The Green Brick decimates all.
DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?
- Thread starter racerjoe
- Start date
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I guess we will put you down for a ....no
no problem, I'm consider this entertainment and will always be bench racin' to me.....BTW, keep your money, **** ain't getting any cheaper.
See Denny, this is where you lose me. Of course you're "A-Ok" with that. The people that don't understand suspension geometry are the ones buying your kit. You've said before none of your customers ask questions about it.
And that's why I couldn't do what you do. There's no way I could sell a product without analyzing all of that geometry first. But that's exactly what you did. Sold a product for years without even knowing the suspension geometry was worse than what the factory stuff is. I mean no, it's not dangerous or terrible or anything like that. It's realistically not bad or different enough that most people would ever even notice. But the numbers don't lie, and all the numbers anyone has ever posted for an OOTB coil over conversion are worse than a stock system with only a 1" drop.
I mean I think we all know the answer to this. If you set the cars up similarly enough it will be on the driver and the tires.
In the real world two cars are never set up closely enough. With effort put into tuning the geometry won't be different enough to make a significant difference at the kind of events that these cars get used at. I mean, if you grabbed an F1 driver and some real time equipment and had it so ONLY the suspension geometry differences would make the time difference, maybe it would tell you which set up was better for the track you were on that day.
Really, I think the most telling part is not a SINGLE coil over conversion seller actually advertises their out of the box suspension geometry. Not even RMS, and we know Bill Rielly knows how to do it, because his numbers are the ones that we use most of the time for the torsion bar system. If the geometry was slam dunk better, you know he'd publish it.
After that, you can just look at the results of all the competitions. Optima, Moparty, SCCA, whatever. You still see torsion bar equipped cars coming out on top more often than not. And yeah, driver skill, car set up, yada yada blah blah. But if coil overs were hands down better, well, are all their drivers that bad?
Right, a customer, @racerjoe, was the one that finally did some basic geometry analysis. And after doing that, added a 2" extended ball joint to get the camber gain on your system to be SLIGHTLY better than a bone stock torsion bar system lowered 1".
Increasing room? No. Just changing where some of the components fall. They make headers to fit a GIII with torsion bars. In fact, they're the same headers all the guys with coil over conversions use. What's the gain there? Slightly less annoying installation? That doesn't change anything at the track. Every time the header question comes up the guys running coil over conversions say they're running the same headers as everyone else. If it got you some better, cheaper header options then great, but does it?
Dropping nose weight. Yup, covered that too. Like 30 lbs manual to manual, about the same if you compare HDK power to a Borgeson set up. Only the stock power steering is a big jump, but yeah, most people that are building handling cars don't run stock power steering do they?
Adding adjustability? What? The SPC UCA's I run are the same as Joe's. Ride height? No, that's not any better than a torsion bar set up because the ride height is easily adjustable with the factory stuff. Track width is the only thing in your system more adjustable than a torsion bar set up with a good set of adjustable UCA's, and even that isn't all that helpful because it ends up being about the same as what we all run with the factory stuff to clear everything that you have to clear anyway. And the narrower you make the track the worse the geometry gets, so how much of an advantage is that again? The ability to make the geometry even worse?
Yeah, um, 32 years ago.
The 'brick's set up was good for when it was built, but, it's a pretty basic set up. A couple of the first iterations of my Challenger's set up were similar. But compared to how my Duster is set up now? Nope. Just the street tires I run are substantially better than what they used then, and then everything else follows from that. How the green brick was set up is where I would start someone that wants a basic cruiser with decent handling manners.
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Who throws into the pot for all the guys running Mopar suspensions?
45? More like 50-60 now.
Lol, it's older than that right? First introduced in 1957, designed before that. So, minimum 68 and more like 70 years ago. The Forward look car set up was a little different, but not much. Same basic design. They do 73+ swaps for spindles and brakes, it's close enough.
Well I was takin for granted people weren't tryin to autocross in Christine. LOL
I mean, I haven't seen it. But the suspension design is pretty dang close. Heck I even looked at some of those forward look LCA's, they look very much like the '73/74 B body LCA's that allow for more suspension travel than the A-body stuff.
well, that's just great... now i have another thing to add to my vision board.
You're gonna need some BIG torsion bars!
I have no doubt a road race Christine would work. How cool would that be?
...and I wanna say also, I think the HDK kits are probably by far the best at what they offer. I think deciding what factory and aftermarket suspensions can do better than the other is splitting hairs, mainly because the factory design is so dang GOOD, it can pretty much do everything. If you want header clearance, coil overs and a rack and pinion, I think the HDK systems are head and shoulders above the rest. Also, no one can argue the HDK stuff isn't more modern. I don't have enough sense and certainly zero experience with aftermarket suspensions to say what WORKS better. I've done a good bit with the factory design and I can testify to how well it works.
Just one more service I offer.
More modern by how much?
MII suspension is only a couple years newer than the A-body set up. Spring and a shock is a spring and a shock. And the physics of the thing hasn't changed, well, ever.
I meant with the control arms, rack provision, coil overs. All of that IS modern. I didn't say BETTER. Because quite frankly, I just don't know.
Sorry, but I think the "more modern" argument is just silly.
The reality is that the basics for most suspension design happened in the early 1900's. Seriously.
Since then sure, we've got better shock valving, some manufacturing improvements etc, but the basic designs for an unequal length, independent wishbone suspension has been out there for so long that it's pretty hard to argue one variation on it is more "modern". Pinto vs Valiant is a pretty fine distinction.
SixPaksRule
Well-Known Member
Hello Denny
Where is the car with this suspension set up that has been run a couple hundred laps on a road course? I have over 6000 laps on torsion bars......
Where is the car with this suspension set up that has been run a couple hundred laps on a road course? I have over 6000 laps on torsion bars......
Tim aka Racer Joe was not a customer.
I met Tim at MoParty, I recognized his Duster from his posts and thread on FABO but one could not miss how he stood out from the majority of his competitors. I walked over and introduced myself simply 1) because I like to meet my FABO friends and 2) to congratulate him on his skills.
After MoParty, I kept thinking I need to build an Auto-X ride to demonstrate ..... that the OEM suspension is not superior in any way to my HDK, if fact HDK can hold its own and with the other benefits of the conversion, can be a plus for builders that are continuing fighting for room, particularly header clearance, rear steer component clearances, hard to align to more aggressive specs and ease of different Mopar engine swaps. I had plenty of customers with great aspirations of building an Auto -X I could of reached out to, but wanted a non-bias evaluation. As I closed in on turning 70 and reality checked in, I remembered Tim, who (IMO) was in no way in the coil over / rack conversion camp but had mentioned he was planning a Gen III swap. He seemed like he would be a great candidate so I reached out to him.
My offer was simple, try it (on me).......be honest in evaluation, nothing needs to be hid from anyone. If you do not like, especially if it makes you slower, I will send a call tag, (free to post whatever the results are, good or bad) but if you see its advantages and use for a year, it is yours to do whatever you want.
Since he knew what to expect (baseline) with his already tuned OEM suspension and bad-*** small block, he initially kept that engine / transmission combo to verify the HDK was not going to cause him to go backwards. Only then and as he saw the possibilities, did he slip the Gen III in.....with ease.
Engineers have examined HDK products, always amazed at not only the quality but the attention to detail for strength with function. For those in Australia where I have sent numerous products, they are required to go thru extensive examination for certification. Following signed / acknowledged non-discloser statements from all involved, I provided (years ago) samples of all required components along with PDFs with specs for testing. They not only passed but the engineers remarked that they thought they were superior in construction to the OEM components.
As far as lasting performance......20 plus years speaks for itself.
BTW, you guys can talk **** all day (and night) long......my $$$ will always be on the best driver.
Mopar to ya'
Denny
I met Tim at MoParty, I recognized his Duster from his posts and thread on FABO but one could not miss how he stood out from the majority of his competitors. I walked over and introduced myself simply 1) because I like to meet my FABO friends and 2) to congratulate him on his skills.
After MoParty, I kept thinking I need to build an Auto-X ride to demonstrate ..... that the OEM suspension is not superior in any way to my HDK, if fact HDK can hold its own and with the other benefits of the conversion, can be a plus for builders that are continuing fighting for room, particularly header clearance, rear steer component clearances, hard to align to more aggressive specs and ease of different Mopar engine swaps. I had plenty of customers with great aspirations of building an Auto -X I could of reached out to, but wanted a non-bias evaluation. As I closed in on turning 70 and reality checked in, I remembered Tim, who (IMO) was in no way in the coil over / rack conversion camp but had mentioned he was planning a Gen III swap. He seemed like he would be a great candidate so I reached out to him.
My offer was simple, try it (on me).......be honest in evaluation, nothing needs to be hid from anyone. If you do not like, especially if it makes you slower, I will send a call tag, (free to post whatever the results are, good or bad) but if you see its advantages and use for a year, it is yours to do whatever you want.
Since he knew what to expect (baseline) with his already tuned OEM suspension and bad-*** small block, he initially kept that engine / transmission combo to verify the HDK was not going to cause him to go backwards. Only then and as he saw the possibilities, did he slip the Gen III in.....with ease.
Engineers have examined HDK products, always amazed at not only the quality but the attention to detail for strength with function. For those in Australia where I have sent numerous products, they are required to go thru extensive examination for certification. Following signed / acknowledged non-discloser statements from all involved, I provided (years ago) samples of all required components along with PDFs with specs for testing. They not only passed but the engineers remarked that they thought they were superior in construction to the OEM components.
As far as lasting performance......20 plus years speaks for itself.
BTW, you guys can talk **** all day (and night) long......my $$$ will always be on the best driver.
Mopar to ya'
Denny
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congratulations.
just an observation......I been around racers and hot-rodders all my life, most will push you out of the way to try anything new...... always looking. Some don't
your call what camp you are in.
Super-Cuda
MOPAR .. Move Over, Plymouth Approaching Rapidly!
Hey Denny,
First of all, thanks for all the valuable input you have provided over the years. Trust me, there's a whole lot of us who appreciate your opinion as its based upon a lot of years of custom fabrication. Your builds posted on here speak for themselves.
As for these aftermarket systems being built for people who know nothing about suspensions or custom building a car , that's a crock of steaming ****.
There's dozens of members on here using them that know exactly what they are doing and are very well researched.
Personally, I have done all the mods to factory suspension parts including steering box mount (first suggested in Mopar Action by Rick) , larger 11/16 tie rods , reinforced control arms, rewelded and gusseted k-frame, de arched superstock springs, different torsion bars , rear sway bars, different wheel/tire combos and on and on.
So have a lot of members on here who have switched to RMS or HDK .
And.. Guess what?? This wasn't cheap by any means either.
It comes down to this.
Spend a ton of time experimenting with the stock stuff and miss enjoying your ride (especially as you get older) or upgrade (yes, I said upgrade) to either of these incredibly well built and engineered aftermarket systems and still have a car that performs exceptionally well.
So far , all the naysayers on here have only used the stock or modified stock components and have never tried HDK or RMS. There are several, including me who have tried both. You are correct. Its a vast improvement in ride, serviceability, header clearance and performance.
For the record, I built my car in a 20 x30 garage. It is a ground up, nuts and bolt resto mod . I read everything I could find on here including a lot of posts by the guys who modified stock suspensions an those using HDK and RMS. It was an easy choice.
Hats off to the guys who know how to make the factory components work well but trying to diminish the innovators such as HDK or RMS for trying a new approach is very closeminded.
I, for one celebrate their imagination, innovation and tenacity to improve our cars.
Here's what I started with..
Here's the type of cars I play with . I hold my own , even to 100+ MPH.
Roger that and thanks.
on a side note to who is fast?....I have seen guys with the trickest, best engineered, most (dynoed) horsepower and torque imaginable do nothing but get in the way as the ones "with a set" fly by with what they brung. My money is always on the one who knows how to gas it.
NC Engine Builder
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Isn't it amazing that buddy baker was able to run over 200 mph in 1970.... with a 4000 lb B body, on torsion bars, leaf springs, manual chrysler steering and 4 wheel drum brakes. All with a OEM designed suspension.
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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I agree 100% with this
DionR
Well-Known Member
If we are talking racing, I would rather see us compete together against the other makes so that a Mopar/Mopar build wins regardless of the type of suspension.
But the reality is, we aren't talking about (most of the time) any kind of competitive use at all. And I don't see running canyons with Shelby's and Corvettes as "competing". So for most on this forum, the "best" suspension is the one they chose to use as long as it keeps or gets their car on the road.
There have been some builds that have competed against the other makes in some bigger series, though. One was the Valiant on TB's in CAM-T (I think?) that was very competitive despite being way down on power. Another I think of is the guy on here with the blue and black Duster that was friends with the owner of RMS, hasn't been active for years. He started on TB's in some kind of national event (maybe Optima?) and wasn't competitive. He ended up with RMS kits front and back and (I think) still wasn't competitive. But maybe he was more competitive than I know, just reading between the lines with him.
I would love to see someone build a car and be competitive in something like the Optima series or maybe the CAM classes again. There is the yellow Super Bee that won the Vintage class at Moparty and made it into the Optima Invitational at SEMA last year. He was on a full QA1 coil over setup but has now swapped to full SpeedTech kits front and back. There is also the orange Cuda that started the SpeedTech chassis design for Mopars and runs in the Optima stuff. He is also good enough to get into the SEMA invitational as well.
The big issue (besides time/money) with getting into those big series is that the competitors in the other makes aren't running a stock type suspension in any way, in the older cars. This makes sense in the fact that most of the older cars from the other manufacturers didn't have a good suspension design so they had to do something. But the biggest difference now (IMO) is most are running a 315/30R18 tire. If you can't stuff that under the fenders, I think you will be a back marker. Guess what the SpeedTech chassis did for the Yellow Super Bee, it allowed the guy to run a 315. To try and keep up, you are going to probably have to move frame rails around so those tires fit. So it's more than just a new suspension in those cases, it's a new chassis. And while you are at it, make sure you look at things like scrub radius, SAI, roll center (both instant and active), jacking, roll couple, CG, etc. etc. Because I bet the guys at places like SpeedTech did exactly that as well.
But the ultimate prize wouldn't just be to be competitive in a vintage class at one of those bigger venues, but to be competitive with the late model iron as well. Which isn't impossible, there is a '70-ish Camaro that won the Optima overall several times, but with all the tricks like a SpeedTech chassis, mega HP, ABS, etc. And the new stuff just keeps advancing, I guess the Dark Horse has brake by wire now? And the top dog at Optima the last several years has been a tricked out AWD GTR.
For me, I've give up on the dream of building a car for something like the Optima series and instead just want to enjoy driving it. I don't have any events out my way to compete in anyways. I couldn't even find anyone autocrossing up here. There is a road course at the local track, but an open road course day is like $300. That might be cheap if you have the funds to drop on a $5K suspension kit, but this poor boy is working overtime to repurpose OEM computer modules to avoid spending $250-350 on an aftermarket PDC and fan controller. So right now, it ain't in the cards.
Maybe someday I will road trip it to Moparty and maybe see how it stacks up, but the reality is I'm not sure I care anymore as long as it feels like it drives more like a modern car to me.
But the reality is, we aren't talking about (most of the time) any kind of competitive use at all. And I don't see running canyons with Shelby's and Corvettes as "competing". So for most on this forum, the "best" suspension is the one they chose to use as long as it keeps or gets their car on the road.
There have been some builds that have competed against the other makes in some bigger series, though. One was the Valiant on TB's in CAM-T (I think?) that was very competitive despite being way down on power. Another I think of is the guy on here with the blue and black Duster that was friends with the owner of RMS, hasn't been active for years. He started on TB's in some kind of national event (maybe Optima?) and wasn't competitive. He ended up with RMS kits front and back and (I think) still wasn't competitive. But maybe he was more competitive than I know, just reading between the lines with him.
I would love to see someone build a car and be competitive in something like the Optima series or maybe the CAM classes again. There is the yellow Super Bee that won the Vintage class at Moparty and made it into the Optima Invitational at SEMA last year. He was on a full QA1 coil over setup but has now swapped to full SpeedTech kits front and back. There is also the orange Cuda that started the SpeedTech chassis design for Mopars and runs in the Optima stuff. He is also good enough to get into the SEMA invitational as well.
The big issue (besides time/money) with getting into those big series is that the competitors in the other makes aren't running a stock type suspension in any way, in the older cars. This makes sense in the fact that most of the older cars from the other manufacturers didn't have a good suspension design so they had to do something. But the biggest difference now (IMO) is most are running a 315/30R18 tire. If you can't stuff that under the fenders, I think you will be a back marker. Guess what the SpeedTech chassis did for the Yellow Super Bee, it allowed the guy to run a 315. To try and keep up, you are going to probably have to move frame rails around so those tires fit. So it's more than just a new suspension in those cases, it's a new chassis. And while you are at it, make sure you look at things like scrub radius, SAI, roll center (both instant and active), jacking, roll couple, CG, etc. etc. Because I bet the guys at places like SpeedTech did exactly that as well.
But the ultimate prize wouldn't just be to be competitive in a vintage class at one of those bigger venues, but to be competitive with the late model iron as well. Which isn't impossible, there is a '70-ish Camaro that won the Optima overall several times, but with all the tricks like a SpeedTech chassis, mega HP, ABS, etc. And the new stuff just keeps advancing, I guess the Dark Horse has brake by wire now? And the top dog at Optima the last several years has been a tricked out AWD GTR.
For me, I've give up on the dream of building a car for something like the Optima series and instead just want to enjoy driving it. I don't have any events out my way to compete in anyways. I couldn't even find anyone autocrossing up here. There is a road course at the local track, but an open road course day is like $300. That might be cheap if you have the funds to drop on a $5K suspension kit, but this poor boy is working overtime to repurpose OEM computer modules to avoid spending $250-350 on an aftermarket PDC and fan controller. So right now, it ain't in the cards.
Maybe someday I will road trip it to Moparty and maybe see how it stacks up, but the reality is I'm not sure I care anymore as long as it feels like it drives more like a modern car to me.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I think if someone were to try and actually modernize the suspension, they need to look at using a modern knuckle. Get away from the Pinto spindle, and go to a knuckle with a bolt on hub. Probably have to be a Corvette knuckle or a new design of some type. Isn't that what XV Motorsports used?
Maybe even try and use some of the new stuff like dual LBJ's to get the SAI higher and the scrub radius lower.
Full disclosure, how those dual lower ball joint setups work still boggles my mind. I've just read the reason for them is to move the lower pivot out to where a single ball joint couldn't be placed. And I know from the stuff I have messed with in the last several months, it would be nice to do just that because moving the UBJ in to increase SAI and reduce scrub radius creates it's own set of problems.
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