Will new torsion bars correct that POS, bucket-o-bolts feel I have?

[cudaracer]

Thanks.

Car is stock height.
Visual inspections are good, since I did the work myself, I know what to look for. Nothing obvious anyway.
KYB's being suspect sounds odd to me. If I swap them out, should I swap them back once I get 1" T-Bars.
I would like to have it re-aligned once I put in TBars. What do I tell them?

 

[toolmanmike]

Hey huys, which bushings do you replace and then tighten them up with weight on the car? I didn't and I have some clunking and banging when I pull in and back out of the driveway (while turning of course) Mine sounds like it is falling apart also. I think the guy that did mine took the torsion bars out and either swapped them side to side and/ or put them in backwards. New bars might not make a difference but it might. tmm

 

[sireland67]

Alignment sounds like the main issue.
You said the steering box was loose, how much play did it have?

A loose box, I am talking when you hold the pitman arm tight, you should feel NO play if you feel any, it will wander, jump all over the road etc.

Steer and gear in Ohio sells excellent rebuilt units that are reasonable priced.

Also check the steering box mounting bolts to the K member, sometimes they come loose and cause the issues you are having.

 

[sireland67]

Also look at the lower steering column bearing, if it is riding the side of the column, it needs rebuilt.
Every E-body I have ever had the lower bearing is shot.

 

[Robbie2734]

Hey huys, which bushings do you replace and then tighten them up with weight on the car? I didn't and I have some clunking and banging when I pull in and back out of the driveway (while turning of course) Mine sounds like it is falling apart also. I think the guy that did mine took the torsion bars out and either swapped them side to side and/ or put them in backwards. New bars might not make a difference but it might. tmm

The lower control arm pins are tightened with the weight on the front wheels. The ride height should be set first. The lower control arm strut bushings too. I believe it's 145# for the pins and 40#? for the struts. I re torqued mine after a couple of weeks. I bet your steering box is a little loose. The torsion bars are easy to check, look for the numbers (892/893 in my case) on the rear of the bars. If I remember, the 893 or odd number is on the right. Maybe somebody can verify that.

 

[72bluNblu]

Thanks.

Car is stock height.
Visual inspections are good, since I did the work myself, I know what to look for. Nothing obvious anyway.
KYB's being suspect sounds odd to me. If I swap them out, should I swap them back once I get 1" T-Bars.
I would like to have it re-aligned once I put in TBars. What do I tell them?

KYB's are notoriously stiff. Coupled with really soft, tired torsion bars you have a total mismatch between wheel rate and shock rate. It might not be your problem, but it isn't helping. I wouldn't swap them back in regardless, unless you enjoy a really harsh ride quality. Also, take a look and see if you can see any marks to indicate that your lower control arm bumpers are hitting the frame (shiny spot). Even at stock ride height, the stock torsion bars can bottom out, especially if they're worn out.

As for the alignment, just tell "them" that you want -.5* camber, +3* caster, and between 1/8" and 1/16" toe in. "They" will probably have no idea how to set that toe setting though, so you'll probably have to tell them .07* to .14* toe in for each side, or about .14* to .28* total toe in.

Unfortunately, most chain wheel shops will not set a custom alignment. You can kinda cheat, if "they" let you, and tell them to plug in a 2009 Mustang. That setting will call for -.75* camber, +7.1* caster, and .10 to .20 degrees toe in. Of course, "they" won't be able to get that much caster, but you can just tell them to get as close as they can as long as its equal. Sometimes that works better than trying to get them to do a custom spec.

I typically just rough in the alignment myself, then have it checked at the local shop. Usually I'm close enough that they'll tweak it for me to even things up without charging me for a full alignment. But I start off by saying that not one single part of my suspension is stock, and that setting the stock factory alignment would probably kill me. It helps that I have 17 or 18" rims on my cars with 275 or bigger tires and all kinds of tubular and adjustable components.

 

[6pk2goDemon]

If I remember, the 893 or odd number is on the right. Maybe somebody can verify that.

Just the opposite & I know it's hard to remember sometimes...

Odd # is on the left

 

[C130 Chief]

You have 245 section 14" BFG's? On what rims? If your rims are too narrow for your tires, you can get get some squirrely handling.

 

[jerry6]

The "white shocks with the red label would be KYB's, and they could be a big part of your problem. KYB's ride very stiff. They're a little better matched to larger torsion bars, but they still ride really stiff. My Challenger has 1.12" bars, and used to have KYB's. I figured out how stiff they rode when I installed 1.12" bars in my Duster (which are stiffer) and a set of Bilstein RCD's. Despite the higher wheel rate, my Duster was MUCH more comfortable and planted than my Challenger. That's when I swapped out the KYB's in my Challenger. Night and day difference. Much more comfortable, much better planted.

Shocks have to be matched to your springs (torsion bars). If the damping rate of the shocks doesn't match the reaction rate of your springs, you get what you're experiencing. I would also really recommend finding out what your alignment is actually set at.

With regard to the strut rod bushings, you're better off with aftermarket adjustable strut rods. The factory strut rods are a "one size fits all" solution, and we all know that really means "one size doesn't fit anyone really well". Same with the strut rods. Better to have adjustables that you can set to the length your car actually needs, which probably isn't the same as the factory length regardless of the type of bushing. If you're using poly LCA bushings this is especially true.

As far as the frame stiffeners go, do the subframe connectors (front to rear between the subframes) before the forward braces. The subframe connectors are a HUGE help. The forward braces help a lot too, but you'll need the subframe connectors in place to really benefit from the forward braces. Making the front end really stiff while its still connected to a "soft" uni-body middle is not the best idea.

I have both on my Duster, and WOW, what a difference.

Subframe connectors...





Forward braces "J-bars"

What brand frame connectors are you using ? I like how they are built compared to the ones I have , look a lot stronger , mine are open on top , not boxed .

 

[72bluNblu]

What brand frame connectors are you using ? I like how they are built compared to the ones I have , look a lot stronger , mine are open on top , not boxed .

Brand? Um, mine I guess.

I built them myself using 1.5" x 3", .120" wall tube. I sectioned the tubing in the back and used 1/8" plate to extend the connectors up to cover the frame rails all the way back to the spring mounts. I also boxed the end of the tube where I sectioned it. I then used some 1/8" thick angle to make the front landing plates. In the rear they're further reinforced by the torque boxes overlapping them.

I used 1.5 x 3" tube so I wouldn't have to cut the rear floor pan. The 1.5" tube sits nicely against the floor. So nicely that I could weld them to the rear floor pan if I wanted to. Maybe one of these days when I've got the carpet out for something else.

The car feels very solid, no squeaks or creaks. Door gaps are all maintained when jacking the car up or sitting on jackstands.

 

[nm9stheham]

Thanks all.
More info however, so after the complete front end rebuild, including pitman and idler with bearings, and a slight tightening adjustment to the power steering unit which suffers from what I would call mild slop.....I had it professionally aligned. She steers straight and true. New shocks too. Mild bumps don't upset it bad, but when it seems to go bonkers is as you are slowing down for a turn at an intersection where the roads are often not smooth. The combination of mild braking, turning and bumps throws it into a tizzy.

What can I expect with new stiffer torsion bars.

Mmmmm.. just thinking about this from the opposite end of the car... the best I can make of the car's description and the symptoms above is that your car's rear springs are far too stiff for the shocks, making the rear suspension is seriously underdamped. That would cause the rear to bounce and jump around a lot, which may equate to what you call 'a tizzy'. If you have stiffer rear springs and just stock type shocks, then this underdamped rear springing will be the case. Using oddly mismatched up and down shock rates could cause issues on the road too.

And a high rear ride height will just add to that problem. A high rear ride height will take weight off of the rear, and this will become even worse under braking, and the rear will be light in corners and bounce around even more easily; the underdamped suspension will exaggerate that even more. High, stiff rears springs with soft shocks are about the worst you can do to cause these sysmtoms under the condtions you describe: braking into rough corners.

It would be useful to know what shocks you have in the rear. It would also be useful to see pix of the rear springs to see if there are any clamps or extra bolts that are making then non-linear. If you can ID the brand/model of the rear springs with a link, that would be good too.

Stiffening the t-bars will not do anything to cure an underdamped rear suspension. You need to either put the softer springs back into the rear and try that, or upgrade your rear shocks. With the stiifer rear springs, I would move to Bilstein's not KYB's.

In general these live axle, leaf sprung rear suspensions are decent for straight line racing, but suffer a lot when put into turns, especially rough ones. The springs when clamped can become non-linear and so become hard to match the shock rates. And the rear roll centers tend to be high, and get worse with a higher rear stance.

Do you drag race this car? Or do you want this car to be it's best in cornering? These 2 uses are fairly opposed to each other when it comes to rear suspension parts and set-up.

 

[toolmanmike]

The lower control arm pins are tightened with the weight on the front wheels. The ride height should be set first. The lower control arm strut bushings too. I believe it's 145# for the pins and 40#? for the struts. I re torqued mine after a couple of weeks. I bet your steering box is a little loose. The torsion bars are easy to check, look for the numbers (892/893 in my case) on the rear of the bars. If I remember, the 893 or odd number is on the right. Maybe somebody can verify that.

Thanks for that. Everything was tightened on the hoist with the suspension unloaded and I know the torsion bars were out and on the floor. Whether they got put back where they belong I won't know until I check. (Maybe this weekend I'll get a chance) Neither the alignment guy or I had ever rebuilt a Mopar front end before. A scary thought I know. Just a note, I have adjusted the steering box and rebuilt the coupler. It steers great and is real good at highway speeds, just noisy when turning and going over bumps. especially when backing up. tmm

 

[nm9stheham]

Thanks for that. Everything was tightened on the hoist with the suspension unloaded and I know the torsion bars were out and on the floor. Whether they got put back where they belong I won't know until I check. (Maybe this weekend I'll get a chance) Neither the alignment guy or I had ever rebuilt a Mopar front end before. A scary thought I know. Just a note, I have adjusted the steering box and rebuilt the coupler. It steers great and is real good at highway speeds, just noisy when turning and going over bumps. especially when backing up. tmm

Sorry for this news: If the LCA pivots were torqued down with the suspension at full drrop, there is a good chance that the LCA bushing rubber is now torn.

 

[ir3333]

yes,upper control arms,torsion bar pivots/bushings...even the shackles must be tightened with the suspension loaded

 

[abodyjoe]

Everything was tightened on the hoist with the suspension unloaded

at least with rubber lower control arm bushings the lower arms should be tightened with the weight of the car on the front end.

did you guys at least use a service manual when ya did the front end??

 

[340_dart_power]

the "white shocks with the red label would be kyb's, and they could be a big part of your problem. Kyb's ride very stiff. They're a little better matched to larger torsion bars, but they still ride really stiff. My challenger has 1.12" bars, and used to have kyb's. I figured out how stiff they rode when i installed 1.12" bars in my duster (which are stiffer) and a set of bilstein rcd's. Despite the higher wheel rate, my duster was much more comfortable and planted than my challenger. That's when i swapped out the kyb's in my challenger. Night and day difference. Much more comfortable, much better planted.

Shocks have to be matched to your springs (torsion bars). If the damping rate of the shocks doesn't match the reaction rate of your springs, you get what you're experiencing. I would also really recommend finding out what your alignment is actually set at.

With regard to the strut rod bushings, you're better off with aftermarket adjustable strut rods. The factory strut rods are a "one size fits all" solution, and we all know that really means "one size doesn't fit anyone really well". Same with the strut rods. Better to have adjustables that you can set to the length your car actually needs, which probably isn't the same as the factory length regardless of the type of bushing. If you're using poly lca bushings this is especially true.

As far as the frame stiffeners go, do the subframe connectors (front to rear between the subframes) before the forward braces. The subframe connectors are a huge help. The forward braces help a lot too, but you'll need the subframe connectors in place to really benefit from the forward braces. Making the front end really stiff while its still connected to a "soft" uni-body middle is not the best idea.

I have both on my duster, and wow, what a difference.

Subframe connectors...

forward braces "j-bars"

x2....

 

[BigBlockMopar]

I upgraded my bone stock '73 Dart with the following items which made it pretty much handle like a modern car;

- Hellwig front swaybar
- 1" Torsion bars (Want thicker bars now)
- Modern tire alignment with more caster with help of MOOG offset bushings.
- Borgeson powersteering box
- Reinforced steeringbox mount
- Welded in homemade subframe connectors (made the car quieter and feel more solid)
- 17" Aluminium wheels with 50-height tires.

My Dart also had slider type calipers which made clunky rattle noises like something was about to fall off the car at times.
After the upgrade to pin-type calipers this went away completely.

Personally, I would start by loosing your 14" wheels and too-wide tires and go at least to 15" aluminum wheels with a better brand tire. This will smooth out your ride.
Install welded subframe connectors. This also will remove some of the body rattles.
Lower the car about 2" and upgrade the torsion bars AT least a 1" bar.
For my dailydriven Dart I would like to go to 1.06" or 1.12".