Need Help! Passenger Tire Moves and Rubs Fender. '68 Dart GT

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JT-68-Dart-GT

JT-68-Dart-GT

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I have a 1968 Dart GT. I had the car converted from 14" wheels to 15". All new front components, brakes, arms, etc. I took it to GOODYEAR TIRE for a front end alignment. They shimmed and got the driver side in 100%, however they said they could not get the passenger side in alignment. Funny... they still charged me the same price as if they did... i got home and noticed that you can pull back or go forward with no issue, however if you turn the steering wheel full right, get out and measure the distance between the tire and the fender there is a 4" gap.... no where near rubbing yhe fender. If you back up about 7 or 8 feet the Tire "Moves in toward the fender" that 4" and is now rubbing into the Fender! Pull Forward and the wheel moves back OUT and is again 4" away from the fender.... again having the steering wheel full to the right. If the GOODYEAR Pros at the tire center can't figure it out, can anyone give me an idea of what is going on and who I can take the car to in order to fix it???
 
Sounds like the strut rod isn't secure. Check the nuts at each end. Not sure why they would mess with it unless they were having problems getting he numbers in spec and started loosening and moving stuff.
 
Well, after seeing the title & staring at an image of a bikini girl w/a sponge over the pass. fender..................wait, what's the problem again?????
Ahem!!, OK, exactly WHAT couldn't they get into alignment?? Who set the T-bar height, what is it, and were the LCA pivots left loose until everything was set?
I'll be blunt, most friggin' shops toe & go unless it's so bad they can't get away w/it, time is money. Also, there are no "shims", only B vans etc. use those in the
Mopar world, You've got cam bolts on the upper A-arms. Did these new frt. end parts include adj. strut rods? Could be Ackerman angle issue, "toe walking" the
suspension when the wheels are turned, are the spindles/knuckles new or used?
 
second the strut bar. It ties the front of the LCA to the front of the K member and is supported by rubber bushings. They sound like they are cooked. Any play in that strut and your LCA's are going to move front to back and mess up your LCA bushings in the process.
OEM-k-member-suspension-system-assembled.jpg
 
Where is it getting closer and curther from the fender? At the top, front or back of the tire? Pretty hard to tell the issue without more info. Could be bad lower control arm bushing, upper control arm bushing, strut rod bushing, idler arm, badly worn or broken k frame pivot holes, wheel bearings, upper control arm bolts left loose......almost anything. As was stated there are no shims in an A body front end. Most shops nowadays have no idea how to work on one of these cars......take it to someone whos does or specializes in classics hot rods and or custom cars.
 
"new components" as in plastic bushings? If so the lower arms may have significant movement.
Many owners have used adjustable strut rods to draw the lower arm forward and snug.
 
I have seen this happen when the upper control arm bolts could not put enough squeeze on the frame ears. The new Moog bolts at that time did not have enough threading on them to affect a squeeze. I Torqued the bolt and thought it was tight, but all I had done was run the nut to the bottom of the threads. It put enough squeeze on, on the rack, but the first time I hit the brakes in reverse,backing off the rack, I heard this "clunk". Getting out, I saw that the UCA on one side had slipped and slammed to the front of the opening. It was a do-over for me. After I figured it out, the solution was hardened washers under the bolt head and nut. And yes, I did both sides.This gave ne about 3/16 to 1/4 inch more thread to make a good clamp with.
I was working by the hour, but the alignment rate was fixed to the customer. So; the customer got the benefit, my boss lost an hour, and I got the education. I was able to do the job right,cuz I was not being driven by the clock.
Check your UCA; I bet it's moving. You deserve to get that corrected and a free realignment. You didn't screw up. You shouldn't have to pay for the tech's education.
 
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4spdragtop said:
Sorry I didn't read your.post....just the title got me...."rubs gender" lmao
Click to expand...
LOL - that's what I get for posting at midnight half asleep... thanks for bringing that to my attention. May be why not too many have replied. Can you "edit" and title??? If so, how would I do that if you know? Thanks again.
 
clifftt said:
Sounds like the strut rod isn't secure. Check the nuts at each end. Not sure why they would mess with it unless they were having problems getting he numbers in spec and started loosening and moving stuff.
Click to expand...
ok - I will check that - thanks...
 
Killer6 said:
Well, after seeing the title & staring at an image of a bikini girl w/a sponge over the pass. fender..................wait, what's the problem again?????
Ahem!!, OK, exactly WHAT couldn't they get into alignment?? Who set the T-bar height, what is it, and were the LCA pivots left loose until everything was set?
I'll be blunt, most friggin' shops toe & go unless it's so bad they can't get away w/it, time is money. Also, there are no "shims", only B vans etc. use those in the
Mopar world, You've got cam bolts on the upper A-arms. Did these new frt. end parts include adj. strut rods? Could be Ackerman angle issue, "toe walking" the
suspension when the wheels are turned, are the spindles/knuckles new or used?
Click to expand...

They could not get the passenger side in alignment. They said they got the driver said in spec 100%. And yes... I'm getting some flake on my typo... LOL... but I deserve it... I was on my phone and can't see that well anyway without the ole bifocals... You have hit me with a lot that I know nothing about. But you gave me what I need to go ask "someone that does know" and that is what I am looking for. I am tired of these guys BS'ing me. The only reason that I used the word "Shimmed" is that is what the guy at GOODYEAR TIRE Center told me they did. So if they literally "shimmed" anything and you can't shim a DART, unless the guy at the front desk wasn't just talking out his rear... then maybe that could be part of the issue. I know nothing about Front End Alignments or parts... that's why I hire these 'gear heads' who I hope know what they are doing and in the long run I lose a lot of cash. You would think you could trust Goodyear. I can work on some stuff, but this front end stuff I've just not gotten into. I will get the questions you asked me answered and check it out... thank you for the tips.
 
pishta said:
second the strut bar. It ties the front of the LCA to the front of the K member and is supported by rubber bushings. They sound like they are cooked. Any play in that strut and your LCA's are going to move front to back and mess up your LCA bushings in the process.
View attachment 1715041310
Click to expand...
I just looked at your photo and thank you - that is very helpful. I will check those. I did look under it the other day and took some photos. One of the Rubber (bushings?) on the side of the wheel in question is half gone. It's on there but not sure how it is staying - it's torqued down so I guess there is enough to keep in on there, but it looks like half is ripped in half. Here is a pic. I also included a photo of the tire if you are driving forward as it looks, then if you turn to back up with the tire into the Fender. It moves that much! There is a pic of the new front conversion to the larger 5 lug bolt pattern and brakes (did not post the rear). Would the ripped one have any effect???

Ripped Bushing.jpg


TIRE BEFORE BACKING UP.jpg


TIRE AFTER BACKING UP RUBBING FENDER.jpg


new front end.jpg


20170220_181651.jpg
 
d55dave said:
Where is it getting closer and curther from the fender? At the top, front or back of the tire? Pretty hard to tell the issue without more info. Could be bad lower control arm bushing, upper control arm bushing, strut rod bushing, idler arm, badly worn or broken k frame pivot holes, wheel bearings, upper control arm bolts left loose......almost anything. As was stated there are no shims in an A body front end. Most shops nowadays have no idea how to work on one of these cars......take it to someone whos does or specializes in classics hot rods and or custom cars.
Click to expand...
I posted some pics so you can see the tire issue.
 
RedFish said:
"new components" as in plastic bushings? If so the lower arms may have significant movement.
Many owners have used adjustable strut rods to draw the lower arm forward and snug.
Click to expand...
Hi Redfish - I have no idea. I had a "Hot Rod Shop" install the brakes and larger 5 lug conversion. It was a whole kit... like $1500 in parts. I would need to pull the invoices and see what all they bought and added...
 
AJ/FormS said:
I have seen this happen when the upper control arm bolts could not put enough squeeze on the frame ears. The new Moog bolts at that time did not have enough threading on them to affect a squeeze. I Torqued the bolt and thought it was tight, but all I had done was run the nut to the bottom of the threads. It put enough squeeze on, on the rack, but the first time I hit the brakes in reverse,backing off the rack, I heard this "clunk". Getting out, I saw that the UCA on one side had slipped and slammed to the front of the opening. It was a do-over for me. After I figured it out, the solution was hardened washers under the bolt head and nut. And yes, I did both sides.This gave ne about 3/16 to 1/4 inch more thread to make a good clamp with.
I was working by the hour, but the alignment rate was fixed to the customer. So; the customer got the benefit, my boss lost an hour, and I got the education. I was able to do the job right,cuz I was not being driven by the clock.
Check your UCA; I bet it's moving. You deserve to get that corrected and a free realignment. You didn't screw up. You shouldn't have to pay for the tech's education.
Click to expand...
Great info... I will have that Checked out! Thank you! I added photos also if you want to look at them.
 
JT-68-Dart-GT said:
They could not get the passenger side in alignment. They said they got the driver said in spec 100%. And yes... I'm getting some flake on my typo... LOL... but I deserve it... I was on my phone and can't see that well anyway without the ole bifocals... You have hit me with a lot that I know nothing about. But you gave me what I need to go ask "someone that does know" and that is what I am looking for. I am tired of these guys BS'ing me. The only reason that I used the word "Shimmed" is that is what the guy at GOODYEAR TIRE Center told me they did. So if they literally "shimmed" anything and you can't shim a DART, unless the guy at the front desk wasn't just talking out his rear... then maybe that could be part of the issue. I know nothing about Front End Alignments or parts... that's why I hire these 'gear heads' who I hope know what they are doing and in the long run I lose a lot of cash. You would think you could trust Goodyear. I can work on some stuff, but this front end stuff I've just not gotten into. I will get the questions you asked me answered and check it out... thank you for the tips.
Click to expand...
The "bushing" You're referring to in the pic is a rubber/foam washer to seal the idler pivot, it does not affect operation, only if it lets water get to & eventually damage it.
If you have it can You post the print-out of the alignment? I would be much more able to "see" what might be going on. The spindles look clean, so I assume new units? I
ask because if they are used one could've been tweaked, & it's harder to tell just starin' at 'em than You might think.
 
You have already found out that you took the car to a place that has no idea about Mopars if they used the word "shimmed". Also, with radial tires you do not want to use original alignment specs. The first step in aligning a Mopar is to set the ride height. If that's not right then nothing else will be right.
 
And when you set the ride height, that includes the rear.
If the rear is sky-high, you will never get adequate caster. Unless the front is also sky-high.And then yo get camber issues. And bump steer.
And if the back is not level from side to side, then one T-bar will get cranked for compensation, putting the car in a twist.
In my mind, the only way that tire can move around that far is if the UCA is moving around. Or as mentioned, the strut rod has an issue, which I have never seen.
Jack the car up under the lower control arm as near to the tire as possible.Take off the tire. Rip that UCA back and forth; I'm sure it is loose. The adjuster nut may be tight, but the squeeze on the frame-member is insufficient. I have seen that several times when new bolts are installed.There is just not enough threading on new bolts. If the bolts are originals,then they must be loose.
And if it ain't the upper, then it has to be the lower. There is no other option. If the camber stays about the same, then I would tend to suspect the lower.

Pics of the front end of the strutrod, with the jack under the LCA (not the suspension hanging down),should clear it up pretty quick
 
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There is another way for the tire to move around. Too much toe-in. That will cause the front to pull down when moving forward (changing the alignment) and release when moving backwards. I never would have believed until I saw it.
 
AJ/FormS said:
And when you set the ride height, that includes the rear.
If the rear is sky-high, you will never get adequate caster. Unless the front is also sky-high.And then yo get camber issues. And bump steer.
And if the back is not level from side to side, then one T-bar will get cranked for compensation, putting the car in a twist.
In my mind, the only way that tire can move around that far is if the UCA is moving around. Or as mentioned, the strut rod has an issue, which I have never seen.
Jack the car up under the lower control arm as near to the tire as possible.Take off the tire. Rip that UCA back and forth; I'm sure it is loose. The adjuster nut may be tight, but the squeeze on the frame-member is insufficient. I have seen that several times when new bolts are installed.There is just not enough threading on new bolts. If the bolts are originals,then they must be loose.
And if it ain't the upper, then it has to be the lower. There is no other option. If the camber stays about the same, then I would tend to suspect the lower.

Pics of the front end of the strutrod, with the jack under the LCA (not the suspension hanging down),should clear it up pretty quick
Click to expand...
Thank you... I'll give that a shot!
 
Jim Lusk said:
There is another way for the tire to move around. Too much toe-in. That will cause the front to pull down when moving forward (changing the alignment) and release when moving backwards. I never would have believed until I saw it.
Click to expand...
Yep, see post#4.......lol, I've seen toe jack a car to the limit of it's suspension travel!
 
Yeah, but
Toe will not cause the tire to move back and forth in the wheel house. Chassis up,yes;chassis down,yes ; but tire forwards and backwards from a bit of brakes; I've never seen that

And for the toe to be that far out right immediately after an alighnment, Something else HAD to move.And I would tend to point the finger at the last guy who loosened stuff.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Yeah, but
Toe will not cause the tire to move back and forth in the wheel house. Chassis up,yes;chassis down,yes ; but tire forwards and backwards from a bit of brakes; I've never seen that

And for the toe to be that far out right immediately after an alighnment, Something else HAD to move.And I would tend to point the finger at the last guy who loosened stuff.
Click to expand...

Moving the tire up or down (body down or up) will change the clearances. Also, we've already determined that the shop has no idea what they're doing, so anything is possible.
 
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