‘67 barracuda heat soak and timing issues

[siberian_squirrel09]

recently got a ‘67 barracuda with a 340 as my first car, had problems with overheating and restarting so i heat wrapped the starter and exhaust pipes but it’s still way too hot, timing is 4 at idle and 17 advance, trying to bring it to 15/16 idle and 32 advance but no wrenches reach the bolt, tried a distributor wrench and it wouldn’t catch, looking for help on heat soak management and the timing issue. it’s also blown up 2 coils, a stock 340 one and an o’reilly replacement so currently have a petronix.

 

[Mattax]

You need a tachometer reading to go with the timing measurements. 5* is low unless its an original distributor in which case it might be correct.

The timing may or may not be related to the engine overheating. Need to see the rest of the advance curve. But yes that is very much worth investigating.

Overheating while stopped or moving slowly is just as likely due to the lack of fan shrould and possibly the distance to the fan from the radiator.
Looks likes like a passenger side water pump, so long snout.

Headers will make the engine bay and floor boards hotter, especially when not moving.

 

[Mattax]

Here's a couple of examples of what factory 340 timing was.

You can see how rpm is really important to knowing if timing is in the ballpark.

Manual shown in this link.

Good Initial Timing and Too much Total Timing Problem. Seeking guidance to minimize total timing. 1969 Swinger 340 4 Gear

I have a 1969 Dart Swinger 340 4 Speed. Recently purchased and trying to uncover and rectify a couple performance gremlins. Have a little bit of background how to check timing. Motor was warmed and idle set to 700rpm. I disconnected the ported vacuum advance and plugged carb port to prevent...

www.forabodiesonly.com

mapping timing vs rpm and comparing to Mopar Performance distributor timing advance.

Mapping my 340 ign curve

Hi So i used an dial up timing light and "mapped" my distributor ignition curve, well, i wrote the timing curve down, not sure how to find a graph to "map" it? 1969 340, 10.5 zero deck, purple 276/284 .444/.453" , #2531894 heads, ld340 intake, mopar electronic dist with "oem black box" and dual...

www.forabodiesonly.com

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

the tach is 4 degrees at 880rpm, 17 at 3300rpm, it’s not an original distributor though

we’re looking to replace the fan with 2 smaller electric ones with a shroud and system so they still run for a short while when the car turns off.

there are headers though we were considering heat wrapping those as well.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

Here's a couple of examples of what factory 340 timing was.
View attachment 1716434611
You can see how rpm is really important to knowing if timing is in the ballpark.

Manual shown in this link.

http://[URL]https://www.forabodieso...969-swinger-340-4-gear.563654/post-1974719998

[/URL]

mapping timing vs rpm and comparing to Mopar Performance distributor timing advance.

http://[URL]https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/mapping-my-340-ign-curve.585360/

[/URL]

thank you, i’ll use this graph when i try to fix it!

 

[Mattax]

the tach is 4 degrees at 880rpm, 17 at 3300rpm, it’s not an original distributor though

I agree that's may low regardless.
Try various wenches. Some of the dual plane intakes make it more diffiuclt and its already a touch spot to access. I can sometmes get a little movement out of a regular combination wrench with an slight offset on boxwrench side. Another approach I use a lot more is one to three 'wobble' extensions on a socket. You should be able to get that screw to loosen.

we’re looking to replace the fan with 2 smaller electric ones with a shroud and system so they still run for a short while when the car turns off.

I'd say that sounds like a good idea but in reality seems to never work. The fans block too much of the radiator and the factroy electric isn't desgned to handle loads with the engine off. Make a shroud for your radiator

there are headers though we were considering heat wrapping those as well.

Certainly will help a little but probably not the main issue. I'm with you on your first assesment. Get the timing in the ballpark. IMO 12 to 15 degrees at 650 rpm would have been a non-smog initial timing for the 340.

 

[Mattax]

thank you, i’ll use this graph when i try to fix it!

Here's the timing I measured on a Chrysler built Mopar Performance Distributor.
It's probably better to compare with since emissions is not the main concern now. Also not sure its a factory cam.

Its pretty similar to the pre-smog timing curves with initial timing of 10 or 12.5* BTDC
It will still play nicely with vacuum advance.

edit. Plotting the two measurements roughly on tha graph in circles and then adding 11 degrees to each shown with arrows.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

I agree that's may low regardless.
Try various wenches. Some of the dual plane intakes make it more diffiuclt and its already a touch spot to access. I can sometmes get a little movement out of a regular combination wrench with an slight offset on boxwrench side. Another approach I use a lot more is one to three 'wobble' extensions on a socket. You should be able to get that screw to loosen.

I'd say that sounds like a good idea but in reality seems to never work. The fans block too much of the radiator and the factroy electric isn't desgned to handle loads with the engine off. Make a shroud for your radiator

Certainly will help a little but probably not the main issue. I'm with you on your first assesment. Get the timing in the ballpark. IMO 12 to 15 degrees at 650 rpm would have been a non-smog initial timing for the 340.

we tried a ‘wobble’ attachment today but i think we need one or two more like you mentioned, it wasn’t nearly long enough to reach.

i’m afraid i have to at least try the electric fans because we’ve already bought them a few months ago and they’re a done deal, we’ve just been waiting for wiring to install though if that doesn’t seem to work i’m going straight to the shroud.

 

[Mattax]

we tried a ‘wobble’ attachment today but i think we need one or two more like you mentioned, it wasn’t nearly long enough to reach.

i’m afraid i have to at least try the electric fans because we’ve already bought them a few months ago and they’re a done deal, we’ve just been waiting for wiring to install though if that doesn’t seem to work i’m going straight to the shroud.

You can really do some damage to the electrics and still not accomplish the initial goal. Yes there will be a loss on the resale but in my opinion its less than the cost of going haead with that plan. There's lots of threads on electric fans and cooling as well as electrical issues from adding electric fans and similar.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

You can really do some damage to the electrics and still not accomplish the initial goal. Yes there will be a loss on the resale but in my opinion its less than the cost of going haead with that plan. There's lots of threads on electric fans and cooling as well as electrical issues from adding electric fans and similar.

i definitely don’t want electrical issues but with taking the proper precautions i’ve heard of people that have done it. i’m just wondering if the shroud would really be enough to keep the engine cool in mid-summer california weather?

 

[Mattax]

here's some folks who have 'been there done that'
There's more.

Electric or not?

OK , I've asked about my cooling system before regarding my current setup. Factory style clutch fan with a cheap electric fan pushing for backup. Car will run at 190 on a hot day but , now I'm wondering , what would be my advantages or disadvantages be if I completely eliminate my clutch fan and...

www.forabodiesonly.com

Big Block Overheating, No Thermostat

New BeeCool 3 core heavy duty rad. Twin fans. Ran hot all the time. . Went to electric pump, Still ran hot. I thought it was air bound so I put a bleeder in the top of the pump pictured. Then I put a recovery and overflow with the moroso cap on the intake to make sure the engine was...

www.forabodiesonly.com

Fan options 318 Barracuda

Just interested in thoughts on fan options. The previous owner fitted an electric fan to the car with a little diy switch and no thermostat link. I'm not keen on electric fans especially when they've been McGyvered in. The shroud on this one doesnt even cover the whole rad. I think the radiator...

www.forabodiesonly.com

Over heating

Dodge 360 over heating when sitting it over heats really fast I have tried everything new radiator, high CFM fans , water pump,thermostat, switch to serpentine belt the motor has Edelbrock aluminum heads holly sniper

www.forabodiesonly.com

Then there is the issue of what it does to the electrical system.
People tap in at the battery but the battery circuit was only made for the battery. Tapping in there puts a constant load on the bulkhead connector and the fusible link and makes the ammeter read wrong. Then they blame the ammeter when stuff melts or the alternator output is messed up.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

here's some folks who have 'been there done that'
There's more.

http://[URL]https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/electric-or-not.585574/#post-1975129022

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forabodieso...block-overheating-no-thermostat.584781/page-2

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forabodieso...options-318-barracuda.580419/#post-1975053847

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/over-heating.577688/#post-1974988657

[/URL]

Then there is the issue of what it does to the electrical system.
People tap in at the battery but the battery circuit was only made for the battery. Tapping in there puts a constant load on the bulkhead connector and the fusible link and makes the ammeter read wrong. Then they blame the ammeter when stuff melts or the alternator output is messed up.

i see what they’re talking about and i’m definitely taking that into consideration, and rethinking the electric fans, though my current fan will slow down if i’m at lower rpm of course and if i’m doomed to sit in loads of traffic everyday, my car will stall and not restart due to the heat soak. i’m super torn on this now but thank you for saving my cars electrical, i wouldn’t want to deal with that issue.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

here's some folks who have 'been there done that'
There's more.

http://[URL]https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/electric-or-not.585574/#post-1975129022

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forabodieso...block-overheating-no-thermostat.584781/page-2

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forabodieso...options-318-barracuda.580419/#post-1975053847

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/over-heating.577688/#post-1974988657

[/URL]

Then there is the issue of what it does to the electrical system.
People tap in at the battery but the battery circuit was only made for the battery. Tapping in there puts a constant load on the bulkhead connector and the fusible link and makes the ammeter read wrong. Then they blame the ammeter when stuff melts or the alternator output is messed up.

i just remembered there’s a fuse box between the battery and the fans, if there’s a problem the fuse will blow and not affect the battery apparently is what i was just told.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Crank it up, and warm her up.
Turn the idle-speed down to ~750rpm, or whatever the engine is comfortable at, but not less than 700, and not less than 10 psi oil-pressure.
now we wait.

Now then,
Keep your IR gun handy.
Keep running water handy, in case you have to mist the rad.
Start it up with the Rad cap off.
Watch for when the stat opens, to see the water begin to circulate.
Watch to be sure the rad is not breathing toxic fumes.
At 200* you can reinstall the cap.
Keep your eye on the temp with the IR gun.

While you got the IR gun there, measure the temp of the water leaving the rad, at or near, the lower hose-nipple, on the METAL part, and compare that to what is going into the rad. The difference should be ~30 or more degrees.
IF YOU do not have that 30 degrees or near to it, STOP!
Something is wrong. Figure it out,
either the water is not circulating, or the fan is not pulling, or the rad is not efficient enough, or the engine is creating excessive heat, or the coolant is not doing it's job, or the belt is slipping; figure it out..

Here is what I shouldda done;
Take all the sparkplugs out,
Take the rocker gear off,
Put the trans in Neutral.
Take off whatever you need to, to get a Torque-wrench on the Balancer bolt, and lets see how much drag the rings are producing.
You can do this now, or you can do this later after you have spent a thousand dollars and and 30 hours, racking your brains on why this is happening to you; or more.

If you don't do the above, which I didn't, then;
Install an 8-vane Pump with an anti-cavitation plate, with a Hi-flo thermostat.
Install the biggest daymn steel fan on there with a Thermostatic Fan-Clutch, inside a shroud, on an overdriven pulley, and get the fan up into the shroud.
Take the bypass hose off and plug it. Then re-install it. Let your heater be the new bypass. If you don't have a heater, then go back to the bypass hose, take the plug out, and install a restrictor instead, one that cannot migrate nor turn sideways.
Install a new belt, and tighten the heck out of it.
Take your Power-Steering belt off.

My problem ended up being too-small ring-gaps, on hypers.
I took the engine out, sent the block out to hone another half a thou into it, then bought a set of File-fit Plasma-Moly rings, and put the tops in at 034 and the seconds at 030. Badaboom, INSTANTLY, my overheat was history.

I took off that big direct-drive fan, in favor of a clutched fan.
I took off the overdrive pulleys and installed slightly underdriven.
I installed a 195 Hi-flow stat.
I retarded my timing to 5*, which dropped my Idle-speed to 500/550 in gear, to parade the car at 3.5mph with a manual trans.
I took the water out, in favor of 50/50 antifreeze.
That big T-clutched fan keeps her at exactly 207*F no matter what the engine is doing.
Midrange-Power went up.
Fuel economy went up.
Idle was stable.
The hole I cut in the hood to deliver fresh, cold, air to the 750DP, was now redundant; daymn! cutting that hole just about broke my heart.

Here are some other things that need doing on your combo;
Do a compression test.
Fix your IDLE-TIMING.
Sync your Transferslots.
Fix your Power-Timing
Fix your Stall-Timing
Calibrate your VA,
Forget the Electric fans.

 

[peedee]

This is the best basic tool to reach the distributor bolt I have had one for the past 45 plus years

 

[4spdragtop]

67 barracuda and 340 here as well. ZERO cooling issues with a factory rad, factory 7 blade FAN and factory shroud.
The rad, fan and shroud are all oem 273 parts.
You've been shown proven fixes/options for the over heat and your adamant about using elec fans.
Good luck.
Oh and your distributor wrench issues....get a box end and bend it.

 

[mygasser]

67 barracuda and 340 here as well. ZERO cooling issues with a factory rad, factory 7 blade FAN and factory shroud.
The rad, fan and shroud are all oem 273 parts.
You've been shown proven fixes/options for the over heat and your adamant about using elec fans.
Good luck.
Oh and your distributor wrench issues....get a box end and bend it.

yep, fitting electric fans instead of adding more timing seems just wrong to me. not getting the right wrench for the dizzy bolt is stupid and a silly excuse. retarded timing increases heat, period.
neil.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

yep, fitting electric fans instead of adding more timing seems just wrong to me. not getting the right wrench for the dizzy bolt is stupid and a silly excuse. retarded timing increases heat, period.
neil.

we’ve gotten the exact wrench recommended and it will not work, planning on bending the wrench to try and get a little more room to turn it

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

67 barracuda and 340 here as well. ZERO cooling issues with a factory rad, factory 7 blade FAN and factory shroud.
The rad, fan and shroud are all oem 273 parts.
You've been shown proven fixes/options for the over heat and your adamant about using elec fans.
Good luck.
Oh and your distributor wrench issues....get a box end and bend it.

unfortunately the electric fans are not up to me, they weren’t my idea nor was i aware they were so risky. i honestly don’t like the idea anymore either. thank you though, i am going to try and bend one.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

This is the best basic tool to reach the distributor bolt I have had one for the past 45 plus years

View attachment 1716434726

that’s the exact one i’m using but it’s not working, we’ll try to bend it, thank you.

 

[Mattax]

Some of the difficulty is just learning to wrench. There's a huge difference from the first times and the fourth, forty and four hundreth time. Early on you figure out different ways to get your body and hands into the location for best advantage, and you try to use your eyes. Later, much later, you instictively work more by feel and figure out the best way to access and are quick to figure out the alternatives.

As fas as the coils go. No idea at this stage why they failed. If they actuall 'blew up' as in expanded and leaking oil, then I'd suspect dwell control or high voltage or leaving the key in run when the engine is not running. Come back to this if it continues to be a problem. The engine bay looks pretty clean but some mods.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

Crank it up, and warm her up.
Turn the idle-speed down to ~750rpm, or whatever the engine is comfortable at, but not less than 700, and not less than 10 psi oil-pressure.
now we wait.

Now then,
Keep your IR gun handy.
Keep running water handy, in case you have to mist the rad.
Start it up with the Rad cap off.
Watch for when the stat opens, to see the water begin to circulate.
Watch to be sure the rad is not breathing toxic fumes.
At 200* you can reinstall the cap.
Keep your eye on the temp with the IR gun.

While you got the IR gun there, measure the temp of the water leaving the rad, at or near, the lower hose-nipple, on the METAL part, and compare that to what is going into the rad. The difference should be ~30 or more degrees.
IF YOU do not have that 30 degrees or near to it, STOP!
Something is wrong. Figure it out,
either the water is not circulating, or the fan is not pulling, or the rad is not efficient enough, or the engine is creating excessive heat, or the coolant is not doing it's job, or the belt is slipping; figure it out..

Here is what I shouldda done;
Take all the sparkplugs out,
Take the rocker gear off,
Put the trans in Neutral.
Take off whatever you need to, to get a Torque-wrench on the Balancer bolt, and lets see how much drag the rings are producing.
You can do this now, or you can do this later after you have spent a thousand dollars and and 30 hours, racking your brains on why this is happening to you; or more.

If you don't do the above, which I didn't, then;
Install an 8-vane Pump with an anti-cavitation plate, with a Hi-flo thermostat.
Install the biggest daymn steel fan on there with a Thermostatic Fan-Clutch, inside a shroud, on an overdriven pulley, and get the fan up into the shroud.
Take the bypass hose off and plug it. Then re-install it. Let your heater be the new bypass. If you don't have a heater, then go back to the bypass hose, take the plug out, and install a restrictor instead, one that cannot migrate nor turn sideways.
Install a new belt, and tighten the heck out of it.
Take your Power-Steering belt off.

My problem ended up being too-small ring-gaps, on hypers.
I took the engine out, sent the block out to hone another half a thou into it, then bought a set of File-fit Plasma-Moly rings, and put the tops in at 034 and the seconds at 030. Badaboom, INSTANTLY, my overheat was history.

I took off that big direct-drive fan, in favor of a clutched fan.
I took off the overdrive pulleys and installed slightly underdriven.
I installed a 195 Hi-flow stat.
I retarded my timing to 5*, which dropped my Idle-speed to 500/550 in gear, to parade the car at 3.5mph with a manual trans.
I took the water out, in favor of 50/50 antifreeze.
That big T-clutched fan keeps her at exactly 207*F no matter what the engine is doing.
Midrange-Power went up.
Fuel economy went up.
Idle was stable.
The hole I cut in the hood to deliver fresh, cold, air to the 750DP, was now redundant; daymn! cutting that hole just about broke my heart.

Here are some other things that need doing on your combo;
Do a compression test.
Fix your IDLE-TIMING.
Sync your Transferslots.
Fix your Power-Timing
Fix your Stall-Timing
Calibrate your VA,
Forget the Electric fans.

i’m currently at an 880 rpm idle, isn’t 750 a little slow?
thank you so much for the advice, i’ll try that soon. that’s so frustrating how something so tiny throws everything off though, i’m glad you got yours figured out!

 

[Mean416]

It's a pain in the *** but keep at it. It may be over tightened. Turn the wrench harder. Make sure you're turning it counter clockwise.

You MUST get the low initial timing sorted out before you do anything else. With timing that low you have tons of fuel being burned in the exhaust and that's gonna make it all super heat soaked and even be dangerous I.e. fire hazards.

 

[Mattax]

that’s the exact one i’m using but it’s not working, we’ll try to bend it, thank you.

drop the box end on the hex head of the bolt and make sure its a snug fit. If not try some other sizes. We can't be sure what was done or used.
As I recall when I've used the two piece distributor wrenches on the LA engines they worked the best when set up in the shape like a giant C. Then stand on a stool or put a blanket on the fender so you can keep downward pressure while pulling.

 

[siberian_squirrel09]

Some of the difficulty is just learning to wrench. There's a huge difference from the first times and the fourth, forty and four hundreth time. Early on you figure out different ways to get your body and hands into the location for best advantage, and you try to use your eyes. Later, much later, you instictively work more by feel and figure out the best way to access and are quick to figure out the alternatives.

As fas as the coils go. No idea at this stage why they failed. If they actuall 'blew up' as in expanded and leaking oil, then I'd suspect dwell control or high voltage or leaving the key in run when the engine is not running. Come back to this if it continues to be a problem. The engine bay looks pretty clean but some mods.

your totally right about the wrench though i will bend it to just get a little more wiggle room.

for the coils they both definitely blew up and were leaking oil, the first was subtle and we just smelled something weird, found it when we got home. the second BLEW up like full huge bang and total stall where with the heat soak we had to wait to get the car started again.