Budget 318 build

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sireland67 said:
That is the most budget friendly approach.
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And i have alot of work to do on a very tight budget! Im trying to keep everything under a grand!

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^^^ Ok, after seeing the picture, start with safety first. Brakes and steering components in proper working order are a must. Then tires. When this is done, see how much of the grand you have left.
 
$1000 budget, buy the gaskets, and lap the valves in the best set of heads you have.
Assemble and drive.
 
dartfreak75 said:
For pump gas what compression is desired? And with stock 318 would a bump in compression help without adding more flow? Just curious
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You can run the worst gas in the world on that engine LOL. It is not a worry 'til you get up in the 9's range and higher. Stock LA 318's are in the high 7's, or lower in certain truck 318's
 
318willrun said:
^^^ Ok, after seeing the picture, start with safety first. Brakes and steering components in proper working order are a must. Then tires. When this is done, see how much of the grand you have left.
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absolutely!!! That is exactly what im doing lol i am working on disassembling the front end i just ordered all my parts to rebuild the front ball joints bushing steering gear pitman idler arms breaks everthing except control arms and center link!! Im at around 400 right there but safety first
 
dartfreak75 said:
Hello guys I have a few questions and am open to suggestions on an engine im building for my dart. First off its a bone stock bottom end stock heads with a summit k6900 cam and lifters stock iron 340 intake a holley 600cfm 4160 carb and full length headers. The tranny is a stock 904 with a 71/4 rear with 276 gears. I know the rear has got to go!! But the funds arent there yet ! Ok so my questions im gonna go with a double roller timing chain should i get the one that can advance or retard the cam on the gear is this gonna be necessary with this setup? Should i just centerline the cam?What advice would you guys give? Ok next question i have a extra set of 360 heads will the stock 360 valve springs be any better than the stock 318 springs? That is all for know i will post more as they come to me lol
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I have a stock 71 318 dart. Healthy smalk block
 
Dang.. I just erased a long post...rrrrr.

Just a few things:
- Milling 360 heads by .040" puts the chambers 1-2 cc's smaller than typical stock 318 heads. When you put on those stock 360 heads with out of the box Felpro head gaskets, you dropped the SCR down to around 7.3... no wonder it wouldn't go LOL. But if these are the heads you will use for the 360 build then figure that build out before milling them.... you can't put it back on!
- Try to scrape up the $$ to get some Mr Gasket 1121G head gaskets; they are about .021" thinner that standard Felpro's, and will raise SCR here by .35 points.
- There 2-3 different 318 stock-ish piston heights. The best are the 526's but that will not really get you much change. You just don't want the very low CR truck pistons. You have figured out that any significant CR change in the block is new pistons, and that is not in the budget.
- A simple head mill here would be in the $50-75 range each here if you provide them disassembled and cleaned. Prices here are lower than a lot of others places. I don't know any of the old shops in Roanoke that are still open so don't know what you would find there.

What CR gets you is:
- Better low to mid RPM torque. That helps general drivability and over all operation on the street.
- That gives a wider usable RPM range, which gives you better cornering (not a factor for drag racing where best HP tends to be the focus), and better fuel economy (better combustion efficiency).

CR is both static CR and dynamic CR. The DCR is set by both the SCR and the cam. It is also effected by altitude and you are around 2500' elevation IIRC so that matters too. The point of discussing the cam is that the long duration lowers DCR and effects the above, and moreso with altitude. For not much more $$, there are better cam choices for what you want to do. I expect the PN I gave you will give you better torque and the same peak HP because although the advertised durations are shorter, the lift is higher (like having bigger ports). Yes, the other will run, but I can't see why not go better for your intended application for another $20.
 
I looked that cam up on summit that would be an awesome choice if I had more money to spend and didnt already have a cam id get that! Thank you for that info all this info is learning me alot lol
 
nm9stheham said:
OK, sounds like it can't be sent back...that happens. Onward and upward!
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No i dont think so i have had it for a while no idea where the receipt is alltho it is a summit brand cam i dont think theres a chance i got it from jegs lol
 
Ok i have another question iv been reading on here about cam break in and someone said to make sure the lifters are turning. How are you supposed to do that with an assembled engine turning 2000rpms? Also it says to not let the engine crank like if it dont start or whatever how much cranking is too much if it doesnt fire right up?
 
nm9stheham said:
OP, since this is from a pickup, put a piston at the top of it's stroke and very carefully measure down from the block deck to the piston top. What you want to avoid is the low compression truck pistons; the typical compression is low for a 318 but the truck pistons are reeeeally low. With your cam selection (which IMHO is too large for street cruising with stock 318 parts) and rear gear, this thing is going to be struggling to get moving. Loosing any compression is just going to make that worse.

As for the hone and new rings, well you ARE on a budget. What you need to look out for is the wear in the bores (overall wear, taper and out-of-roundness), and the wear on the ring lands on the pistons. If the bore is worn too much or the ring lands are worn, new rings are never going to seal well. Let us know if you need any info on measuring those parameters.

Yes, for sure buy the adjustable timing sprockets. I would be looking to advance the cam in a low compression engine.

BTW, a lot of answers will vary on how you plan to use this engine/car. Can you tell us if this is for cruising, drag racing, road racing/autocross, hauling potatoes, or...??
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Hi, just to add what I have currently. I have two 1990 318 truck engines with orig pistons .045 in the hole and a 1987 car 318 with the orig pistons .075 in the hole. Just my 2c.
 
The .075 in the hole would be the higher car pistons. The .045" in the hole is not making sense to me... any way those are maybe early 90's Magnum truck engines? Re-check the 'in-the-hole' measurement very carefully, and if it truly .045" then that a notable improvement; that gives you nearly 0.5 point in CR. (And we're assuming either flat tops or flat tops with 4 small eyebrows.)

(FWIW, the truck pistons that are very low CR were around .100-.110" in the hole.)

You asked about seeing the lifters rotating; there are 2 ways:
- Mark the pushrods with a mark along the upper side with a light colored grease pencil or welders pencil. (Makes it easy to see the rotation). Turn the engine over by hand with it all assembled and look to see that the marks move around for each pushrod.
- If you have some old valve covers, take a pair, cut out large rectangular holes to take the tops off, put in some gaskets, and and then you can watch the pushrods 'live'. This way is more fun but by the time you get around to looking closely at them all at startup, the damage may be done.

As for cranking, I have done as much as 15-20 seconds with a cam with moderately heavy valve springs, and not had any issues. I could not tell you how long is too much, just that less is safer, but if you have stock valve springs, then it is going to be less critical IMHO. BTW I always use a moly based cam lube, which many folks think gives better protection, not the runny kind.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
When it comes to budget building... sometimes the best approach is to just buy a 160 dollar set of pistons and rings, have the block done, polish the crank and put some cheapo bearings in. Ring seal is where the power and longevity lies.

Buy all that stuff like an intake and carburetor... and headers ...and cam and lifters, and you realize you could build a bottom end already...

Best budget motor I ever ran was a 318 I found in a junkyard that someone had done the bottom end, some cheap-o pistons and ground the crank. I pulled it out tore the 360 heads off of it and brought it home, it was never even run...
I slapped a used set of 318 heads on it that had closed Chambers, stock 340 cam, and an eddy performer I also found in the junk yard for 25 bucks and ran it.... it ran hard to 5800 rpm.
I tried that same **** with a used 318 one time that had about 115 to 120 PSI....it was "soft as **** after taking a laxative" and burnt oil.

I'd almost rather have a fresh stock 318 than a used one with bolt on' s and a cam. Jmo
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I'm gonna use that one if ya dont mind.....;) Na but really, I built a 318 with stock heads, a summit cam, Edelbrock intake with 600 Holley and headers, ran good for around town, sounded good too, people thought it was a 340, on the other hand, I was running scoops with 340 badges...
 
Ok so I have been fortunate enough to have found a rearend with better than 276 years 373s to be exact and I came up with a little extra money for my build so im seriously considering taking you all's advise and rebuilding the bottom end. And milling my 360 heads and using them. Starting with the bottom. I know i know how to get my compression height number take the stroke 3.31 divide by to and the rod length 6.123 which puts me at 7.778 then subtract the deck height. That's where im stuck how do I find the deck height iv read alot and it says that 318s are like 9.6 but they can vary how do I measure to find this out? Ok and what i the stock 318 compression height? I found some kbs that are 1.741 how does that compare with stock and how much differnce in compression will that make without machining the deck height down to 0?
 
nm9stheham said:
The .075 in the hole would be the higher car pistons. The .045" in the hole is not making sense to me... any way those are maybe early 90's Magnum truck engines? Re-check the 'in-the-hole' measurement very carefully, and if it truly .045" then that a notable improvement; that gives you nearly 0.5 point in CR. (And we're assuming either flat tops or flat tops with 4 small eyebrows.)

(FWIW, the truck pistons that are very low CR were around .100-.110" in the hole.)

You asked about seeing the lifters rotating; there are 2 ways:
- Mark the pushrods with a mark along the upper side with a light colored grease pencil or welders pencil. (Makes it easy to see the rotation). Turn the engine over by hand with it all assembled and look to see that the marks move around for each pushrod.
- If you have some old valve covers, take a pair, cut out large rectangular holes to take the tops off, put in some gaskets, and and then you can watch the pushrods 'live'. This way is more fun but by the time you get around to looking closely at them all at startup, the damage may be done.

As for cranking, I have done as much as 15-20 seconds with a cam with moderately heavy valve springs, and not had any issues. I could not tell you how long is too much, just that less is safer, but if you have stock valve springs, then it is going to be less critical IMHO. BTW I always use a moly based cam lube, which many folks think gives better protection, not the runny kind.
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I guess if I decide to pull the trigger and do this bottom end rebuild I need to just pull the heads and measure my deck height!! The I will know for sure. If it is .045 like coyote said the added piston height should give me almost 1 cr correct. I just gotta figure out the difference in the compresson height in my stock ones vs the 1.741. Ok next question you mentioned earlier about measuring the walls of the block for taper and all that how is this done best without machine shop tools?
 
Ok i was looking on summit and i just found the sp526 pistons nm9stheham was talking about they are 1.745 compression height and 35$ cheaper than the kbs. How much is will this help without machine work assuming my cylinder walls are in order and are not out of wack!?
 
The KB's that are 1.741" CH are actually Silvolite cast pistons. That CH will put your piston tops around .075" in the hole. So they are not any type of higher CH pistons as has been discussed. The 526's are the same CH but are a bit better for compression since they do not have eyebrows for valve clearance. The lack of eyebrows reduces the compression volume by 3 cc's; it is a small help, and, for CR, is equivalent to moving the piston top up by around .015 to .020". But it does not get you where you would ideally like to be; I list those simply because they are best you can get in a stock replacement these days.

KB167's have a CH of 1.810" which would put them about .012" down in the hole from a nominal stock deck height of 9.600". But they are much lighter than stock 318 pistons so that will involve a rebalance of the crank. You can rebalance the crank ONLY, if you are willing to do some work for the other parts (the rods in particular) and can get an accurate scale. But that all may be beyond what you want to do.

So that is it for the least expensive 318 pistons. There was a discussion a few days ago where someone had a '68 318 and the pitons were very high up in the bores, but I don't know where you would get some very early 318 pistons. Maybe an NOS-parts dealer might have some.

As far as measuring the deck height and taper.... the deck height is very difficult to do without precision shop tools. I have never done it on my own as it involves precisely finding the crank centerline. You could do various other things but it takes precise work. For a modest rebuild, I would just run it 'as is'.

As for bore taper, you need at least a telescope gauge and a micrometer; telescope gauges needs some practice to use. For speed, hauling the block to a shop and asking them to do it is quickest.
 
Thank you nm9stheham you answered my next question about the lighter pistons I was gonna ask that requires a rebalance lol i found some seal power pistons that was claimed to be 1.755 on ebay those would help some that would put me .014 closer to the top. The 167 are out of the question they are upwards of 400$ after rings that's way out of the budget. Im actually kinda considering my options of maybe calling a shop and seeing how much it would cost to mill the deck to 0 them maybe bore it 10 over to make sure it seals install new pistons mill the 360 heads to around 60ish cc and just selling my 360 core and put the money in this motor. After all the work iv done I'm not sure I'm gonna wanna pull the motor again maybe it's better to just put a little extra in this one and make it permanent. Idk i got alot to decide
 
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