Fitech issues

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Ges2343

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So here it goes dumb it down for me.

Anybody care to share their base timing for a 5.9 magnum.

I set it up like I would any distributor rotor dead on#1.-10 on the balancer and -10 on the controller and starter was kicking back. Changed to 0 on controller and still no fire. Still fighting with the starter. Rotated the distributor CW a little and it fired but shut down immediately. Kept monkeying with it and got it to run but have to pedal it and timing is way retarded. I can hear it in the exhaust. Firing on the down stroke. Handheld is set at -25deg.

I think I know what the problem is but I want some input. First off the PWM for fuel pump is a load of crap. I’m running an in tank pump and want to use my own relay. Who would want to use their 18-20gauge aluminum stranded wire to power a 15 amp circuit. Anyways I didn’t realize that the my relay was trying to be controlled by PWM. Obviously it will see it’s initial prime at 100% but then will send a pulse not strong enough to open the relay. In my frustration I think I rotated the distributor past the sweet spot. I think that’s why it popped over and did not fully start. It only supplied 12v during the prime period than the signal was not strong enough to power the relay to turn the pump on. How can I set this thing to give full 12v to energize the relay. I’m about to just the relay to key on/crank.


Next comes

Instuctions talk about centering reluctor paddle. If I do that than technically I’m 22.5 deg off from the get go. The signal to fire is when the paddle crosses the reluctor. So if I’m in the middle of the 45 deg swing to the next post on the cap I’m 22.5 deg off. Correct? If you set your advance in the handheld this can compensate. I had to draw this on paper to make sense. I’m still questioning myself on if I’m correct.

I am running a tsp distributor the 50$ one that is not a direct msd clone. Has 2 wires. Spring and weights removed and it’s welded to lockout the advance.

My experience has been nothing like the YouTube videos with the one try one starts but most are not using timing control.

I’m curious where you guys set your base timing for a 5.9 magnum also.
 
I am running a Fitech system on a 56 330 Desoto Hemi, but mine does not have any timing control, only fuel. I set up the timing as I would do with a carb and timed it manually like normal. It starts and runs great.
 
70chall440 said:
I am running a Fitech system on a 56 330 Desoto Hemi, but mine does not have any timing control, only fuel. I set up the timing as I would do with a carb and timed it manually like normal. It starts and runs great.
Click to expand...
Same. I had some issues with a couple small vacuum leaks but I sorted it out.

I went with the easiest setup first just to get it running and to get familar with the system, and i will start to play with timing control etc later on. Ran great after a few small hiccups
 
There is a really good on facebook where people give advice on the Fitech systems. I recommend it even to just read up on your challenges / plans. Lots of great stuff on there.
I have an intank pump also but did not run a relay, just went right to the pump as per the instructions.
 
is the PWM set to 100% how big is the relay i use an off the shelf generic without problems
 
Ges2343 said:
Instuctions talk about centering reluctor paddle. If I do that than technically I’m 22.5 deg off from the get go. The signal to fire is when the paddle crosses the reluctor. So if I’m in the middle of the 45 deg swing to the next post on the cap I’m 22.5 deg off. Correct? If you set your advance in the handheld this can compensate. I had to draw this on paper to make sense. I’m still questioning myself on if I’m correct.

I am running a tsp distributor the 50$ one that is not a direct msd clone. Has 2 wires. Spring and weights removed and it’s welded to lockout the advance.

My experience has been nothing like the YouTube videos with the one try one starts but most are not using timing control.

I’m curious where you guys set your base timing for a 5.9 magnum also.
Click to expand...

I haven't set one of these up but there has to be a setting in there to compensate for the difference between rotor and reluctor. This would be the same idea if you were running a crank trigger and a distributor just to get rotor/ spark distribution.

In other words once you get EFI set up to compensate for wherever the reluctor is triggering, the rotor should be centered pretty much in the spark curve An example closer to home is the stock ignition, either electronic or points

On a stock dist. the reluctor/ points opening cam is tied mechanically to the rotor. So they "track" if they were ever correct

But the vacuum can moves the points/ pickup coil and the rotor does NOT track that action. So the rotor has to be in the right "area" so that no matter where the advance plate moves, the spark still has a path from the rotor to the cap. The extremes are retard and advance, with the rotor "corner to corner" at a cap contact. "Rotor phasing" is the popular modern term

I would NOT center the rotor at TDC. That is not where your timing "is." On even a mild engine you are looking at 10-15 BTC or more on up to whatever full advance is. I would point the rotor at more like 25--30 BTC. Remember that the distro only revolves 1/2 as far as the crank, so that say, 20" or so swing of advance at the crank (20+/- BTC to 40 BTC +/-) is only 10 degrees of rotor rotation.

To put this yet another way, if you are going to use a "full curve" to simulate street/ vacuum advance, I would center the rotor roughly on the center of that curve. If you let's say are going to run maybe 15 initial to 50 counting "vacuum" then I would point the rotor to say 32-33 or close as you can figure. You can measure and calculate off the balancer if it is not marked

Hope this gives you some ideas. You WILL have to set the rotor position first, because obviously rotating the distro after will affect whatever "the box" is trying to do.

I ran my Holley for as long as I did with a conventional distro and no EFI timing. I figured I had enough to worry about "til later." You might consider the same. You could set it up for no spark control and drop in a standard distro to get the thing going and fuel roughed into place

THIS?

https://fitechefi.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/QuickStartGuideFinalV5.pdf
 
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Heres what I would do. Use engine timing, get the car to run and address the fuel pump issue. Once the car starts and runs then switch to FiTech timing.

I edited this in;

I ran a relay for my inline fuel pump and never had a problem with it.
 
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If you have a fuel pump that doesn't play well with pwm then you need to set pwm at 100 percent on the handheld.

As far as the timing goes, you need a phasable rotor to work with timing control. If you do a Google search for msd rotor phasing, some fitech info should come up. Also check out the FB group.
 
I got some ideas to test. Thanks guys.

I really think the fuel pump PWM screwed the pooch on this one. I didn’t change it to 100% after I started messing with the dizzy. As soon as I can get some garage time I will update.

Afterthought is I should have set up without timing control but running with boost I will need it. Ignition box is a hi fire 6 with boost retard dial so I could do it possibly with the locked out distributor temporarily. Just to get it to idle and run.

Dist. phasing is a point but I don’t think it’s needed just to make it idle. Moving the pickup would correct the phasing issue. Considering my distributor uses a standard mopar cap and rotor getting a adjustable rotor isn’t an option.

It’s hard try and pedal it to keep it going and shoot a timing light at the balancer when you are by yourself.
 
Ges2343 said:
Dist. phasing is a point but I don’t think it’s needed just to make it idle. Moving the pickup would correct the phasing issue. Considering my distributor uses a standard mopar cap and rotor getting a adjustable rotor isn’t an option.
Click to expand...

I think you are incorrect but can't really prove it. You have to remember that the reluctor triggers the spark BUT THE BOX (EFI) delays it from there to establish timing for the spark.

So when the spark happens, the rotor /cap MUST be properly aligned. If you move the distributor without redoing box settings you WILL move timing because you are moving the pickup coil (distributor body)
 
67Dart273 said:
I think you are incorrect but can't really prove it. You have to remember that the reluctor triggers the spark BUT THE BOX (EFI) delays it from there to establish timing for the spark.

So when the spark happens, the rotor /cap MUST be properly aligned. If you move the distributor without redoing box settings you WILL move timing because you are moving the pickup coil (distributor body)
Click to expand...


Maybe I said that wrong. Only after it’s up and running and I have windowed a cap will I play with moving the reluctor to phase the distributor. That is not my first step in fixing the current issue.
 
Ges2343 said:
Maybe I said that wrong. Only after it’s up and running and I have windowed a cap will I play with moving the reluctor to phase the distributor. That is not my first step in fixing the current issue.
Click to expand...

Well no, not if you are using the box to control timing. The delay in the box is what sets the spark point, not the physical location of the pickup/ reluctor. That of course depends on the delay range "in the box" which could be limited. You are thinking, "I think" of a conventional distributor ignition, where the physical and electrical trigger point of the reluctor / points IS important to cap rotor phasing.

Here's another thought: The distributor cap/ rotor MUST be in a certain physical range, to point the rotor at the cap contact at the correct timing point. This is in relationship to the crank position. So in essence, that MUST BE.

The reluctor triggers "at some point." The box then delays that point IN TIME to place the spark in correct relation to the crank. We talk about advance, and advance curve, but remember, electronics CANNOT actually ADVANCE timing. Electronics MUST delay the spark "from some point." We don't have time travel into the future, yet LOL
 
Ges2343 said:
So here it goes dumb it down for me.

Anybody care to share their base timing for a 5.9 magnum.

.

I set it up like I would any distributor rotor dead on#1.-10 on the balancer and -10 on the controller and starter was kicking back. Changed to 0 on controller and still no fire. Still fighting with the starter. Rotated the distributor CW a little and it fired but shut down immediately. Kept monkeying with it and got it to run but have to pedal it and timing is way retarded. I can hear it in the exhaust. Firing on the down stroke. Handheld is set at -25deg.

I think I know what the problem is but I want some input. First off the PWM for fuel pump is a load of crap. I’m running an in tank pump and want to use my own relay. Who would want to use their 18-20gauge aluminum stranded wire to power a 15 amp circuit. Anyways I didn’t realize that the my relay was trying to be controlled by PWM. Obviously it will see it’s initial prime at 100% but then will send a pulse not strong enough to open the relay. In my frustration I think I rotated the distributor past the sweet spot. I think that’s why it popped over and did not fully start. It only supplied 12v during the prime period than the signal was not strong enough to power the relay to turn the pump on. How can I set this thing to give full 12v to energize the relay. I’m about to just the relay to key on/crank.


Next comes

Instuctions talk about centering reluctor paddle. If I do that than technically I’m 22.5 deg off from the get go. The signal to fire is when the paddle crosses the reluctor. So if I’m in the middle of the 45 deg swing to the next post on the cap I’m 22.5 deg off. Correct? If you set your advance in the handheld this can compensate. I had to draw this on paper to make sense. I’m still questioning myself on if I’m correct.

I am running a tsp distributor the 50$ one that is not a direct msd clone. Has 2 wires. Spring and weights removed and it’s welded to lockout the advance.

My experience has been nothing like the YouTube videos with the one try one starts but most are not using timing control.

I’m curious where you guys set your base timing for a 5.9 magnum also.
Click to expand...

Take a look at that distributor! When it's in the engine grab the rotor and wiggle it. I had a TSP distributor (the MSD clone) and it Fit so loosely in the timing gear slot that it probably had 10 degrees of play. I never could get it to run right and the timing was all over the place. Bought a good MSD (after wasting $169.00 on the TSP) and it runs fine
 
Checked the slop no issue there. So I went about halfway back to where I started set base time at 10 deg. Fired up and tried to idle. Got the timing light out started again and shot the balancer. Showing about 6deg on the balancer. But I would get an erratic spark here and there. Late spark about every 5-10 blinks about 10-15 deg late. Checked controller codes and came up with the rpm noise code.

Should I bite the bullet and buy the real deal MSD? Junk the 50$ msd knockoff or start shielding wires? Only wires that need shielding are the 2 distributor wires correct. I don’t really see what they would need shielding from as the wires come out of the dristributor and go under the intake runners and come up to the throttle body no where near the ignition wires.
 
Noise can be a very big problem and may not be "getting in" from only the distributor pickup. Could possibly be from other sensors, temp, etc. But for now, try twisting them if you can, or dressing them down close to engine/ firewall. How long is the trigger cable?
 
Just long enough to reach the distributor.i think I had to add a few inches to reach. No slack. One thing I didn’t think about is I had the battery charger on it the whole time. That could have contributed to some noise. Alternator is not connected. I could try adding some grounds as my battery is in the rear.
 
RPM noise is a big problem. Make sure that you twist the wires coming from the pickup coil in the distributor (important) and if you can shield the wires with a braiding that will help as well. Make sure you ground the braiding to the engine. I had these problems early on as well. Don't have any issues with noise now.
 
Ges2343 said:
Checked the slop no issue there. So I went about halfway back to where I started set base time at 10 deg. Fired up and tried to idle. Got the timing light out started again and shot the balancer. Showing about 6deg on the balancer. But I would get an erratic spark here and there. Late spark about every 5-10 blinks about 10-15 deg late. Checked controller codes and came up with the rpm noise code.

Should I bite the bullet and buy the real deal MSD? Junk the 50$ msd knockoff or start shielding wires? Only wires that need shielding are the 2 distributor wires correct. I don’t really see what they would need shielding from as the wires come out of the dristributor and go under the intake runners and come up to the throttle body no where near the ignition wires.
Click to expand...

Buy the MSD adjustable rotor and read this article.

Ask Away! with Jeff Smith: Rotor Phasing and How it Relates to Aftermarket EFI Systems - OnAllCylinders
 
Ges2343 said:
Just long enough to reach the distributor.i think I had to add a few inches to reach. No slack. One thing I didn’t think about is I had the battery charger on it the whole time. That could have contributed to some noise. Alternator is not connected. I could try adding some grounds as my battery is in the rear.
Click to expand...
My battery is in the rear as well The battery charger will have a certain amount of AC ripple (noise) associated with it. Make sure that your engine has a ground strap to the frame. Make sure you twist the pickup coil wire from the distributor to the FITECH throttle body and shield it with a grounded braided steel cover. Route all of the Fitech wires as far possible from any ignition sources this includes the O2 sensor wire. I also ran my my main Fitech positive and negative wired all the way back to the battery. Hope this helps.
 
MIne is a single turbo 5.9 with the 1200 PA. I have the MSD knock off with phasable rotor. Pump is an inline AEM 380lph on a relay, battery in the trunk. I never touched the PWM setting. Base timing is 20*. I bought an extra cap and put a hole in it to help me phase it. Wires from the distributor are shielded but I never had an idle problem before they were shielded, just an occasional fault code.
 
subcom said:
MIne is a single turbo 5.9 with the 1200 PA. I have the MSD knock off with phasable rotor. Pump is an inline AEM 380lph on a relay, battery in the trunk. I never touched the PWM setting. Base timing is 20*. I bought an extra cap and put a hole in it to help me phase it. Wires from the distributor are shielded but I never had an idle problem before they were shielded, just an occasional fault code.
Click to expand...


Your build was what made me chose the Fitech instead of going blow-thru. I’m running the 600pa. With FiTech’s 340lph e85 pump. I wanted to leave that option on the table. My setup is very similar to yours if I remember correctly. Stock bottom end re-ringed and new bearings. Hughes Eq magnum heads 2.02 with bowl work. You are on the turbo I’m on the Vortech. Cam is a.525” lift 113lsa custom grind for boost. My distributor is the cheap 50$ one that doesn’t take the msd caps or rotors. That’s why I question the distributor.

How much did you have to play with the idle screw. Mine is trying to idle at 400rpm.


Definitely going to try some of all your recommendations. I can’t get and shielding locally that would look half way decent. I have some at work I can try temporarily. Its an aluminum heat sheathing. Used for protecting lines running near exhaust. Thing is it’s abot 2” in diameter. I’m definitely going to add some more ground as right not the only one is at the frame by the battery. I’m going to move the fitechs main power to the battery terminal.

What gauge wire did you use from the battery I used 2 gauge. Mounted a 3/8 battery stud with 4 ga running to the starter. Put a 200amp resettable breaker near the battery. Next thing bigger at work is 3/0 which is overkill. I might get a piece for the ground to the frame then 2ga off the frame to the motor.

Hopefully the winter weather will hold off. They are calling for 8-12” of snow and ice over the weekend which isn’t good in N.C.. hopefully I can give you an update soon.
 
I would recommend you try to get it going without the Fitech controlling the timing. Obviously you don't want to get into boost before being able to remove timing but it's sounds like you're still a ways off from boost if the idle is unstable. The IAC setting is super important. Don't skip that part and you shouldn't try to set it until the engine is warm which is the 170* default breakpoint on the Fitech. Your wiring all sounds sane to me.
 
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