No Start, ignition and ammeter problems

-
E

EmersonC

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
116
Reaction score
1
Location
Seattle
First, some background info

66 Dodge dart 273 convert GT
Aftermarket alternator with higher output (60amps?)
Aftermarket Mallory dist.
Aftermarket MSD ignition box
Ignition ballast was removed before I got it

And here is the story...
Siopped to fill up and when I tried to start if there was nothing. No click, no starter, no lights, nothing. The tow truck guy comes and we try to jump it and this does nothing. We hook up his battery to the battery post of the alternator, and vroom she fires right up. I put it into drive and it dies instantly. So we tow it to my house.

I notice the black wire from the starter solonoid to the starter relay has lost its insulation, so I replace it. Nothing. I replace the starter relay, Nothing. It still will fire up if I put 12V to the alternator. I increased the idle and now I can drive it around just fine, as long as I dont turn the engine off. When it runs everything works great except for the ammeter, it does not move.

My next thought is the fusable link, but the wiring is wack and someone made some changes to it. I cant find the fusable link wire that goes from the Batt terminal on the starter relay to the Z on the bulk head connector which should ultimately go to the ammeter. It has been replaced with an afertmarket pink (I think 16 gauge) wire. Tomorrow I will try to find where that goes.

So whats up? Maybe the ignition switch? It did have 12v going to it via the J1 red wire.

Any ideas from the vast knowledge of the a bodies only forum? :prayer:
 
Ok but that this is for sure your problem but I'd check ignition 2 wire they seem to screw up allot same thing happened to me driving down the road it just died everything gone fixed the main power to the bulk head but still wouldn't start found out the ig2 wire wasn't sending anything so i ran my own to the voltage regulator and bang first try it started
 
By hooking to the alternator output, you are "backfeeding" from the alternator, through the bulkhead connector, and to the factory splice in that wire just before it gets to the ammeter.

Suspects are

fuse link

bulkhead connector problems

bad connections at the ammeter

bad ammeter

Read this excellent article which, even if you don't do the bypass they are suggesting, this article gives a good overview of problems with these cars, AND a simplified wiring diagram of the area of concern:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

You can download a complete service manual for free from MyMopar. Only problem is you'll have to "play" with page numbers, because they are not using the Mopar "dash" numbering:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/servicemanuals/1966_Plymouth_Service_Manual.zip

Also from MyMopar are useable wiring diagrams. These are not always correct or complete, but they are sometimes easier to follow than the factory diagrams

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1966/66DartA.jpg

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1966/66DartB.jpg

On diagram "B" above, near the top left, find the starter relay, "dark blue tr" going up to "Z" of the bulkhead connector.

The second connector to the left, RED coming off of "Z" represents the interior half of the connector. Go to diagram A

About the 13th wire down from the top on right side of page is this same RED, and if you follow it you'll see it goes directly to the ammeter

Somehow, you have lost power to this wire, OR the ammeter is bad/ bad connections, and is breaking the circuit.

In the factory manual you can download, the electrical (page 8-1 marked on the page) begins with about page 189 of your viewer

The wiring diagram index, 8-101, is viewer page 289

Your engine bay diagram, 8-118, is viewer page 306

These older diagrams do not have the wire colors encoded into the wire number. You must use the chart on the side of the page.

Find the starter relay, top left of page, and come off the bottom stud angled down and then to the right, you'll see it's labeled "fusible link" and is labled wire "A1B" and goes to "Z" of the bulkhead connector. The chart on the side of the page shows "A1B" is a no16, dark blue with tracer

Also just down from the top and to the right is a diagram of your bulkhead connector, as viewed from the engine side. Check out the connections in there carefully, as this is your NUMBA ONE suspect

For the "rest of the story" (instrument panel diagram) we need 8-114 and 115, viewer page 302

Find the bulkhead connector at about middle left of that page, and Z (A1) goes up to the right and off the page, to be continued on next page down

On page 303, "A1" comes back on the page about 16 conductors from the top of the page. Follow it to the right and you'll see it goes right to the ammeter. If you look at the chart on the right, "A1" is now a no 12 RED.
 
Just bypassed the ammeter and there was still nothing. I took a closer look at the ignition switch wires and there are 6 wires going to it and there is a 7th terminal that is not conected. WTF?

Its about 35F outside at 9:45 so im calling it for tonight.
 
mwls73duster360 said:
found out the ig2 wire wasn't sending anything so i ran my own to the voltage regulator and bang first try it started
Click to expand...

When you say voltage regulator do you mean the ignition ballast?

How did you check the ign2 wire? Was it with the key in and turned all the way? or just the first click?
 
Look, you are not getting power on the battery lead going from the starter relay through the bulkhead to the ammeter, or the ammeter is bad
 
67Dart273 said:
Look, you are not getting power on the battery lead going from the starter relay through the bulkhead to the ammeter, or the ammeter is bad
Click to expand...


I am getting power to the ammeter (didnt check the exact voltage though). So then it sounds like the ammeter is bad. How do I go about checking the ammeter.
 
Should have power in and power out of the amp gauge. I had one go bad on my 77 power wagon years ago. Took the two wires off, connected them together, and insulated the connection and then it worked fine. I added a volt gauge instead of replacing the amp gauge. I'm not recommending it just stating what I did.
 
EmersonC said:
I am getting power to the ammeter (didnt check the exact voltage though). So then it sounds like the ammeter is bad. How do I go about checking the ammeter.
Click to expand...


You may be getting enough power to CHECK it, as in a poor bulkhead connector terminal. A "good" ammeter with "good connections" is just like a piece of wire. It feeds power right on through. Battery power comes TO the ammeter on the red, ALL power taken OFF is from the black wire side.

What happens when you turn the lights on?

Follow the MAD article, and the massive post I made. IN a normal situation, you should have BATTERY power feeding all the way through on this path----

From battery -- starter relay -- fuse link -- bulkhead connector -- to the ammeter (RED), -- through the ammeter -- out the ammeter (BLACK) -- back out the bulkhead on the black wire and to the alternator output stud.

AT THE ammeter black wire, there is a FACTORY WELDED SPLICE (look at the MAD diagram) which is a few inches down in the harness. This branches off and supplies the fuse "hot" buss, the ignition switch, and headlights only power to the headlight switch, and maybe one or two other things.

TURN ON THE HEADLIGHTS. DO they work? YES? Then you have power through that circuit.

If the above is yes, try the KEY. NO power? check the back of the switch for power, it's either the factory splice broke, or a bad connector or bad switch

If you turned on the headlights and NO lights, check AGAIN on BOTH SIDES of the ammeter

Power on one side, not the other? Bad ammeter

NO power either side? Go back to the bulkhead connector and the fuse link.

WIGGLE THINGS. "Jerk" them "lightly." See if things come on/ off

PULL the BULKHEAD CONNECTOR apart and inspect it

READ the MAD article.
 
the generic fusible links do have high impact colored casing like pink or green. Its a high temp silicone casing too so the wire may be burned in two and not seen. Even if so you'll need to find what caused it.
Frayed wires and'or water at the floor mounted dimmer switches and lots of other places to check. Good luck
 
Sweet, thanks for the posts. I jiggled and tightened the alt side of the ammeter and things are working. My only fear is that it may have been somewhere further down the line and when I was behind the dash I knocked it back into position. But ill find out if she dies in me again.
 
Sounds like a problem with the battery or battery terminal since when the tow guy connected to the wire side, it worked. Many auto parts will test your battery in the car and install a new one you buy if a problem. I have never had Autozone mis-lead me and seems like a thorough test with their load tester. When is the last time you removed the terminals and cleaned off corrosion with a wire brush? That should be an annual task in Seattle. Also spray the terminals with anti-corrosion coating.
 
EmersonC said:
Sweet, thanks for the posts. I jiggled and tightened the alt side of the ammeter and things are working. My only fear is that it may have been somewhere further down the line and when I was behind the dash I knocked it back into position. But ill find out if she dies in me again.
Click to expand...

A problem that comes and goes in this manner is a sure sign of bad trouble. What you have in there somewhere is a BAD CONNECTION and it must be in the main battery/ charging lead, the very very thing that the MAD article covers.

I'm starting to think my work here is unheeded. You need to CHECK things. I can understand if it's cold, winter, maybe you don't have a heated garage or even a garage. BUT you need to take steps to make it reliable, OR NOT DRIVE IT, because it WILL leave you stranded again.

I've already told you what the top suspects are:

The bulkhead connector,

The ammeter and it's connections

The "in harness" welded splice

One thing you could do TEMORARILY would be to find a place to run a no12 or no10 wire through the firewall. Put a ring on the interior end, and hook it to the RED side of the ammeter Hook the other end to the big stud on the starter relay. Be sure to unhook the battery ground when you do all this.

Next, run a no12 or no10 direct from the alternator output stud to the big stud on the starter relay.

This will cause your ammeter to be inoperative, but it will relieve strain on the "main" conductors of the bulkhead connector.

You MUST find a way to deal with this. If you don't you'll be freezin' your you - know - what's off at the side of the road some dark night.
 
67Dart273 said:
A problem that comes and goes in this manner is a sure sign of bad trouble.

I'm starting to think my work here is unheeded. You need to CHECK things. I can understand if it's cold, winter, maybe you don't have a heated garage or even a garage. BUT you need to take steps to make it reliable, OR NOT DRIVE IT, because it WILL leave you stranded again.
67Dart273 said:
Since this is my daily driver my first thought is how I was going to get to work, and taht is why i was happy when I managed to get things running. This does not mean I am leaving it at that. I now have this weekend to work on her.
I didnt mean to give the impression I was not listening to your advice. And I am going to check things out this weekend. I probably will do what the MAD article suggests.
Part of me is upset that it started working, because if it was a loose wire it is now very difficult to find it because it is "working" again. When I say "working" it is because connections are still not very good. The ammeter works when it wants and it is hardly chargin the battery now. Not acceptable at all and will work on it. Ill let ya all know how the electrical upgrade goes.

PS No garage of any sorts and its hitting the low 30's again tonight. The things we do for the ones we love!:burnout:
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
As long as your battery is good, you should almost never get stranded for an electrical fault. Just carry a few parts, tools, and knowledge. You can directly apply 12 V to the starter solenoid to turn over the engine (in any gear, be careful). You can wire 12 V directly to the coil to get spark, though you will need a ballast if a factory Mopar ignition or the coil will overheat in ~5 min. Always carry a spare ballast.
 
EmersonC said:
Part of me is upset that it started working, because if it was a loose wire it is now very difficult to find it because it is "working" again. When I say "working" it is because connections are still not very good. The ammeter works when it wants and it is hardly chargin the battery now. Not acceptable at all and will work on it. Ill let ya all know how the electrical upgrade goes.

PS No garage of any sorts and its hitting the low 30's again tonight. The things we do for the ones we love!:burnout:
Click to expand...

There are enough solutions to your situation above to get your '66 back up to snuff. I'm "old school" enough to prefer the ammeter that is in the dash to an ugly voltmeter hanging somewhere. You said the ammeter "works when it wants to". I would carefully check out its connections and not just tighten them (if you can get to them from below). Disconnect the battery negative cable, pull the instrument cluster and inspect the ammeter terminals. They can be loose or corroded, and they may have been tightened too much and the insulation on the terminals can be crushed. Remove the nuts from the terminals, clean the terminals, repair any damage you see, spread a little grease on the parts that contact each other and snug the nuts up firmly. And while you have the cluster out, cleaning the other gauge terminals and the light socket contacts on the pc board is a good idea.

You have my sympathy for working on the daily driver outside when it's 30 degrees. I hope that warms you up a little.

ATB

BC
 
64ragtop said:
You have my sympathy for working on the daily driver outside when it's 30 degrees. I hope that warms you up a little.
Click to expand...

X2. Even though I don't DD my Dart, I have no heated shop, and at 64 and arthritic, I full well know "what it's like." I own the rights to the ORIGINAL T shirt!!!
 
The ALT' gauge can be converted to a VOLTS gauge. A VOLTS gauge is wired differently and cannot disable the entire vehicle. Just something to consider if you pull the instrument panel for repairs.
 
Finished things up today. I did the upgrade outlined in the MAD article. While I was at it I replaced other wires that were worn out. There is a good charge to the battery now and the engine bay looks much cleaner. At some point I may take out the dash and replace/fix the ammeter, but there are other more pressing issues.
 
I know this is a very old thread, but just wanted to say THANKS to all involved. Just purchased a 64 Dart Convertible and have been having similar problems. My first car was a 65 Dart, but that was 35 years ago and the memory is not what it used to be. Spent some time reviewing the thread and all the attached links and documentation and now feel confident to diagnose the specifics of my car. Great detailed documentation!
 
Thanks for pulling it up. I read my earlier posts and thought "WTF did that guy (me) say". I totally missed in post 1 that the OP said the tow truck guy jumpered to the alternator's output stud. I ASSumed he meant the guy jumped to the BAT+ cable connector. 67Dart273 was correct about that jump "back-feeding" the cabin via the ALT wire. Since the BAT wire (from battery+) goes first to the dash ammeter, if the ammeter (or its terminals) is open, the cabin gets no power, at least until the engine is running so that ALT outputs. The ammeter connectors and the bulkhead terminals are a common problem in our cars.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top