Summer Water Temp Baseline?

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For Famous Bob;
My engine doesn't care about ambient or idling or hood open/closed, or traffic or running at 100mph for an hour or three, or ram air, or any of that stuff. It runs 205 at the stat house with an IR gun , no more and no less.

Here's what works on my little 367.
-aluminum heads,
- I pilfered the rad and the shroud from a 1973 Swinger 318 with A/C. The dang thing is over 41 years old. It's a 26", and I think a 2-row.
-Milodon Hi-flo pump which is just a regular pump with an anti-cavitation plate welded on and 7 or 8 vanes I can't recall which,,and I believe it has a 5/8 shaft.
-Milodon Hi-flo 195 stat
-Seven-blade factory all-steel A/C clutch-fan with the funky anti-vortex tips and a fairly high attack angle on the blades, also from the Dart
-a fan clutch from an early 200X Ford pick-up. This is a key part.
-I rev mine to 7000/7200 so I'm running an underdrive pulley set.
-TTI headers with dual 3" full length mandrel bent pipes
-Airgap
- Fresh cold above-the-hood air, another big-deal
- .0030 to .0032 skirt clearance on the KB 107s
- a 7psi cap, and a recirculating overflow tank (also from the 73 Dart).
- I installed a restrictor in the bypass hose, and in summer, I block the hose that normally delivers hot water to the heater.
- I used to run 100%water, but got tired of draining it every fall, so somewhere along the line, I went to 50/50, No change in running temperature,after everything else was dialed in.
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>On the shakedown run, I discovered that a direct drive flex-fan was chit. Same for the small diameter factory 6 blade steel fan, and the Mopar Performance 5-blade or 7-blade-low-attack viscous clutch fans, IMO all crap, by themselves.
> During the first roadtrip with an inferior cooling system,on a very hot day,lol, I discovered that the engine was running pretty warm, and every time I shut her off, I had to wait a half hour to restart cuz the pistons would lock-up in the bores. The machine shop had initially set the skirt clearance to .0025, on the KB-107s. When I got home, I took it all apart and had them put more clearance in, and that solved that.
> The Milodon wate pump was instant relief.
> the aluminum heads and TTIs were cooking everything in sight including the 750DP and fuel line. A hole in the hood was instant relief. I put an oval filter box on top of the hood,between the louvers (68Barracuda) and sealed the carb to the underside. I installed a large canister EFI,steel fuel-filter at the back on the suction side, and plumbed a one piece all-steel line from the pump to the dual-feed.
> I ventilated the hood to let the heat out when parked.
>the 7psi cap just lets all the rubber parts last forever, and makes life easy on the rad and heater core. Only the heater hoses and bypass were new in 1999. The rad hoses are more ancient. And yes the lower hose has the anti-collapse spring inside it.
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The engine is a 4.04x3.58, 367 cuber at 10.9Scr (was 11.3 with the first cam, the 292/108). KB 107s out of the hole about .005. Quench set to .034, a Hughes 230* cam with 1.6 adjustable arms, the aforementioned AG and 750DP, Milodon RoadRace pan with HV oilpump, Manual trans, currently running 3.55s and smoking up the 325s, and OOTB Eddies now painted Orange. She went 93 in the 1/8th at 3467#; So; not 800hp, not 600, not 500; perhaps a tic over 400hp.
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a lot of the changes were made together, so I can't separate out items that may not have contributed.
The following items, I can say , really helped;
the Milodon pump,fresh cold air,and the 7 blade T-clutch set-up.
The pistons , IMO, might have been Ok at .0025 as originally installed, if I had made all the other changes first. They do rattle at start-up for a half a minute or so.
Since my coolant runs rock-solid at 205, I do not need more than the 7psi cap.

I abuse the chit out of this combo. The temp needle never moves after stabilizing warm.The only time I ever look at the gauge now is right after a 7200 rpm blast, to make sure the belt is still on. Speaking of which, I run that V-belt as loose as possible without it squealing. I think it was new in 2004.

This is what has worked for me. Your results may vary

Sounds like u have a handle on it. But I`m sure my engine makes a hell of a lot more heat than urs. I do have the 1200 cfm throttle body sealed to the hood, always have. I do have (roughly) two 2 1/2" x 12" vents along side the 6 pack scoop. I definitely don`t have room for any clutch type fan. I doubt if it would be any better than a mech fan anyway in my case. For the 17" fan to even work, I had to build the shroud up about 2" on top and close it in to pull air w/o a loss. I cant run a bigger fan, just no room anywhere . I could cut the rad. opening out to include the side tanks on the crossflow rad., I didn`t want to because of what the car is. I can`t see that really making much diff. tho , but a little is all I need. I also could move the rad. forward by hacking the cradle up I guess, and that would give a little more room , where I might could run a bigger diameter fan. THANKS for the insight , but most of it just don`t fit my case. I think I`ll drain it down and cut the cradle out to let the side tanks have air next. ???
Front booster fan, relay, horn, and stuff in the way= pain in the --------LOL
I am wondering what effect a 15 pound cap would have in place of the super stout 16 pound that came w/ the radiator .When I saw how tite the upper hose was , it scared me a little !
 
Oh, so, now you share that your 1968 /6 is in a 60-62 A-body? Might have been useful information before don't you think? Not that it matters. You still need to maintain the same engine temperatures, and you still don't necessarily need a $450 custom radiator. If you think that's the only solution, spend your money, doesn't hurt my feelings.

The whole thing is kinda interesting, because your car isn't running hot based on the information you've posted. You have an inaccurate aftermarket temp gauge and a poorly located sending unit, but that's about it. And now you think you need a new radiator for some reason? Not with a temp of 185*F with it idling in the driveway on a hot day you don't.

As far as the rest of it, 19" radiators were used for /6's in A-body's all the way up through 1974. Probably longer, I just don't have the part numbers handy. You can see all the sizes offered here
MyMopar.com - Radiator Specifications

Maybe you didn't know that on the later cars at least, a 22" radiator will bolt right in place of the 19" radiators. Same mounts and everything, straight bolt in. Now, it may not be quite that easy for the 60-62's, but if I can figure out how to put a 26" radiator behind a 22" radiator support you should be able to figure out how to install a 22" radiator in a 19" support. Both are 2 core radiators, the 22" will of course have more surface area, which means better cooling. There's more than enough room to mount the 22" radiator in that radiator support.

The pulley to radiator spacing is tight, but it's not the worst I've seen. You can still use a shroud. Maybe not a factory one, but even a fan shroud that would fit in there would improve your radiators efficiency. You're also still using a factory fan. There are mechanical fans out there that move more air than the factory design. But again, based on the information you've provided so far, you don't need one. Just a better aftermarket temp gauge and sender.

Good info.

And I posted in the first post and multiple times that a shroud is getting fabbed and is my next step. (and I hope it provides an improved margin)

My initial question, though, was simply "What are the maximum allowable temps measured at the radiator intake and outtake necks at idle, in gear, A/C on?"

In other words in any stock Slant what's the highest acceptable engine temperature before bad things start happening?
 
Good info.

And I posted in the first post and multiple times that a shroud is getting fabbed and is my next step. (and I hope it provides an improved margin)

My initial question, though, was simply "What are the maximum allowable temps measured at the radiator intake and outtake necks at idle, in gear, A/C on?"

In other words in any stock Slant what's the highest acceptable engine temperature before bad things start happening?
Wasn't that covered? 230°
This ain't nothing... You got to read the thread what the guy with the $1,200 radiator and all the custom work he's had to do to it to make it fit an extra parts just had to buy to make it work LOL and still the same temperature as you're seeing LOL
My first question in these situations just to make sure, were you or any previous owner a fan of a product called "stop leak"?
 
Sounds like u have a handle on it. But I`m sure my engine makes a hell of a lot more heat than urs. I do have the 1200 cfm throttle body sealed to the hood, always have. I do have (roughly) two 2 1/2" x 12" vents along side the 6 pack scoop. I definitely don`t have room for any clutch type fan. I doubt if it would be any better than a mech fan anyway in my case. For the 17" fan to even work, I had to build the shroud up about 2" on top and close it in to pull air w/o a loss. I cant run a bigger fan, just no room anywhere . I could cut the rad. opening out to include the side tanks on the crossflow rad., I didn`t want to because of what the car is. I can`t see that really making much diff. tho , but a little is all I need. I also could move the rad. forward by hacking the cradle up I guess, and that would give a little more room , where I might could run a bigger diameter fan. THANKS for the insight , but most of it just don`t fit my case. I think I`ll drain it down and cut the cradle out to let the side tanks have air next. ???
Front booster fan, relay, horn, and stuff in the way= pain in the --------LOL
I am wondering what effect a 15 pound cap would have in place of the super stout 16 pound that came w/ the radiator .When I saw how tite the upper hose was , it scared me a little !
Bob
When you are running down the road at 65 mph, this requires about 50 hp. It does not matter if you have 300 500 or 800 hp, it only takes 50 or so. And that 50hp requires a certain amount of fuel, in direct relationship to the power output. So all engines, in 3500# bricks like mine,require about the same cooling system capacity to cruise at 65 mph. If you are having trouble under these conditions,logic says that your solutions will be the same as mine were.
I'm pretty sure you know this, so I'm probably preaching to the choir.
I also understand that your bigger engine will be creating more heat strictly due to it's size.
But here's the thing; My cooling system is adequate to cruise at 120 all day long in the hottest parts of a Minnesota/South Dakota day. We know that when we double the speed it takes over 4 times the power, so let's just say 120 requires 180hp. I know that my cooling system is up to that task.
And since it went 93 in the 1/8th, without budging the needle, I also know that she is good to a tic over 400hp for 7 or 8 seconds, atta time.
I presented my solutions for your perusal. I'm not saying that my way is the only way or the best way, but it sure as chit was the cheapest and the most reliable for my power level, and for my useage.
Feel free to copy it, or not.
Again, if I'm going over old ground, my apologies.

>As to the side tanks receiving air, I agree with you; the water just doesn't spend a lot of time in the tanks,and that portion of water that passes right next to the tank skin,they say,is slow moving,sticking to the skin, in the same manner as fuel sticks to the runner walls on a cold engine. My conventional tanks are shrouded too.
>I empathize with your no-room-for-a fan-clutch, and so, I have seen that 7-blade hi-attack fan with the funky curled tips, as a direct-drive as well. And with the amount of money you likely have in that monster engine, I'm guessing reliability is a key point for you.
>If I had your problem, Ima thinking I would at least try a direct-drive monster fan on there like that, and either move the rad forward or try a thinner one.
>At idle, the major difference between our engines, in terms of heat production, is internal friction, and ring-seal, and ignition timing. So FYI, I offer this; I used Plasma-moly file-fit conventional 4.04 rings, and the Blowby at the time of install was almost immeasurable. Eventually it settled in at about 2%. I use Hughes 1110 (IIRC) springs shimmed "a little" to control the OEM valves in my OOTB Eddies, to at least 7200 rpm. I use roller-tipped-only aluminum adjustable rockers. My cylinder pressure has run between 175 and 190 depending on which cam was in it at the time. I run 87E10 exclusively. And my engine does not care much about idle-timing; I run 14 to 16.
Other tricks;
I run the big Milodon oilpan, for extra capacity and extra cooling. But it usually has no more than 6 qts in it, to divorce the oil from the crank as much as possible. I run the dual 3" full-length mandrel-bent cannons, not because my engine needs them, but to shuttle the heat out as fast as possible. I closed off the area between the bottom of the rad-cradle and the K, with a custom steel belly-pan mostly to protect the oilpan which hangs down nearly an inch and I kept snagging it on things; but also to force the air that was exiting the rad to flow rearwards over the engine, and out past the headers, and finally under the car; unconventional I know, but it's a streeter,limited to street speeds. The Barracuda has about a 1inch rake front to back, in an effort to create a low pressure area back there, to help draw the hot air out.Ima thinking it must be working cuz the floor gets pretty hot.
I like to leave it idling for long periods of time, when amongst other hotrods, to shame those guys who cannot so do,lol. You know, kindof in your face azzhole. It ain't cuz of the lope, cuz my 230 cam has very little of it. I keep the idle Rs up, to keep the fan spinning with the underdrive pulleys, and to keep the oil circulating with the HV pump, and to be sneaky. No lope = no threat.
So again,I offer this for your perusal believing that you are aware of most or all these tricks, but also as of interest to those others who may come afterwards and who do not.
 
marvel7.jpg
Oh, no. Learned my lesson years ago. The only "additive" that goes in my engines is a small dose of MMO! :)

(strongly tempted though to try Royal Purple's "Purple Ice")
 
View attachment 1715183197 Oh, no. Learned my lesson years ago. The only "additive" that goes in my engines is a small dose of MMO! :)

(strongly tempted though to try Royal Purple's "Purple Ice")
I use just straight distilled water and a bottle of Redline water wetter. I've been tempted to try other stuff too but then when I read up on it and the problems people had with it and I quickly change my mind.
 
Bob
When you are running down the road at 65 mph, this requires about 50 hp. It does not matter if you have 300 500 or 800 hp, it only takes 50 or so. And that 50hp requires a certain amount of fuel, in direct relationship to the power output. So all engines, in 3500# bricks like mine,require about the same cooling system capacity to cruise at 65 mph. If you are having trouble under these conditions,logic says that your solutions will be the same as mine were.
I'm pretty sure you know this, so I'm probably preaching to the choir.
I also understand that your bigger engine will be creating more heat strictly due to it's size.
But here's the thing; My cooling system is adequate to cruise at 120 all day long in the hottest parts of a Minnesota/South Dakota day. We know that when we double the speed it takes over 4 times the power, so let's just say 120 requires 180hp. I know that my cooling system is up to that task.
And since it went 93 in the 1/8th, without budging the needle, I also know that she is good to a tic over 400hp for 7 or 8 seconds, atta time.
I presented my solutions for your perusal. I'm not saying that my way is the only way or the best way, but it sure as chit was the cheapest and the most reliable for my power level, and for my useage.
Feel free to copy it, or not.
Again, if I'm going over old ground, my apologies.

>As to the side tanks receiving air, I agree with you; the water just doesn't spend a lot of time in the tanks,and that portion of water that passes right next to the tank skin,they say,is slow moving,sticking to the skin, in the same manner as fuel sticks to the runner walls on a cold engine. My conventional tanks are shrouded too.
>I empathize with your no-room-for-a fan-clutch, and so, I have seen that 7-blade hi-attack fan with the funky curled tips, as a direct-drive as well. And with the amount of money you likely have in that monster engine, I'm guessing reliability is a key point for you.
>If I had your problem, Ima thinking I would at least try a direct-drive monster fan on there like that, and either move the rad forward or try a thinner one.
>At idle, the major difference between our engines, in terms of heat production, is internal friction, and ring-seal, and ignition timing. So FYI, I offer this; I used Plasma-moly file-fit conventional 4.04 rings, and the Blowby at the time of install was almost immeasurable. Eventually it settled in at about 2%. I use Hughes 1110 (IIRC) springs shimmed "a little" to control the OEM valves in my OOTB Eddies, to at least 7200 rpm. I use roller-tipped-only aluminum adjustable rockers. My cylinder pressure has run between 175 and 190 depending on which cam was in it at the time. I run 87E10 exclusively. And my engine does not care much about idle-timing; I run 14 to 16.
Other tricks;
I run the big Milodon oilpan, for extra capacity and extra cooling. But it usually has no more than 6 qts in it, to divorce the oil from the crank as much as possible. I run the dual 3" full-length mandrel-bent cannons, not because my engine needs them, but to shuttle the heat out as fast as possible. I closed off the area between the bottom of the rad-cradle and the K, with a custom steel belly-pan mostly to protect the oilpan which hangs down nearly an inch and I kept snagging it on things; but also to force the air that was exiting the rad to flow rearwards over the engine, and out past the headers, and finally under the car; unconventional I know, but it's a streeter,limited to street speeds. The Barracuda has about a 1inch rake front to back, in an effort to create a low pressure area back there, to help draw the hot air out.Ima thinking it must be working cuz the floor gets pretty hot.
I like to leave it idling for long periods of time, when amongst other hotrods, to shame those guys who cannot so do,lol. You know, kindof in your face azzhole. It ain't cuz of the lope, cuz my 230 cam has very little of it. I keep the idle Rs up, to keep the fan spinning with the underdrive pulleys, and to keep the oil circulating with the HV pump, and to be sneaky. No lope = no threat.
So again,I offer this for your perusal believing that you are aware of most or all these tricks, but also as of interest to those others who may come afterwards and who do not.
I agree but to what I don't have a clue! LOL I only read about 20% of these crazy *** way too long posts LOL I love you AJ! Also everybody does know he types us all out by hand? No voice command like me...
Good Lord! LOL I had to edit my voice command and it was a pain just to scroll all the way down to the bottom to get to it! LOL
 
I use just straight distilled water and a bottle of Redline water wetter. I've been tempted to try other stuff too but then when I read up on it and the problems people had with it and I quickly change my mind.

I agree. But there are so many amateur tests contradicting each other it's hilarious.
 
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I agree. But there are so many amateur tests contradicting each other it's hilarious.
j par---whats wrong w/ royal purple additive, all I`ve read says it s the best, better than water wetter! ????
Colt--- Who u callin an amateur !! LOL
AJ---No matter,at 65 mph, a bigger hi h.p. engine will make more heat. Bigger moving parts, more weight etc. My initial timing , I dropped back to 21, it runs best /so far w/ 22. I run an alum. 7 qt old funny car pan . As I posted earlier, I run the biggest mech. fan I can. I run gapless rings, I have never had a leakage problem w/ them, and they have worked for me in 600 horse sbc engines as well as this engine, the thing a has more vacuum than the cam should allow. I run full 3 1/2" exhaust, fully wrapped from the heads to the turn downs (because I had it ) in front of the rear axle, no bends in the entire system. No interior heat and not any extra noise w/ my home rigged 3 1/2" mufflers, no back pressure and no racking. Full hughs roller set up, and .628/ 260 @ .50 street roller cam etc. The stud girdle helps control the crankcase oil deal some. Vents in the hood . Not going to a smaller rad. under any circumstances! Has more rake than 1".
And the whole car is "in ur face", most people think it`s a hemi when they hear it. Most of this "close to " overheating has came on w/ the fan experimentation. I still have a couple of things I want to try, before going back to the original set up. The whole deal started w/ me trying elec fans.
I would love to have a spoiler by randy, I think it would help some,maybe a bunch, but would be hard to tow the car "if I had to!" ( hope that isn`t needed !" Thanks for the suggestions tho--any others will be read and considered !--------AINT WE GOT FUN! Bob
 
j par---whats wrong w/ royal purple additive, all I`ve read says it s the best, better than water wetter! ????
Colt--- Who u callin an amateur !! LOL
AJ---No matter,at 65 mph, a bigger hi h.p. engine will make more heat. Bigger moving parts, more weight etc. My initial timing , I dropped back to 21, it runs best /so far w/ 22. I run an alum. 7 qt old funny car pan . As I posted earlier, I run the biggest mech. fan I can. I run gapless rings, I have never had a leakage problem w/ them, and they have worked for me in 600 horse sbc engines as well as this engine, the thing a has more vacuum than the cam should allow. I run full 3 1/2" exhaust, fully wrapped from the heads to the turn downs (because I had it ) in front of the rear axle, no bends in the entire system. No interior heat and not any extra noise w/ my home rigged 3 1/2" mufflers, no back pressure and no racking. Full hughs roller set up, and .628/ 260 @ .50 street roller cam etc. The stud girdle helps control the crankcase oil deal some. Vents in the hood . Not going to a smaller rad. under any circumstances! Has more rake than 1".
And the whole car is "in ur face", most people think it`s a hemi when they hear it. Most of this "close to " overheating has came on w/ the fan experimentation. I still have a couple of things I want to try, before going back to the original set up. The whole deal started w/ me trying elec fans.
I would love to have a spoiler by randy, I think it would help some,maybe a bunch, but would be hard to tow the car "if I had to!" ( hope that isn`t needed !" Thanks for the suggestions tho--any others will be read and considered !--------AINT WE GOT FUN! Bob
I didn't say anything was wrong with it cuz I have no personal experience with it I just thought I read some bad reviews on it. It could have been on something else because I was just reaching myself for a better way one day..
 
I didn't say anything was wrong with it cuz I have no personal experience with it I just thought I read some bad reviews on it. It could have been on something else because I was just reaching myself for a better way one day..
cool !
 
I didn't say anything was wrong with it cuz I have no personal experience with it I just thought I read some bad reviews on it. It could have been on something else because I was just reaching myself for a better way one day..
I ended up getting a bigger bottle of wetter type stuff, that`s label read the same as puple ice, but was 4 more oz. of it for $3 cheaper . Started the engine and circulated it , but didn`t drive it .
I did find that my recovery system was empty for the first time , I think I might have had trapped air in it !!
 
Sounds like u have a handle on it. But I`m sure my engine makes a hell of a lot more heat than urs. I do have the 1200 cfm throttle body sealed to the hood, always have. I do have (roughly) two 2 1/2" x 12" vents along side the 6 pack scoop. I definitely don`t have room for any clutch type fan. I doubt if it would be any better than a mech fan anyway in my case. For the 17" fan to even work, I had to build the shroud up about 2" on top and close it in to pull air w/o a loss. I cant run a bigger fan, just no room anywhere . I could cut the rad. opening out to include the side tanks on the crossflow rad., I didn`t want to because of what the car is. I can`t see that really making much diff. tho , but a little is all I need. I also could move the rad. forward by hacking the cradle up I guess, and that would give a little more room , where I might could run a bigger diameter fan. THANKS for the insight , but most of it just don`t fit my case. I think I`ll drain it down and cut the cradle out to let the side tanks have air next. ???
Front booster fan, relay, horn, and stuff in the way= pain in the --------LOL
I am wondering what effect a 15 pound cap would have in place of the super stout 16 pound that came w/ the radiator .When I saw how tite the upper hose was , it scared me a little !

correction, 2 x 16" air vents in hood------------
 
update:
custom shroud is being held up by a lot of company work for my sheet metal guy (good for him, told him to make hay while the sun shines)

He has the mock up finished, just waiting for the finished product
 
update:
custom shroud is being held up by a lot of company work for my sheet metal guy (good for him, told him to make hay while the sun shines)

He has the mock up finished, just waiting for the finished product
SHOW US PICS IF U CAN -------
 
Seems to have passed the tropical swamp test.

Drove at highway speeds.

Stopped and let it idle with A/C on and a 125+ heat index day.

Actual coolant temp at the top of the tank is 185-190.

lancer temp7.jpg


lancer shroud1.jpg
 
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