Guide Me Through Manual Steering

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72DMag

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Hi everyone.
Working on a 73 duster drag car. It looks like the previous owner modified the k frame and is running a manual rack and pinion. I found the part number on the rack and its in the pic below. The rack is ran through the front where the sway bar would go. I contacted trw and they dont have any info on this part number.

Can anyone help me identify what rack and pinion this is. I have heard of people using pinto and mustang 2 racks but I have no clue how to identify if this is one of them. Also, the steering column is there a place a part number will be located. Wondering what vehicle that came out of too.

Thanks


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Probably an obsolete number, more pics of the column, etc. may help. So I'm taking the front end has been converted to steering links ahead of the spindles?
 
Hi everyone.
Working on a 73 duster drag car. It looks like the previous owner modified the k frame and is running a manual rack and pinion. I found the part number on the rack and its in the pic below. The rack is ran through the front where the sway bar would go. I contacted trw and they dont have any info on this part number.

Can anyone help me identify what rack and pinion this is. I have heard of people using pinto and mustang 2 racks but I have no clue how to identify if this is one of them. Also, the steering column is there a place a part number will be located. Wondering what vehicle that came out of too.

Thanks


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pics of the entire set up? Did they just slap a rack in there, or relocate to front steer? Either way, the geometry is likely to be off. Pics will help
 
Yeah, probably need pictures of the entire set up before making too many speculations. If it's just scabbed together, the geometry is most likely totally out of spec.
 
Im not back at the shop until this weekend but I will post pics then. thanks everyone!
 
I was able to find the above pics of the rack and pinion on my phone. i don't have a photo of the engine bay though. I can get that this weekend if you guys want it?

If it helps the rack mounting holes are 10" center to center.
 
Yes. Pics of how it bolts in to K frame, where tie rod ends go onto spindles, and steering column from steering shaft end and from wheel end.
 
What are your plans for the car? Does it still have factory spindles on the front? I would be exploring either going back with a factory manual steering setup and repairing and reinforcing the K frame or an aftermarket option. I'm showing Mustang II R&P mounts to be 16 inches apart. I'm thinking that your existing R&P unit is much lighter duty than what it is being used for. Take the steering shaft off of what you got and measure the input shaft diameter and count the splines for us.
 
Yes, the car was running with this setup and a small block but the owner wants to go with a 440 now and fitting the block yet alone the headers with the steering slanted is a pain. Was running the stock front end with the ball joints switched. Tires had no issues. Rack seems fine but I was going to replace tie rods and have no idea what car its off of.

Thanks for the help hopefully I can figure out what this guy has. Helping out a friend.
 
Yes, the car was running with this setup and a small block but the owner wants to go with a 440 now and fitting the block yet alone the headers with the steering slanted is a pain. Was running the stock front end with the ball joints switched. Tires had no issues. Rack seems fine but I was going to replace tie rods and have no idea what car its off of.

Thanks for the help hopefully I can figure out what this guy has. Helping out a friend.

Stock lower ball joints switched so the steering arm faces forward?

Yeah that's an Ackerman disaster. The geometry that results is completely screwed up for turning. On a dragstrip only car guys "get away with it", but anything street going should avoid that like the plague.

Also, if the bottom plate of that K member has been removed so the rack will fit through that K isn't strong enough for street duty anymore.

Looks like a cobbled together mess to me.
 
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Geometry in that is unsafe. Ackerman issues galore. They also likely tried to raise the entire engine as well to clearance that rack. I’ve yet to see a single rack and pinion set up that uses the factory K frame and spindles not have serious Ackerman issues.

I’d scrap that all together. Start fresh. Either swap in the factory set up with a replacement K, maybe more depending on what else was modified. Something tells me they didn’t just stop at the K frame in mods. Or go with something like an HDK, RMS or Gerst if it’s in the budget. I’d lean to saying the Gerst or RMS if going that route, simply due to the unknowns about your front end and the lack of trust in the shock towers. Those two kits mount the coil overs self contained to the K frame and structure. HDK does include bracing which works fine too but since it uses the factory shock mounts, which could be messed with, I don’t know bout that route.

Another option would be the QA1 K frame that uses the factory torsion bar set up.

if you aren’t sure what Ackerman is and why it’s such an issue, let me know, I’ve got a few good YouTube clips that explain it very well.
 
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Yes, the car was running with this setup and a small block but the owner wants to go with a 440 now and fitting the block yet alone the headers with the steering slanted is a pain. Was running the stock front end with the ball joints switched. Tires had no issues. Rack seems fine but I was going to replace tie rods and have no idea what car its off of.

Thanks for the help hopefully I can figure out what this guy has. Helping out a friend.
That rack looks to be off an 80s FWD eco box of some kind.
 
Yes, it cannot be stated enough how much trouble is visible in that front end just from the couple of pics posted. Putting the extra weight of a big block up front is an invitation for disaster.
 
Just responding in regards to weakening the k member. In regards to that I chatted with the individual on here that did the dakota rack and pinion swap. and it mounts very similar to how this duster is setup. I don't see how that weakens it?? Again this is a 95% of the time drag car and I am aware of the ackerman angle and bump steer.

I understand that this is far from stock but lets face it drag racers have done this for years with these cars. Not saying they are the exact setup as this duster but they are very similar.
 
Just responding in regards to weakening the k member. In regards to that I chatted with the individual on here that did the dakota rack and pinion swap. and it mounts very similar to how this duster is setup. I don't see how that weakens it?? Again this is a 95% of the time drag car and I am aware of the ackerman angle and bump steer.

I understand that this is far from stock but lets face it drag racers have done this for years with these cars. Not saying they are the exact setup as this duster but they are very similar.

The stock K is just stamped metal. If you remove a significant portion of the lower stamped piece so a rack fits through, you've weakened it. The structure needs that bottom panel for structural integrity. The K is just like the unibody design of the rest of the car. You wouldn't cut out the floor panel and wonder if you've weakened the car. If you post a picture of the bottom side of that K frame then we might have a better idea of how bad it is. Maybe it's not that bad, hard to say without seeing it.

If you're aware of the Ackerman and bump steer issues, and you still want to run it on the street 5% of the time, shame on you. A car with Ackerman issues like that one has shouldn't be on a public road. The fact that it's been done before isn't an excuse.

A lot of drag racers have done a lot of really dumb things and gotten away with it. Some of them for a very long time even, but the fact that all of them didn't die isn't proof something is a good idea. If you always drive in a straight line, the Ackerman issue isn't so terrible. If you never hit any pot holes and only drive the car a 50 miles a year in 1/4 mile stretches and an occasional trip to Dairy Queen you might not flex your K until it cracks for quite awhile. Start using it on the street with regularity and stuff will start breaking. Just because something works on a drag only car doesn't mean it will work on a street car, and it certainly doesn't mean it will be SAFE on a street car.
 
The stock K is just stamped metal. If you remove a significant portion of the lower stamped piece so a rack fits through, you've weakened it. The structure needs that bottom panel for structural integrity. The K is just like the unibody design of the rest of the car. You wouldn't cut out the floor panel and wonder if you've weakened the car. If you post a picture of the bottom side of that K frame then we might have a better idea of how bad it is. Maybe it's not that bad, hard to say without seeing it.

If you're aware of the Ackerman and bump steer issues, and you still want to run it on the street 5% of the time, shame on you. A car with Ackerman issues like that one has shouldn't be on a public road. The fact that it's been done before isn't an excuse.

A lot of drag racers have done a lot of really dumb things and gotten away with it. Some of them for a very long time even, but the fact that all of them didn't die isn't proof something is a good idea. If you always drive in a straight line, the Ackerman issue isn't so terrible. If you never hit any pot holes and only drive the car a 50 miles a year in 1/4 mile stretches and an occasional trip to Dairy Queen you might not flex your K until it cracks for quite awhile. Start using it on the street with regularity and stuff will start breaking. Just because something works on a drag only car doesn't mean it will work on a street car, and it certainly doesn't mean it will be SAFE on a street car.
Just responding in regards to weakening the k member. In regards to that I chatted with the individual on here that did the dakota rack and pinion swap. and it mounts very similar to how this duster is setup. I don't see how that weakens it?? Again this is a 95% of the time drag car and I am aware of the ackerman angle and bump steer.

I understand that this is far from stock but lets face it drag racers have done this for years with these cars. Not saying they are the exact setup as this duster but they are very similar.

I agree with 72blu and for the record, there’s very few on this site I would trust when it comes to suspension and steering questions and 72blu is one of those.

but I am going to add this, not only shame on you, but you need to consider worst case. If you drive that thing on the street and have to swerve to avoid an object in the road, and those Ackerman issues flare up resulting in you or whoever driving losing control and hitting someone else, injuring or killing them. Or that K frame breaks and sends you into oncoming traffic. Insurance is going to inspect those cars, if they see you hobbled out the K frame and stuck a rack in there in that fashion, they’re gonna start digging deeper. You, as the builder, would be legally liable and possibly criminally. I used to work for one of the big three Insurance companies. I have seen this play out before.

it would cost you just a couple hundred to convert that back to factory with a replacement K frame with factory manual steering and not affect you on the strip at all. But it could not only save you headaches in the future, but also could save someone’s life.

Build a drag car, build it safely for the strip, build a street car, build it safely for the street, if you’re gonna build a street/strip car, then you gotta build it safe for both. Yes, you may give up a tenth or two on the strip, but if you and everyone gets to go home at the end of the day safely, that’s the important part.

I had to make this decision on my dart. It’s a road race build. I ultimately had to make the decision to not purse the fastest car and slow it down a bit if I wanted to safely transport my kids in it and cruise the country with it. Which meant, no roll cage. So I ditched the ideas of full fiberglass front clip and trunk, aluminum floors etc.

funny thing about Ackerman, I’ve seen guys that have trailer queen drag cars doing what you’re doing, they wonder why the sometimes get squirrelly on the track. They start looking and researching and realize that Ackerman could be the issue, the convert to something with better geometry, don’t change anything else and suddenly the squirrel, in predictable launches and landings go away and they pick up several tenths. So yes, bad enough Ackerman can slow you down even on the drag strip.

Decision is all yours. Well and the owner. I just pray everyone lives thru the aftermath of this decision.
 
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Is there a company that offers a k frame for front steer to where I can still use the stock upper and lower control arms and the k frame is spool type mount?

Or using a stock k frame is there a way to do manual rack and pinion with rear steer? Since this isn't my car and I am helping a friend would like to give him options.
 
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The 68 Barracuda in my Avatar uses a complete RMS front suspension, coil over, with a power rack and pinion. It's your life, what is it worth to you and your family?
 
Let’s see the rest of that front end and any other chassis work. What kind of times are you looking at running and is it a dedicated eighth or quarter car? I’m thinking along the lines of SW race cars (blueprints on making your own) or Alston chassis works strut and spindle front subframe.
 
Is there a company that offers a k frame for front steer to where I can still use the stock upper and lower control arms and the k frame is spool type mount?

Or using a stock k frame is there a way to do manual rack and pinion with rear steer? Since this isn't my car and I am helping a friend would like to give him options.

RMS, HemiDenny or Gerst are your options. A coilover conversion is the only way to get the steering geometry with a rack anywhere near decent.

Why anyone is willing to go through all of that just to have a rack and pinion is completely beyond me.
 
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RMS, HemiDenny or Gerst are your options. A coilover conversion is the only way to get the steering geometry with a rack anywhere near decent.

Why anyone is willing to go through all of that just to have a rack and pinion is completely beyond me.
I did it for 3 reasons mainly, weight savings, the rack and pinion, and clearance. We can debate whether it’ll handle better, but I think we’ve done that enough. :rofl:
 
Is there a company that offers a k frame for front steer to where I can still use the stock upper and lower control arms and the k frame is spool type mount?

Or using a stock k frame is there a way to do manual rack and pinion with rear steer? Since this isn't my car and I am helping a friend would like to give him options.
As pointed out, Gerst, RMS, HDK are your best options there. There is pretty much zero way to make the rear steer Mopar spindles have the correct and or safe geometry with a rack. Even flipping them to front steer won’t work, actually makes it worse.

I went Gerst, mounts are spool type. But he supplies them in the kit. I’m not sure what type HDK or RMS uses but judging by the reviews, they are quality. None of these kits will use the factory front suspension components. Tie rods, control arms, drag links pitman arm spindles, all that and more are gone.

your cheapest option is of course going to be to return it to a Torsion Bar set up, all three of the kits we’ve mentioned will set you back about 2500-6000 depending on options you choose.


One last piece of advice, stay away from and avoid Magnum Force’s kit. Lots of bad reviews and failures going around the web.
 
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