Help with Valvesprings and valve float. Noob

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PRH said:
I guess there’s no point in me posting anything else.
I’m probably just not qualified enough or have the experience to make a valid recommendation.
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No I went back and saw your recommendation of the Howard’s 98445..you also noted something about the comp 995 , but with 1.5 rockers???
Thanks man
 
Actually, I wasn’t recommending the 995’s for your motor, but was saying that’s what was currently recommended for your cam using stock heads, and 1.5 rockers...... neither of which you have.

Before Crane had all their financial troubles, my go to spring for this type of application was the 99893.
Ive used countless sets of those through the years.
You couldn’t get them for a while when Crane was in limbo.

The Howard’s spring I mentioned earlier is very similar.

I see you can again get the Crane 99893’s now, so those would be another option....... and they’ll also work well should the OP decide to step up to a solid lifter cam(well..... at least the old ones would. I haven’t had a set of the newer ones in my hand).
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340Duster247 said:
No I went back and saw your recommendation of the Howard’s 98445..you also noted something about the comp 995 , but with 1.5 rockers???
Thanks man
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My opinion is check the springs you have (on a good rimac tester) and the installed height first and see what you have in there,thats what has been said and needs to be done. if you don't know what they truly are then you dont know whats going on and how to fix it. Have you checked your rocker sweep pattern as well?, do these things first and then you will get better answers/result.
 
Ok guys another noob question as I start digging deeper.
I wanted to double check my installed height and check out my geometry after reading B3s tech. My installed height on the number 1 exhaust valve is 1.8. Like I remembered but when I checked fully open height the measurement was 1.5. Does that seem normal? Or is that shallow as if a lobe has been wiped....now I double checked the lift of what the exhaust is when running 1.6 rockers and comes out to be .588.

Side note I'll be contacting B3 soon to go over my **** show.
Thanks guys
 
Also photos of open vs closed sweep. Does seem to look excessive.

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340Duster247 said:
Ok guys another noob question as I start digging deeper.
I wanted to double check my installed height and check out my geometry after reading B3s tech. My installed height on the number 1 exhaust valve is 1.8. Like I remembered but when I checked fully open height the measurement was 1.5. Does that seem normal? Or is that shallow as if a lobe has been wiped....now I double checked the lift of what the exhaust is when running 1.6 rockers and comes out to be .588.

Side note I'll be contacting B3 soon to go over my **** show.
Thanks guys
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The lifter probably bled down.
 
340Duster247 said:
I started it and measured after 3 minutes of running.
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Well, it's worth checking the cam/lifters while you have it opened up. Sometimes they don't make noise for a while after a lobe wipes.
 
Hey guys I'm just removing stuff getting ready do take measurements for b3 and noticed this wear on my rocker shafts. Is this normal. On the outer edge where the bearing sits there's a little groove you can feel.

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Is this just some kind of stain or is it bumpy ???
Do you have a GOOD ground from your battery to a clean unpainted place on you block?
Electrolises.PNG
 
that looks much better. Thought you had some bad electrolyse going on.
If you can feel a groove in the shaft, there bad, in my opinion.
You need a hardened shaft for a roller bearing on the shaft.

I prefer a bushing instead of a roller. Roller tip! just not roller shaft.
If the roller bearing is still good then just get a hardened shaft to go with them.
You need to do this before you install B3RE KIT.
If he tells you different! listen to his recommendations.
Nowone is responding at the moment. So i just gave you my 2 cents:)
 
Unless you are running a really hard shaft, I think that needle bearings in rocker arms are a mistake. Especially on a long life street motor. Not enough surface area and the stronger the spring the faster it will dig in. Race motor that gets checked regularly, OK. Bushings are going to do better on a street motor IMO.
 
If you are going to switch, now is the time..........But a nice hardened shaft will fix it for cheaper then buying new shafts and rockers.

One more thought. Perfect 1.5 rocker arm ratio, on a solid can(so you don't have to question lifter bleed off) will NOT net you 1.5 X lobe lift. no matter what!
Take a look at the angle the pushrod is compared to the lifter itself. there is wasted motion that WILL waste some of you lift.
It's just the nature of the design.
Aka if it is more than 1.5......it's probably a 1.6 rocker(rocker ratios are not exactly the same between brands either.)
This is why B3RE kit is so nice.
 
Cudafever said:
that looks much better. Thought you had some bad electrolyse going on.
If you can feel a groove in the shaft, there bad, in my opinion.
You need a hardened shaft for a roller bearing on the shaft.

I prefer a bushing instead of a roller. Roller tip! just not roller shaft.
If the roller bearing is still good then just get a hardened shaft to go with them.
You need to do this before you install B3RE KIT.
If he tells you different! listen to his recommendations.
Nowone is responding at the moment. So i just gave you my 2 cents:)
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Hmmmmmm well when I ordered this roller rocker assembly, it says hardened shafts.........
 
So I pulled a spring and have a couple other questions.
I don't see a lower spring seat unless what's in the middle is considered one..it has a pretty significant wear groove in it too.

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340Duster247 said:
So I pulled a spring and have a couple other questions.
I don't see a lower spring seat unless what's in the middle is considered one..it has a pretty significant wear groove in it too.

View attachment 1715403994
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The wear on the shafts and the spring shims can be from valve float, whether it be from weak springs, bad geometry, or both. It can also come from improper hardening of the shafts, but with the instability you experienced, my guess is that the lack of control was beating things up. It also should have a proper spring locator under the spring, and not just shims.
 
so that spring is like a stock 340 spring?
coil spring with a damper in side.(flat coiled strap in side of spring. Not a spring damper and inner spring????
 
Let me guess...... Chinese rocker gear?
The shafts may be hardened...... but they don’t appear to be hard enough.

The shims under the springs look like they are the low performance, non-heat treated variety.
When used with aggressive cams and springs that are likely not happy at rpm......that’s what they’ll look like.
The heat treated ones hold up better, but can still get chewed up over time.

A spring seat is needed to eliminate that issue.
Some machining on the heads may be required.

Looking closer at the pics of your rockers and retainers, it appears as though you took it apart before some impending doom.
The highest point of the retainer appears(looks like there are witness marks on both the rocker and retainer...... but I’m just looking at pics on my phone) to have some contact with the area under the rocker by the spring relief cut.
This usually results in the retainer/keepers/valve not staying “locked” together, allowing the them to work/move on the groove in the valve........ until it fails....... and it drops a valve.
 
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BTDT on those so-called 'hardened' shafts and needle bearings. Same result in 1000 miles and never any high RPM's nor anything like valve float and just moderate springs (the Edelbrock heads' standard flat tappet springs). So, the cause is 99% likely just crappy shafts and high point loading from those cheap needle bearing assemblies. The needles are too few and too far spread out for this loading, and if you read up on this type of use, the mfr's of bearings will tell you that this type of reciprocating use is the most severe use for needles as it tends to push all the oil out of the contact area.

Time to junk those; mine were PRW PQ's and yours look the same. I'm converting my PQ rockers to have 2 bronze ring bushings rather than those cheap needle bearing assemblies. I'll try those on another engine.

Meanwhile, the original engine on which these failed in the same fashion as yours got a get of Hughes rockers... solid bore aluminum rockers.
 
PRH said:
Let me guess...... Chinese rocker gear?
The shafts may be hardened...... but they don’t appear to be hard enough.

The shims under the springs look like they are the low performance, non-heat treated variety.
When used with aggressive cams and springs that are likely not happy at rpm......that’s what they’ll look like.
The heat treated ones hold up better, but can still get chewed up over time.

A spring seat is needed to eliminate that issue.
Some machining on the heads may be required.

Looking closer at the pics of your rockers and retainers, it appears as though you took it apart before some impending doom.
The highest point of the retainer appears(looks like there are witness marks on both the rocker and retainer...... but I’m just looking at pics on my phone) to have some contact with the area under the rocker by the spring relief cut.
This usually results in the retainer/keepers/valve not staying “locked” together, allowing the them to work/move on the groove in the valve........ until it fails....... and it drops a valve.
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The rockers were relieved by machine shop and that's what your seeing.
As far as the shims I never installed them. That's the work of the engine builder or what came from edelbrock. I don't know.
 
nm9stheham said:
BTDT on those so-called 'hardened' shafts and needle bearings. Same result in 1000 miles and never any high RPM's nor anything like valve float and just moderate springs (the Edelbrock heads' standard flat tappet springs). So, the cause is 99% likely just crappy shafts and high point loading from those cheap needle bearing assemblies. The needles are too few and too far spread out for this loading, and if you read up on this type of use, the mfr's of bearings will tell you that this type of reciprocating use is the most severe use for needles as it tends to push all the oil out of the contact area.

Time to junk those; mine were PRW PQ's and yours look the same. I'm converting my PQ rockers to have 2 bronze ring bushings rather than those cheap needle bearing assemblies. I'll try those on another engine.

Meanwhile, the original engine on which these failed in the same fashion as yours got a get of Hughes rockers... solid bore aluminum rockers.
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I'm too broke *** to be buying multiple sets of rockers. Thus why I went to the PRW to begin with. I know they are not the best but seen and read others using them with zero issues. I'm open to donations tho lol
 
340Duster247 said:
The rockers were relieved by machine shop and that's what your seeing.
As far as the shims I never installed them. That's the work of the engine builder or what came from edelbrock. I don't know.
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Two things. If your machinist decided to grind on your rockers with that little spring on there, you need a new machinist. That's the number one sign that your geometry is wrong. If the spring is hitting the rocker, that's geometry.

Second, I never, ever run needle bearings on a shaft like that. It's damn tough to get shafts hard enough for that. I run the PRW stainless rockers and they have a bushing. Bushing is best. I don't know why everyone thinks a needle bearing on a shaft like that is the best option. A bushing will take way more load.
 
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