367 vs 410 Engines Masters

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I disagree, everything can be reached from the top, distributor in front, oil filter within arm's reach in front and spark plugs are as easy as a small block.

Spark plugs as easy as a small block? Also i can put my headers in.. both sides without moving the motor or any fight at all..

And i have never had a big block car with spark plugs staring me in the face, no header tubes in the way or manifolds.. it doesn't get much easier :)
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@halifaxhops we were just having a discussion... and i was curious.. do you find your 440 in the dart easier to work on and change plugs than a small block? :)
 
45 plus years owning a big block a-body makes it allot easier to work on.
I bet I can change my plugs, swap distributor cap and rotor, and change the oil and filter faster than a guy doing the same to a small block.
Probably be able to set the timing with the extra time. lol
 
45 plus years owning a big block a-body makes it allot easier to work on.
I bet I can change my plugs, swap distributor cap and rotor, and change the oil and filter faster than a guy doing the same to a small block.
Probably be able to set the timing with the extra time. lol

Fair enough.. but i don't agree with you :) Even on my c-body i had to do 2 plugs from the wheel well :)
 
BUT.. i do miss the dist in the front.. and the easiest timing cover in the world to do in the car
 
@halifaxhops we were just having a discussion... and i was curious.. do you find your 440 in the dart easier to work on and change plugs than a small block? :)
Heeeellll no two plugs have to be wrenched from the top and bottom also. Do a :A much easier and prob faster.
 
Problems like these are easily found in a reputable dyno shop. Just sayin...J.Rob

yup.. but it's a temp motor anyway.. just making it drivable for now. i put this one in just to get the car sorted
 
Heeeellll no two plugs have to be wrenched from the top and bottom also. Do a :A much easier and prob faster.
But if displacement is so important isn't that a small price to pay ? Depending on efficiency a 528 with 2.76 gears will be able to put same torque to the ground as a 410 and 3.55, a perfect solution for all you highway guys and 530 hp is basically a mild ish 1 hp per cid away :)
 
I was thinking in relation to this thread how we judge intake and cam changes etc.. that give up bottom end for top end and mostly seen as which do you want more bottom end power vs top end power but regearing for the change is seldom brought up as a solution for both, I think it's a possibility we all know but is seldom bring up in that discussion for why I have no idea. So unless changing gearing rear and or trans is no go. That so call loss of bottom should be easily at least minimized, if top end rpm and especially with a decent power improvement should be no problem.

Now this is a Chev 383 long runner tune port vs short runner point is not engine but the curves.

A lot would see that big loss of torque to be too much even for the power gains and extended rpm gains especially in the street.

Say we got 28" tires a 2.45 1st and 3.55 gears with the long runner now and thinking about switching to the short runners.

If we look at where both engines make 350 hp there about 500 rpms apart 3500 rpm vs 4000 rpm. The 3.55 will turn about 3500 rpms with no converter slip factored in at 33.5 mph for the short runner engine to turn 4000 rpms at 33.5 mph so they both would be making similar hp at 33.5 mph they would now need 4.06 rear gears or a 2.80 1st gear or some combination of different rear and trans gears that made a total 9.95:1 in 1st vs the 8.70:1.

When the long runner engine is at 2500 rpms the short runner 4.06 would be at 2860 rpm making 10-15 more hp than the long runner. They would be both making 400 hp at 38 mph and from then on the short running would dominate it as it would rocket up to it's 50 hp gain, so from 200-400 hp the curves would be similar and above that the short runner would dominate if regeared. That huge torque bump would basically vanish once you factored torque to the ground.

And yes you could run deeper gears with the long runner engine but without the extra rpm and hp to back it up it's just gonna run out of rpm and hp sooner so whatever you run with the longer runner the short runner can go deeper.

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When looking at hp graphs to make comparisons first thing I try to determine is the application. You have basically four categories with some exceptions and overlap. Race cars, Race cars that occasionally are driven on the street, street cars and street cars that are occasionally raced. knowing what the application is for the motor is important to know when making motor and motor part choices. Most times your street driven car guys are not will to sacrifice cruise rpm to gain performance. If they already have gears that are highway friendly they plan on keeping them. If they don't already have some sort of over drive that would allow deeper gears and an acceptable highway rpm then that will be an added expense along with a set deeper gears. So the additional cost will have to be figured in. If it's a race car then different gears are an option as long as the customer is willing te spend the money on the gears. Sometimes you can make a pretty good guess as to if it is a race car or a street car application just from the list of parts used in the engine. Mixing Race car gears with street cars can result in an unhappy customer. There are always exceptions.
 
When looking at hp graphs to make comparisons first thing I try to determine is the application. You have basically four categories with some exceptions and overlap. Race cars, Race cars that occasionally are driven on the street, street cars and street cars that are occasionally raced. knowing what the application is for the motor is important to know when making motor and motor part choices.
True, but got nothing to do with the engines potential, in the case of the 367 not like it's a race engine that operates at crazy high rpms it basically make the same power just 300 rpm higher.
Most times your street driven car guys are not will to sacrifice cruise rpm to gain performance.
Sure but has nothing to do with an engine potential, it maybe a reason why you'd pick one over another, people have tons of reasons and compromises to build or do what they want.
If they already have gears that are highway friendly they plan on keeping them.
Fair enough but still has nothing to do with potential, those are your bias's just X engine suits you better or even the average don't mean engine B hasn't the same potential.
If they don't already have some sort of over drive that would allow deeper gears and an acceptable highway rpm then that will be an added expense along with a set deeper gears. So the additional cost will have to be figured in. If it's a race car then different gears are an option as long as the customer is willing te spend the money on the gears.
Again nothing to do with potential, just personal preferences.
Sometimes you can make a pretty good guess as to if it is a race car or a street car application just from the list of parts used in the engine. Mixing Race car gears with street cars can result in an unhappy customer. There are always exceptions.
They use the same parts, the fact that one needs to run one gear ratio deeper than the other doesn't make it a race car. Sure it might be deal breaker for some but don't change the engines potential.

You realize engines with the same peak hp make the same hp through out say 150-450 hp (and every engine that makes more) 10,000 of thousands of engines of different sizes and rpms make every single hp the others do 150,151,152 etc.. to 447.448,449,450hp the only difference is at what rpms and what curve.

And that's what gearing is for is to match the power to the job and since there limitation our gearing systems some curves will work better than others but there's tons of useful gear and power curves to do the jobs, but why you would pick one over other is more to do with your personal preferences and your compromises your willing and not willing to make. Doesn't change there potential.

To assume your preferences should be universally accepted as the right way for everyone is a little much, to let people know the potential's and there pro's and con's and they can decide for themselves which makes more sense for them.
 
To assume your preferences should be universally accepted as the right way for everyone is a little much,
There not my preferences they are the customers preferences. The customer is who I'm trying to help make good decisions based on their preferences and their application.
 
re spark plug changes on a big block A body, i could do all 8 from up top in front on the 440 in my (narrower bay) 65 dart. the fenderwell headers made it possible but still it was pretty easy. also the above pic (post 301) showing plug access on a small block, most headers i've seen have a tube up and over the rear plugs on the drivers side and they're awkward to get at. those are much better.
neil.
 

There not my preferences they are the customers preferences. The customer is who I'm trying to help make good decisions based on their preferences and their application.
So you know what everyone is looking for ? That's why people on here have built all different kinds of engines. Look at the car talked about the most in the racing section is a /6 car. There is people who like deep gears, high stall and rpms even in the street which neither of those engine are.
 
There not my preferences they are the customers preferences. The customer is who I'm trying to help make good decisions based on their preferences and their application.
Yes if you only want high rear gearing and don't want mess with transmission gearing options (different gears and or trans) and O/D etc.. with low stall especially factory then yes you have a very limited powerbands that will be useful to you. But doesn't change the potential of each engines powerband you just setup a circumstance where there fewer options of available to you that will work better but that your choice and many others like you but there's others that willing to make the whole driveline function as a well balanced machine.
 
Yes if you only want high rear gearing and don't want mess with transmission gearing options (different gears and or trans) and O/D etc.. with low stall especially factory then yes you have a very limited powerbands that will be useful to you. But doesn't change the potential of each engines powerband you just setup a circumstance where there fewer options of available to you that will work better but that your choice and many others like you but there's others that willing to make the whole driveline function as a well balanced machine.
Don't confuse my choices for me with what I might recommend for a customer for his application. Personally I have a 367 that I turn 7400 and currently a 5.83 gear....In my racecar.
 
What I said is the opposite of that.
Not really, notice how you skate around my points and try to make this about something it's not.

I'm the one who started this thread and made it clear (hopefully) what I'm talking about, you want to make this convo about what you want so you can win, I'm just trying to show people an alternative ways to look at the dyno results, so your/their free to look at the info from multiple ways and use that info to figure out what's best for you/them.
 
Not really, notice how you skate around my points and try to make this about something it's not.

I'm the one who started this thread and made it clear (hopefully) what I'm talking about, you want to make this convo about what you want so you can win, I'm just trying to show people an alternative ways to look at the dyno results, so your/their free to look at the info from multiple ways and use that info to figure out what's best for you/them.
So am I.
 
Don't confuse my choices for me with what I might recommend for a customer for his application. Personally I have a 367 that I turn 7400 and currently a 5.83 gear....In my racecar.
So you just be an argumentative dick for no reason acting like you don't understand powerbands and gearing.
 
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