. The way I drive this car it should break every time I drive it. I race on the street and track, I do long burnouts, I do rolling burnouts. It has held up pretty damn well considering what I do to it. I just want the problem to go away and start driving it again. I've hardly driven it this summer. I broke out the Ramcharger so I could go to car shows. Then I bought a 300C SRT8 so I could feed my need for speed. I expect to get the transmission back tomorrow and the flex plate was at my house for delivery but needed a signature. Maybe I'll be able to drive it this weekend if things go well.
 
Treblig said:
You've done an AWESOME JOB on your car. What you write makes no sense?? But.... if you use Lock tite on the torque converter bolts (like I did) when you install the bolts it should keep the bolts from coming loose .. Of course you have to make sure and torque the bolts properly!! I myself hate when everything is working just fine and then all of sudden things change.

treblig
Click to expand...

When I found them loose, I was doing a burnout and it started banging hard and loud. I found out the next day what it was and used nylon locknuts that held very well. In fact, I had a hard time getting them off when I removed the transmission. What is it I wrote that makes no sense? I don't have a lot of sense, so it could be anything!
 
Mopar to ya said:
When I found them loose, I was doing a burnout and it started banging hard and loud. I found out the next day what it was and used nylon locknuts that held very well. In fact, I had a hard time getting them off when I removed the transmission. What is it I wrote that makes no sense? I don't have a lot of sense, so it could be anything!
Click to expand...


You thought you said that the torque convertor bolts were loose. If you installed them using lock tite they shouldn't ever come loose??

"flex plate to converter mounting holes were rounded out as were the converter mounting holes. The converter bolts had come loose a few years ago and I had tightened them but never thought about damage to the mounts"

Maybe I just misunderstood what you wrote???

treblig
 
So it was blowing fluid out of the vent or coming out of the bell housing when you jumped on it?
 
The car looks great. I had not seen it before. The 200R4 is an awesome upgrade, and I am glad you are getting this problem sorted out. Curious which pump you are using with it? One of Lonnie's? I too can highly recommend Extreme Automatics and Lonnie. Heck, I would have never gotten the hole shot on that Hellcat without the 200R4. I love the Stage 2 unit I got from Lonnie. I increased the stall on my Precision of New Hampton torque converter to 3600rpm, and with the lock-up it's like a 5 speed.

200R4 3 (Large).jpg


JohnRace2 (Large).jpg


Heart (Medium).png
 
The bolts holding the torque converter to the flex plate came loose and rounded out the holes on both the converter and the flex plate.

It was blowing out the vent as far as I could tell. It's squeezed in pretty tight. It appeared to run down the passenger side of the housing, hit the top edge of the pan, run forward and drip steadily off the front right of the pan. If it happened while driving it blew back onto the headers an H pipe and smoked like trailer queen on a Saturday night.
 
UPDATE: So, I left it up to my buddy to decide if he should tear down the tranny or just do the pump that he suspected was the problem. He tore it down after seeing some clutch material in the pan. I was apparently a few stop signs from grenading the damn thing. The band was so close to dropping out he said I would have lost second gear in a few hard shifts. The center support is very bad, allowing the rear splined shaft to move way to much, which I had complained of. It uses an 8 pack of clutches and plates that are all worn out. It needs a bushing kit. Since it is not a lock up converter it uses a non lock up valve in the pump so there is flow. The valve is a one time use, pressed in valve and I need a new one to put in the new pump. The price just skyrocketed, but at least it will be good again. I put 28,000 miles on it in the last 4 years, all of them hard miles. Too many rolling burnouts and neck snapping launches at the track I guess.

Burnout.jpg
 
28,000 miles???? You must be punishing it!!:steering: I guess you can plan on getting the 2004R rebuilt every 25,000 miles or risk blowing it up??

Treblig
 
I don't drive it as much now, but the first summer I put on 11,000 miles. It had overdrive so I could drive on the highway. Between race gas and 93 octane I spent $8000 in gas that summer. My problem is I live 40 miles from anything, so I put on virtually 100 miles anytime I drive it. But ... I never drive it easy. I always manually shift. I always accelerate hard. I race anyone and anything at any time. I'm 40-0 against Mustangs. I do burnouts. I do a lot of rolling burnouts. I race at the track. This poor car has to hate me. My transmission was leaking and I was smoking and I still raced a Corvette and blew him away. I did it again last Friday against another Corvette. I built it to drive, and I drive it hard.
 
LOL, you crazy mister. I like it. Try running a set of 275/60-15 Nitto Drag Radials on the back. The car will still be able to burn them in first, but it will hook up instead of spinning. My cars would be too dangerous to drive on the street without them.
 
When you see how small and fragile the parts inside a 200 look, even with all the hardened hd upgrades, I think it did good to go that long on the street with all the beatings!
 
It's a tough transmission. I know two people with Grand Nationals putting out over 1000 hp and they have no problems. I have seen inside it and other than the 8 clutch pack as opposed to 6 it is like any other transmission. It has a few different springs and a few check valves are removed, It has a bigger servo and a special apply valve in the pump to create flow with the non lock up converter. I didn't build it, and I am not a transmission guy by any means, but I am very mechanical and I have been around builders before. This is a transmission of choice for many because of it's size, gearing, overdrive and reliability. If you beat up any transmission like I do, you have to expect this kind of thing to happen. I'm not happy, but I know I brought it upon myself.
 
Mopar to ya said:
It's a tough transmission. I know two people with Grand Nationals putting out over 1000 hp and they have no problems. I have seen inside it and other than the 8 clutch pack as opposed to 6 it is like any other transmission. It has a few different springs and a few check valves are removed, It has a bigger servo and a special apply valve in the pump to create flow with the non lock up converter. I didn't build it, and I am not a transmission guy by any means, but I am very mechanical and I have been around builders before. This is a transmission of choice for many because of it's size, gearing, overdrive and reliability. If you beat up any transmission like I do, you have to expect this kind of thing to happen. I'm not happy, but I know I brought it upon myself.
Click to expand...

I know its been awhile, but was wondering how the 200 is holding up after the most recent rebuild?
 
Well, we got it back in and it drove great. I wasn't smoking anymore. At the advice of my builder buddy, I ran the vent tube down the side of the transmission like they used to do when they had problems in the 80's. Every time I put it on the hoist it was damp in that area, but no drips and no build up of fluid. I called it good and went to the track with my brother, who had his Warlock on nitrous and wanted to beat me for the first time. I had a new torque converter and reset my timing curves. My previous best was 12.2, and this time I got to the track early, went through tech and let it cool down for an hour. My brother figured he would hit low 12's maybe high 11's. My first run was 12.02. I really wanted to get into the 11's, but the track conditions were horrible and neither of us could hook up. At the end of the last race I got pulled aside and was told my transmission was leaking and I was done until I got it fixed. I've decided to run the vent tube up and attach it to the dipstick tube and see what happens. My brother and I went head to head. I'll attach the video. I was ahead and he was holding his own and he believes beginning to gain on me and he missed a shift. He was not happy. The camera is in his Warlock. 5.7 Hemi, 150 shot nitrous, custom 3" exhaust with X pipe and Viper 6 speed manual tranny. Dyno'd at 520hp at the wheels and 680 ft/lbs of torque. Blew his clutch
Towing home from Rock Falls.jpg
Waiting to race at Rock Falls 2016.jpg
the last race of the day.
 
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