Paint questions...

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FISHBREATH

FISHBREATH

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I have sprayed lacquer and a nasty aircraft two-part paint in the past. What is the preferred type of paint these days for repainting cars? Including primer. I have heard of "base and clear", but how does that differ from enamel? What about the newer HVLP guns? Are they any better that the old LVHP guns? I have the latter and am curious about the former. Geeze, so many questions.

I might take a chance on painting the Barracuda myself instead of spending many thousands for a good paint job. I have seen references made to the chain paint shops (MAACO and Earl Scheib), but how good is their paint and prep? I want to paint the car completely, inside and out, and I wonder whether those types of shops could deal with a car in pieces.

I am thinking of a smoked silver color for the car with GTX side stripes.
 
Acrylic Urethane (base/clear) is the most common today. Course, they're going to look a little different than the old factory single-stage enamels.

HVLP is pretty common these days too and offers some advantages to the less experienced painter.
 
"Less experienced painter" is me. I would not mind trying to spray a solid color, but spraying a metallic paint is scaring me. I guess practice and procedure would be the best form to follow.
 
Start with an epoxy primer,then base/ clear, It's not too hard to do. My car was the result of the 1st time I ever sprayed a Kandy Color. The difference Between an enamel and base/ clear is ... With Enamel , you get 1 shot, 1-2 coat application, as you spray it is the way it will dry, Drips n all, I call it referigerator paint. With Basecoat/clearcoat you make 2-3 coats base coat.. 2-3 coats Clearcoat up to say 7 on a show car, wet sanded and re touched with each coat. Pm Me if ya need specific help.
 
My advice is to use the two part epoxy, then if it's a solid color, use a single stage paint. if it is a metallic use base/clear. as far as HVLP guns, i have them ,but i don't use them. It's hard to find spray gun companies that offer non HVLP guns. HVLP guns are the norm now, i guess i'm not normal. anyways, i think my best advice to you would be to paint a couple of other things (with todays materials) to get used to it. It takes a little practice. and as far as MAACO or EARL SCHEIB................ i wouldn't let them paint my bicycle( no offense, just my opinion)
 
Thanks for the info, guys. After reading your posts, I am quite a bit more confident that I can do this. The newer paints had me confused. What type of paint do you use for finding high/low spots with sanding before final epoxy primer? Are there any sanding primers that are incompatible with epoxy primer?

Thanks, again, for your input.
 
Standard lacquer based high solids primers are good for building and filling sanding scratches........a light grey is best, with a little "fog" on top with a black primer......the black dust will get into all the scratches as you work and show you in "technicolor" where you have to block the scratches out...an Old School trick that still works today..........

Base/Clear, even with metallics, is relatively easy to work with and very forgiving........just like the old lacquers. If you want great metallic, and are a beginner, I would use a good LVHP gun such as a DeVilbiss or Sharpe at about 35 pounds or so, and a fairly wide pattern....ask your jobber for the correct nozzle to be sure..........you can clear with an HVLP.......lot's less overspray............

My 2 cents.......Shot LOTS of metallic in the day........and stay back about a foot to foot & a half laying on those metallic coats......do NOT put it on heavy....take it easy.

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
 
Thanks, Pastortom1, great advice. I never knew about the fogging technique and I can see how it would greatly assist is getting a mirror finish. When the time comes for finish body work and paint, I will do the engine compartment and interior first to get my technique back...God, it has been 17 years since I did any painting, but I can't wait to get to it.
 
Egads!!!!! Unless you like shrink back and sanding scratches and delamination, don't use a lacquer primer under a urethane paint. Look for a "2K" primer. Starting from bare metal, you can put an epoxy primer down, then body filler where necessary, then a 2K primer, sand, 2k primer, sand, etc....... they make guide coat that you can put on, or just use a can of black Krylon, sparingly or it will clog your sand paper, finish off with at least 320 if not 400, you can apply a coat of transparent sealer for adhesion promotion, then if single stage, shoot it, or if base/clear, shoot base until complete hiding is achieved, depending on the color this can be 3 coats or some of the PITA colors I've seen can be up to 7 or 8, then shoot 2-3 coats of high solids clear. I wouldn't ever put 7 coats of clear on, one rock chip and half of your hood is going to fall off from sheer weight. If you feel like Jimmy Buffet you can color sand out your dust nibs and put the high shine on it with a buffer, waffle pad, and some compound. Be prepared to sling compound everywhere.

Although I'm out of the business now, still do it as a hobby, I was a PPG, Diamont/Glasurit, and Martin Senour certified refinish tech. Hear me now and believe me later, when it comes to paint materials, you get what you pay for. I love Glasurit, but man is it expensive these days.
 
Rednesss,

Thanks for the info. Does plastic filler hold well to primer? Or, do you have to sand to clean metal where you need to fill? Do you need to use any type of metal-prep solution on bare metal before priming?

My greatest concern is that, where I live, bare metal will start rusting almost over night. I like the idea of getting down to bare metal where I need to weld, finish that area, and then prime over it ASAP. Because it will be only me doing the work, I will have to prime the car in sections as work proceeds. I know it is a lot of work, but there is only one way to get a quality do-it-yourself paint job.

Thanks, all of this information is going into the good old coconut memory bank.
 
The epoxy primer is a direct to metal product. You can bondo over it without going back to bare metal. I scuff it up, but it doesn't sand very well unless it has been on for awhile. I agree with the 2k sand etc. but if you are going with a lighter metallic color,silver, blue gold.... finish with at least 600 wet.I agree with alleyoop and red that you get what you pay for with the products.If money is an issue I would use the better quality basecoat, and use a mid tier clear. 3-4 coats of clear max.
I work in a PPG store so you know what I would suggest. We have a real nice mid-tier clear jc630, that air dries quickly and buffs like a dream..
My 2cts

Bob
 
I like to see body filler over the epoxy primer. I don't know how many times I've removed someone else's body filler from way back, and under it is a rust patch, body filler has been known to suck up moisture out of the air. Regardless you will end up with some bare metal spots once you start blocking. I like to use a 2k epoxy hybrid primer, best of both worlds, direct to metal epoxy characteristics and good sandability. Most 2k primers are not supposed to go directly onto bare metal so yes you should use some type of acid etch primer, but I would stick with the epoxy. Bob is right, however you can cheat a little with a transparent sealer between your primer and basecoat stages.
 
Bob- and Red-,

Thanks for the info, much appreciated. I blink my eyes (20+ years) and the whole technology changes.

I noticed references to 2k; what does that mean?

Thank you, again.
 
If you or anyone else in this forum is going to tackle a project, I strongly suggest you visit the following forum: http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/

I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned as a result of being a member there. It's the only other forum besides FABO (of course) that I routinely visit on a daily basis.

Good luck on your project! :thumleft:
 
As a footnote on lacquer based high solids primers, they've been used for decades with great results under urethanes, beginning back in the days of the first patents awarded to DuPont. Shrinkback and sand scratches in lacquers were not merely due to the base chemicals.........they had more to do with improper surfacing and curing times. The high solids have a definitive place in restoration and repair, if used properly and allowed their correct cure times.

The new 2K's are great, and have less tendency to shrinkage, and are very aggressively adhesive........but like some of their sticky cousins, they can be hell on sandpaper and your overall patience if you don't know what you're doing........they have to dry properly......you can't hurry the stuff much more than with old enamels.......more laborious to block also......

That previous advice about bondo over bare metal is right as rain ...........the stuff does NOT act as a sealer, and lets moisture through........old school tech taught us to put it right over the bare black steel........later, that same steel rusted, and the body work bubbled..........bondo is much better THIN, and OVER your epoxies or etching primers (which have been properly roughed).........even some shop teachers are still telling kids to pile it on the bare metal..........it will generally lead to misery down the road.

I know the tech of the modern paints can be confusing, BUT if you had experience 17 years ago, all you'll need is a solid week or so of study to catch up on what you need to know........then you'll be back on the horse.......paint that car yourself.........I guarantee the finished job will "shine" more due to your own sense of satisfaction. If you screw up the base, just shoot it over.....it's very forgiving......and the clears can be sanded and buffed just like lacquer........no worries there either.........follow directions, and you'll be fine. 8)
 
Fish,

2K is a 2 component product. The new urethane products "dry" chemically, one is the primer or clear and the 2nd is an activator or hardener. Just like the bondo will not harden without adding the hardener. This makes it less likely to shrink after curing. Lacquer and emanels dry by evaporation of the solvents used to thin them.
Another option is to use a spray polyester primer like Evercoats "Slick Sand" over the entire car/panel, even bare metal."Feather-fill" was a similar product years ago, still available today.. This can also be used over the epoxy and bondo to give you an excellent base for blocking the car arrow straight. A gallon is priced alot less than most 2K primer surfacers even mid=tier brands....I would still recommend a sealer over all your work before applying ANY color..

Bob
 
Man, I gotta say that all you guys are great. I have learned more about modern painting from these posts here than I have in the past 30 years. I will have to upgrade to a gravity feed gun as my old ones are siphon. Thank you, thank, you, thank you to all.
 
A good demonstration of a products propensity to "shrink" is to leave an inch or so in the bottom of a pint mixing cup. Let it cure, and then look at the size of the hockey puck left compared to the size of the container. Do this with lacquer and a high quality urethane 2k primer and you will see that the the term "lacquer high solids primer" combines two mutually exclusive terms, high solids and lacquer. I can guarantee you that you won't be spraying a lacquer primer out of my Sata with a 1.7mm tip like I do the HS 2K urethane unless you spray like the Roadrunner or like directional gravity flow indicators also known as runs which demonstrates the differences in viscosity and thus the "solids" content differences between the two.

I'm not saying that lacquers don't have their niche. I for one don't like paying to spray reducers that evaporate and don't give me any mils for my buck. 2k primers ten years ago, some of them were bears to sand. They liked to clog your paper and generally make your life miserable. They've greatly improved their formulas these days and most of them sand like butter just like the old school lacquers.

Speaking of guns, if money is no object, I highly recommend SATA guns, they are considered the "Cadillacs" of the painting industry. Iwata's are very nice too. Get a primer gun, and a finish gun. And clean them religiously after every use, at $500+ for a NR3000 you want it to last. The HVLP's do need a hefty air supply, so if you have a dinky air compressor, be prepared to replace it with a higher CFM model. Get a good oil/water trap.

Once you see the bill for materials and equipment, you'll know why a quality paint job will run you $5/6/7+ thousand and up depending upon how beat up your panels are. Good luck.
 
Thanks, Rednesss,

Great info on the spray guns. I will eventually be doing more than one car, so the cost of new guns will ameliorate with time. Next, I will locate a good autobody supply store.

Thanks
 
quite impressed myself.. i guess u ol' farts still remember how to paint a car lol.. jk jk:toothy10:
 
I almost forgot, but another tip that might save you a little $$$$$, is if you get a good tintable sealer that is close in color to your topcoat, you can cut down on the amount of basecoat you will need to achieve complete coverage. Also when you get that inevitable rock chip, they don't contrast as much as say a black car with gray primer underneath. I'm not a huge fan of tintable primer, I find that some of the toners adversely affects the sandability of the primer and clog your paper a little more, unless you're wet sanding. But then wet sanding just creates a huge mess.
 
challengergary said:
Great advice guys. As someone who has painted quite a few cars, this was good information that was very well explained.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. I will copy the posts and print them for my ever-expanding notebook. Thanks all.
 
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