stixx
Well-Known Member
RAPOM = Mopar
Those are very likely the Speedmaster heads...
Those are very likely the Speedmaster heads...
Crank end play, destroyed converter, 408 nightmare
- Thread starter 1974scamp
- Start date
-
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Tnx sir. Your case is my reminder of why 91 octane is a definite step down in octane. Then AJ comes along and messes that all up LOL.
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 24,870
- Reaction score
- 12,218
87E10fastgas@up to 185psi (so far),@.034Q,running a minimum coolant temp of 205*F, with full timing of 34*delayed to 3400rpm, and at 930ft elevation.
I keep preaching; just because it idles great with 20* initial, doesn't mean you should run 20* initial. It makes setting up the advance curve really tricky, with those aftermarket mini-wire-gauge springs. You just can't run 1969 timing curves any more.
Nobody drives at 750 rpm. Who cares what the idle timing is. Get the Transfers synced up and whatever timing it takes is what it gets.
Get the timing set right for where you drive, and let the rest be what it will be. You'll never miss 7 or 10 or 12 or whatever horsepower on the street with a 360 and street gears ....... because the tires can't handle hardly half power in first gear anyway, and 3.23s will get you close to 60mph@6000. You don't need 400hp to do that. Nor 350, probably not even 300. I mean 340s regularly burned those Polyglass tires to 60 mph or at least all the way thru first gear. And they did it with the fattest radials you could put in the Darts as well.
My timing is fast up to 28*@2800, then lazy to 34* at 3400, badaboom..... But I have a manual trans with a 10.97 starter gear, so 2800 is only 20 mph in first gear, and the engine is very lightly loaded. And that same starter gear will get me 50@7000, still very lightly loaded,cuz........... the tires are still spinning. If that car ever got traction and actually had to work in first gear,IDK if the results would be the same. I would test that theory out, but it spins those crappy BFGs all the way thru second too. Sorry I can't be of more help,lol.
Everybody just get you some BFGs and problem solved....... or Coopers, they did the same........ or BFG-Drs, they did the same. lol, sorry. I'm having waaaay too much fun,lol..
I'm not bragging on the engine; she's just a plain-Jane 367 with a 230 cam
I'm not bragging on any perceived engine building,or tuning prowess; I'm just a gearhead like most of you guys. But
what I am doing is ragging on the tires and rear suspension, that makes spinning to 80 mph possible. I would change that, but since 1999, it's been just too much fun; it's what I built the car to do; I don't care that it 60fts in the 2.2 to 2.4 range,lol.
Wait; did I just get off topic again?
Oh yeah; timing
Sorry OP for muddying up your thread, say the word and I can now hit delete, thanks to the new button.
Ok so timing; I get that for a racer timing is crucial, cuz he wants to win.
But most of us are streeters and our rigs operate at other than, 5000 to 6500 at WOT; so our engines have vastly different timing requirements. Starting with 20* at 750 rpm is IMO, just so wrong.
My very hi compression engine was far easier to tune with a two-stage curve; it is fast up to around 2800, and then I slowed it down to stay out of detonation, and limited it to less than what I thought might be optimum... then I spent a few hours getting to know this engine, and then I snuck up on the final power-timing.Since it seemed to run the same everywhere between 32 and 36, I just set it to 32 for that summer. Next summer I set it to 34* and that is where it has been since about 2004.
And here's the thing about idle timing; the more you give her, the less you will hear the cam..... and everybody wants to hear the cam..... right? So back it up to 5* and enjoy the lumpiddy lump idle,lol. Ok no don't do that,lol. Just set the Transfer slot sync, and then set the idle speed with timing and idle-air bypass. The Idle timing will generally fall into the range of 10 to 16,so just let it be what it will be. It will make curving the D so much easier.
BTW my 367 now has accumulated over 100,000 miles or so, and except for one half-tank, has never seen other than 87E10. IMO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this fuel. It is not hard on my fuel system either, nor hard on my 750DP. All it takes to run it is a slight timing delay to 34* @3400rpm. There is a good chance I could bring it in a bit sooner, but the engine makes so much power/torque as is, that I just quit at that number.
With a manual trans, you have to be careful to not bring in too much too early on account of the bigger cam will A) make it very jumpy down low; and we don't have a fluid coupling for those pressure spikes to get lost in; and B) the car will act like it has an on/off switch attached to the gas pedal, wanting to jump ahead with the slightest pedal, and C) a manual trans car with street-type gears, spends a lotta time in the low-rpm zone, and the engine is married to the rearend, so this kind of uncivilized behaviour, IMO, is unacceptable. It is very easy to over-time a manual trans street car.
And finally, here in Manitoba,Canada, I am at 930 ft elevation, and this doesn't change much for hundreds of miles in most directions, and then only a a small percentage.Plus our summer daytime highs,vary in temp only a few degrees, with a day-night difference of no more than 25*F, usually closer to 15 degrees........ So my tune could be pretty mean. However, I choose to be just a lil fat. It seems to quiet the dual 3" cannons out the back bumper................ lol
I keep preaching; just because it idles great with 20* initial, doesn't mean you should run 20* initial. It makes setting up the advance curve really tricky, with those aftermarket mini-wire-gauge springs. You just can't run 1969 timing curves any more.
Nobody drives at 750 rpm. Who cares what the idle timing is. Get the Transfers synced up and whatever timing it takes is what it gets.
Get the timing set right for where you drive, and let the rest be what it will be. You'll never miss 7 or 10 or 12 or whatever horsepower on the street with a 360 and street gears ....... because the tires can't handle hardly half power in first gear anyway, and 3.23s will get you close to 60mph@6000. You don't need 400hp to do that. Nor 350, probably not even 300. I mean 340s regularly burned those Polyglass tires to 60 mph or at least all the way thru first gear. And they did it with the fattest radials you could put in the Darts as well.
My timing is fast up to 28*@2800, then lazy to 34* at 3400, badaboom..... But I have a manual trans with a 10.97 starter gear, so 2800 is only 20 mph in first gear, and the engine is very lightly loaded. And that same starter gear will get me 50@7000, still very lightly loaded,cuz........... the tires are still spinning. If that car ever got traction and actually had to work in first gear,IDK if the results would be the same. I would test that theory out, but it spins those crappy BFGs all the way thru second too. Sorry I can't be of more help,lol.
Everybody just get you some BFGs and problem solved....... or Coopers, they did the same........ or BFG-Drs, they did the same. lol, sorry. I'm having waaaay too much fun,lol..
I'm not bragging on the engine; she's just a plain-Jane 367 with a 230 cam
I'm not bragging on any perceived engine building,or tuning prowess; I'm just a gearhead like most of you guys. But
what I am doing is ragging on the tires and rear suspension, that makes spinning to 80 mph possible. I would change that, but since 1999, it's been just too much fun; it's what I built the car to do; I don't care that it 60fts in the 2.2 to 2.4 range,lol.
Wait; did I just get off topic again?
Oh yeah; timing
Sorry OP for muddying up your thread, say the word and I can now hit delete, thanks to the new button.
Ok so timing; I get that for a racer timing is crucial, cuz he wants to win.
But most of us are streeters and our rigs operate at other than, 5000 to 6500 at WOT; so our engines have vastly different timing requirements. Starting with 20* at 750 rpm is IMO, just so wrong.
My very hi compression engine was far easier to tune with a two-stage curve; it is fast up to around 2800, and then I slowed it down to stay out of detonation, and limited it to less than what I thought might be optimum... then I spent a few hours getting to know this engine, and then I snuck up on the final power-timing.Since it seemed to run the same everywhere between 32 and 36, I just set it to 32 for that summer. Next summer I set it to 34* and that is where it has been since about 2004.
And here's the thing about idle timing; the more you give her, the less you will hear the cam..... and everybody wants to hear the cam..... right? So back it up to 5* and enjoy the lumpiddy lump idle,lol. Ok no don't do that,lol. Just set the Transfer slot sync, and then set the idle speed with timing and idle-air bypass. The Idle timing will generally fall into the range of 10 to 16,so just let it be what it will be. It will make curving the D so much easier.
BTW my 367 now has accumulated over 100,000 miles or so, and except for one half-tank, has never seen other than 87E10. IMO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this fuel. It is not hard on my fuel system either, nor hard on my 750DP. All it takes to run it is a slight timing delay to 34* @3400rpm. There is a good chance I could bring it in a bit sooner, but the engine makes so much power/torque as is, that I just quit at that number.
With a manual trans, you have to be careful to not bring in too much too early on account of the bigger cam will A) make it very jumpy down low; and we don't have a fluid coupling for those pressure spikes to get lost in; and B) the car will act like it has an on/off switch attached to the gas pedal, wanting to jump ahead with the slightest pedal, and C) a manual trans car with street-type gears, spends a lotta time in the low-rpm zone, and the engine is married to the rearend, so this kind of uncivilized behaviour, IMO, is unacceptable. It is very easy to over-time a manual trans street car.
And finally, here in Manitoba,Canada, I am at 930 ft elevation, and this doesn't change much for hundreds of miles in most directions, and then only a a small percentage.Plus our summer daytime highs,vary in temp only a few degrees, with a day-night difference of no more than 25*F, usually closer to 15 degrees........ So my tune could be pretty mean. However, I choose to be just a lil fat. It seems to quiet the dual 3" cannons out the back bumper................ lol
Last edited:
furrystump
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2004
- Messages
- 2,100
- Reaction score
- 1,697
I have had issues with that head gasket. They say no need to retorqued the head. I have popped two of them at about 10:1, changed over to torquing them and letting sit overnight. Then back off a 1/4 turn and retorqued them one at a time in order. No more issues. Now I run cometics.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
God does AJ braggardly ramble on.
You're "not bragging" ,nope.. not while you refer to your motor as "she".
When you REALLY run your car hard...let us know. Otherwise save the novel for a pm.
The 1008 seem to come off with a 3/8 ratchet... never liked that. No issues with the 8553 , yet... but I dont run them at over 10.1 comp.
You're "not bragging" ,nope.. not while you refer to your motor as "she".
When you REALLY run your car hard...let us know. Otherwise save the novel for a pm.
The 1008 seem to come off with a 3/8 ratchet... never liked that. No issues with the 8553 , yet... but I dont run them at over 10.1 comp.
skep419
No show, all go!
I enjoy the winded Aj posts. To each their own I guess.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Pay attention and you'll see others info become his own. His dynamic was lower....then it became the same as someone else's. To each his own indeed. IF you really pay attention... you notice these things.
ode to the mighty 367. lol
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
LOL!
famous bob
mopar misfit
I built an aprox 600 horse sbc that I had trouble blowing good head gaskets on. Don't remember who told me this , but when u torque ur heads down in increments, leave the last one that finishes it, until the next morning or evening . Gives things time to relax , before final torque , very seldom have to retorque if ur using good gaskets. ----- Worked for me !
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 24,870
- Reaction score
- 12,218
Jus saying;
My engine went together in 1999 at zero-deck,with Eddies and ARP headbolts and their lube.
The first iteration was with the 292/292/108 cam and .028 gaskets; Scr was 11.1 @a tic over 185 on my gauge. I've been saying 11.3Scr for a long time but I just did the math, and I think it's only 11.1; so sorry guys I don't know when I screwed up.
I torqued them down in several steps; 50%,then; 80%,95 and 105%. The last pull was a 1/4 turn release and then pull to 105%. No retorque. By late summer of 2000 I had decided that cam didn't suit my driving style, and so I sold it. That winter,2000/2001, I pulled that engine apart and found the .028s migrating into the valley, but not yet leaking. I blamed the gaskets.
Next,I installed a Hughes 223/110 cam and 1008s.The Scr with the thicker gasket came to ~10.8 with pressure about the same at that time, but now with a lil more Q. no biggie.
About 12 months later, I freshened the engine, and did same. But with new 1008s
About 12 months later, I freshened again but reused the previous gaskets, no retorque
About 12 months later, you guessed it, same,but with reusing previous 1008s, no retorque.
Now we're into 2004. and the 223 cam died. So I pumped up the Scr by decking and installed the next bigger Hughes cam,a 230/110 and the pressure dropped just a lil.But the Q went down. And again I installed the used gaskets with no retorque.
Now it's 15 years later and the engine is at ~10.95Scr and 180psi with .034Q...... and still on used gaskets.
Jus saying.
But see; My idle-timing is 14*, and I slowed my power-timing to 28*@2800,with a two-stage curve, which delayed the all-in to finish at 32@3400. And I burn 87E10; you know; the stuff everybody calls skunk-pee..
That 367 combo went 93 in the Eighth ............... on that skunk-pee
Jus saying.
Ode to the mighty 367
Mr Wallace says;
Oh and BTW, that was shifting at 7000,some would say; waaaaaaay past the power peak and a total waste of engine; and the tach was sorta stuck on 7000, ie spinning all the way. Imagine if I had had traction and played the power-peak.
jus saying...........
My engine went together in 1999 at zero-deck,with Eddies and ARP headbolts and their lube.
The first iteration was with the 292/292/108 cam and .028 gaskets; Scr was 11.1 @a tic over 185 on my gauge. I've been saying 11.3Scr for a long time but I just did the math, and I think it's only 11.1; so sorry guys I don't know when I screwed up.
I torqued them down in several steps; 50%,then; 80%,95 and 105%. The last pull was a 1/4 turn release and then pull to 105%. No retorque. By late summer of 2000 I had decided that cam didn't suit my driving style, and so I sold it. That winter,2000/2001, I pulled that engine apart and found the .028s migrating into the valley, but not yet leaking. I blamed the gaskets.
Next,I installed a Hughes 223/110 cam and 1008s.The Scr with the thicker gasket came to ~10.8 with pressure about the same at that time, but now with a lil more Q. no biggie.
About 12 months later, I freshened the engine, and did same. But with new 1008s
About 12 months later, I freshened again but reused the previous gaskets, no retorque
About 12 months later, you guessed it, same,but with reusing previous 1008s, no retorque.
Now we're into 2004. and the 223 cam died. So I pumped up the Scr by decking and installed the next bigger Hughes cam,a 230/110 and the pressure dropped just a lil.But the Q went down. And again I installed the used gaskets with no retorque.
Now it's 15 years later and the engine is at ~10.95Scr and 180psi with .034Q...... and still on used gaskets.
Jus saying.
But see; My idle-timing is 14*, and I slowed my power-timing to 28*@2800,with a two-stage curve, which delayed the all-in to finish at 32@3400. And I burn 87E10; you know; the stuff everybody calls skunk-pee..
That 367 combo went 93 in the Eighth ............... on that skunk-pee
Jus saying.
Ode to the mighty 367
Mr Wallace says;
Tell me again why I should want a stroker...... jus saying.
Oh and BTW, that was shifting at 7000,some would say; waaaaaaay past the power peak and a total waste of engine; and the tach was sorta stuck on 7000, ie spinning all the way. Imagine if I had had traction and played the power-peak.
jus saying...........
Last edited:
I've always wondered how that is even possible? Not having seated all the way back? But I've also seen ground up pumps because of this. Mostly due to those who bolted converter first. It's not like the flex plate adjusts? Just never have been able to visualize.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
It happens. The input of the converter doesn't get all the way into the pump. And you are right, it can kill the thrust and wipe out the pump in the trans too. The thrust by far more sensitive to load against it on startup especially.
You can tell if the converter isn't all the way into the pump. You should be pulling the converter up to the flex plate by a long way. If you barely have to move the converter just a little bit, it's not in the pump and will kill the thrust and if you have my luck, kills the pump in the trans too.
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
I have a hard time believing it was from the converter not being seated in the pump gears especially when he said he put nearly 500 miles on it. If the converter wasn't engaged properly in the pump how would it be possible to spin the gears in the pump to make pressure??? Plus, every time I saw someone do that it immediately trashed the pump gears. JMHO
on the driver side number #1 is also the worst, could there be a reason that cylinder #1 and #2 are the worst by far?
On monday ill take the whole block to a mopar specialist who built also a lot of mopar race engines and let him have a look on the whole engine.
I finished the engine about 2 years ago and put it bolted to the trans into the car
then i put not much miles on it due to overheating and some other issues
then it destroyed the first converter
took out the trans with the engine still in car
took the trans to the guy who "fixed it" and put it back into the car
then i drove the few miles, engine still really hot and on the edge of overheating, really high oil pressure on wot sometimes up to 100psi
now i took out the engine because i wanted to bring the compression down with the head gasket (which is a shitty idea i know now), install the xe275 cam and do some other modifications
also the trans slipped from 2nd to 3rd gear
so with the first converter i had really low milage on it
RAMM
Well-Known Member
If you want to hedge your bet on the thrust fix then drill a small hole through the thrust face intersecting the main oil feed while you have it down the the bare block. It won't save it if the crank is being forced forward by unnatural driveline forces but it will provide pressurized oil where it is needed.
Sorry for your troubles OP but this is a classic case of a poorly matched/machined/assembled combo. Also for your transmission get in touch with John Cope @ CRT, I have never had a Mopar Auto work right or last until I used his products.
Daves69
Well-Known Member
Well, one way is to actually have the converter set all the way into the pump and not secure it so it can't move forward on you as you're muscling it around to install. At start up the converter can shear those little lugs clean off a stock pump gerotor. (I think it cost like 27 bucks for a new one back then)
I'm thinking stock pumps may just be pressed, sintered, sized, and Blanchard ground powder metal. No match for a steel converter pump drive tube.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Could just be the block machining... it can get high and low spots. And the fuel distribution in the carb/intake can make some cylinders more prone to detonation than others. And there are variations in bolt torques, etc. So could be due to a lot of reasons IMHO.
I agree. The car might move some. But you see a problem immediately.
I have a friend that I believe didn't properly seat converter. I'm going to insist we jack up and crawl under. Unbolt converter. And reseat. I'm assuming 727 is like any trans? If seated should spin gears. If not? You would know by sound and inconsistent spin?
famous bob
mopar misfit
I skip them ----------
famous bob
mopar misfit
Speaking of convertors, I saw part of an automotive show on TV , where they drove the convertor in the trans. with a big mallet , before installing it !
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
Huh, musta been a Chevy (I hope)
famous bob
mopar misfit
Didn`t catch enough to tell what it was, but wasn't a mopar -------
-
