What the F@#& was chevy thinking?

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I friend had the heater core go out on his '03 Z71, TEN hours book time! Had to remove the entire dash to get to it. I could remember about 12 years ago working at the dealer and being able to swap an auto. trans. in any F-series truck in about 6 hours. Seems like the manufacturers are making things more and more difficult so you have to use them to fix it. Makes you wonder how much longer are we going to have the small independent shops with all the specialized tools and equipment you need for even simple repairs.
 
pettybludart said:
The day of the ..Backyard Mechanic,s are gone,unless you know what your doing(licenced).They were all designed to be brought to the dealership for any work/repairs.
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I disagree. With the new CAN-Bus (controller area network) on newer cars, the amount of self diagnosis is astounding, if you have the tool to interface (mere OBD II scanners are like a ball peen hammer). As for disconnecting an engine mount to change the spark plugs, I don't see that as such a big deal, even working in a driveway. You only need to do it every 100k, anyhow.
Pulling an engine (or drivetrain) to remove the oil pan. Some cars are like that. Sometimes you can get by with lifting the motor only part way out. The books definitely don't always give the easiest procedure.
 
ever try rebuilding one of them northstars... the one time I did it I looked at a five day job, ten hours a day (some of it waiting on special inch long thread-serts for the head bolts.) and the customer was looking at a very LARGE bill!

The shop I work at, tries to gently persuade people with those to, erm... get rid of them

And thats not chevy... that's cadillacs engineers, you know the ones who designed the new camaro and made it look like a cadillac???
 
Wow! Are you sure theres not AN EASIER WAY? I mean that many jobs in the "books" can be short cutted and save at least 1/2 of the labour.Maybe not on a GM?

My 00 Caravan for example; Diff inspection plate was leaking but instead of taking off everything I just simply remove all bolts but one from the girdle,rotate out of my way and get to work. Much easier than removing mounts etc like the book says. Was going to have a mech do it on when we were on holidays but I just know he was looking to "pad" the bill.

I did it myself yesterday in less than 1/2 hour.

Ooops! That sounds like Im accusing you of padding the bill.Not so. Just wondering if there is a better way.
 
ocdart is the intrique the one that has the 3.5 v6? the one we call the baby northstar? those are a real pain... if not EVERY one of the 3.1 3.4 and 3.8 front wheel drive chevy cars (buick century, pontiac grand am for example) need the front mounts removed and the engine rocked to change the back plugs.

In fact try doing plugs on a 4th gen GM f-body... 3 of the rear plugs you need a lift for, or have to like being on your back to do.
 
I think it has to do with build tecniques on the assembly lines. Simpler to make the car but a pita to maintain down the road.
 
needsaresto, there isn't an easier way, unless you want to cut out the cross member under the engine, and only if you're REALLY confident in your welding ability to put it back together good and solid.

NOW, if I'm not mistaken the 4.6 litre cadillac motor, the one before the northstar, the upper oil pan was held in place by the head bolts, yeah, they go all the way thru the head thru the block and into the oil pan...

Cadillac is GMs biggest screw up, dont know why they didn't kill that division and not pontiac
 
As StrokerScamp said..."Some of those engineers I always thought need to be shot."

I disagree.

They should be made to do ALL the repairs on ANY vehicle they design before it gets shoved off the assembly line.

My favorite Mopar gripe...
Small block vs. big block water pumps, esp. with A/C.

GM.. my bosses 89 Pontiac Fireturd fuel pump (in the tank).
Drop exhaust, rear suspension, heat shield and then the tank.
Solution: Lift carpet under hatch, cut access panel in floor,done.

I simply hate the fact the everybody is stuffing 1/2 the engine under the cowl.
 
WOW!Deja Vu!I just helped my brother fix an oil pan on a Cadi with a NorthStar and yep,same thing as you.We had to tear out the drive train.I also did one on a Blazer and had to remove the front end pieces,pain in the ***.
 
We did an oil pan gasket on a G6 with the 3.5...Wouldn't be so bad if the trany didn't have a worthless tab that hung over the the oil pan. If it was my car I would have cut the tab off and been done with it.
 
ocdart said:
It's not just Chevy or Cadillac. My wife's daily driver is a '98 Olds Intrigue. I couldn't believe it the first time I went to replace spark plugs and couldn't get a wrench setup on the back 3 plugs of the transverse mounted V6. I finally gave up and took it to a local shop to replace those plugs. The mechanic told me you have to disconnect the motor mounts and rock the engine forward in order to get adequate access to the back plugs.
That's insane!
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the intake manfold has to come off of my Stealth to do the back 3 plugs.

it still has the original ones.
 
i work on stuff like that everyday... exhaust manifolds on chevy/gmc truck where the bolts break in the heads making a leak.. manifolds on ford triton, transmission on audi's, turbos on vw, plugs on the ford under every coil pack, head gaskets on gm 3.1 3.4 3.8. few motors in vw/nissan where engine and trans come out from bottom with k frame undone and then take it apart that way. done so many head gaskets in calivers, escorts and neons not even funny. wiring harness problems in most new stuff. clutches in 4x4 trucks...

heat cores suck..... every car now a days the entire dash has to come out...

ive done harder and easier stuff to. but its nothing like working on a old cuda or duster where a few wires make it run and simple parts. there is no more back yard mechanic i learn as i go, i have no schooling under me other then being in my dads shop since 12 until now (22) and research online.

tomorrow my job is to change a front driver side frame rail on a 2000 dodge van from behind strut rod brace to the core support. customers is rotted to the point steering box is ready to fall off.

you have to do what you have to do. my dad just about never turn down work. money is money
 
95teetee said:
the intake manfold has to come off of my Stealth to do the back 3 plugs.

it still has the original ones.
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hey the intake comes right off them.. about 20 mins its the top long bolts, theres a brace on the back side and a few others... ive done alot of tune ups in stealths and sebrings with that v6 i think 2.7 ithink
 
ohh one more i can think of.. to change a motor in a 4.3 s10 5 speed u have to pull the tranny out then the motor... you cant pull the motor far enough away from 5 speed because oil pan hits the front frame/differential
 
gts340 said:
We had a Ford E series ambulance with a diesel in it that blew out the pan gasket. Had to remove the engine on that one to do it too. Imagine getting a diesel out of a van.
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We have the Diesel in our Ford van school bus` and believe it or not if you pull the trans and raise the engine front and back we do the pans in them without pulling it. The dealer was shocked to hear we leave the engine in.
 
floivanus said:
ocdart is the intrique the one that has the 3.5 v6? the one we call the baby northstar? those are a real pain... if not EVERY one of the 3.1 3.4 and 3.8 front wheel drive chevy cars (buick century, pontiac grand am for example) need the front mounts removed and the engine rocked to change the back plugs.

In fact try doing plugs on a 4th gen GM f-body... 3 of the rear plugs you need a lift for, or have to like being on your back to do.
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I've got the 3.4 in my 2002 Grand Am, I changed the plugs with no problem other then laying over the motor and blindly screwing in the back ones by hand. The motor isn't too bad, it has about 150,000 on it and is still running ok. The biggest problem is the intake gasket leaks. It's been fixed twice. You have to get the intake gasket surfaces milled for a true flat surface. Now the rest of the car is a POS! I've been through 2 master cyl's a steering rack, power steering pump and speed sensor, tie rod ends, a gazillion front rotors (we live in the hills) various relays, fuel pump,fuel pressure regulator,gear shift selecter came apart in the console..on and on! I learned alot about fuel injection working on that beast. I know why Pontiac was put out of it's misery.
 
Changing the rear plugs on my 2000 Caravan with 3.8 is no better. All 3 on the back side are blind and by touch only.Frustrates the hell out of me cuz my finger tips are numb from M.S. Best thing to do is stick a chunk of vacuum hose to the plug insulator and use it to thread the plug in.Works pretty slick.

At least I now know the Caddy is unfriendly to work on. Never woulda bought one anyways,lol!
 
ALL of the auto companies are trying to pump up business in their dealership network.... dealerships do not make real money selling cars....in fact some dealers take losses on new car sales given the interest rates they are charged!! the "real money" is made repairing them and sorry to the engineers no insult intended...but planned obsolescence and so called fuel efficiency based vehicles are not meant to be, nor are they designed to be repaired by their owners or small shops....they are designed to be brought back to the dealer of choice for repair!!! along with planned obsolescence what you are seeing is "directed repair" meaning only properly trained properly "tooled" mechanics can effect your repair....and the tools they require to do that are deliberately very expensive, meaning only a shop that is doing 10 or 12 per day can afford them!
This is not NEW, it is simply encompassing more aspects and parts of the new/newer vehicles...and it is NOT limited to Cadillac or domestic manufacturers, the imports have been doing it for years!!!
The ONLY way to fix this....is to write letters, pull a ***** fest on the manufacturer of choice and just keep doing it...start a thread, get a couple o hundred people to do it...maybe they can get each get a couple o hundred.....eventually they might listen, unlikely but possible. Our Govt is on the side of the manufacturers!! when sales went down, they urged us to BUY NEW by offering incentives and the incentives were NOT aimed at domestic manufacturers, they were for ANY new car!!! Golly was that REALLY meant to get "clunkers" off the roads?? or was that just a ploy to spur the overall spending of money as the cars bought then get older....repairing them will require lots of spending and lots of tooling!!!!
things that make you go HMMMMMMMM!
n joy
 
ocdart said:
It's not just Chevy or Cadillac. My wife's daily driver is a '98 Olds Intrigue. I couldn't believe it the first time I went to replace spark plugs and couldn't get a wrench setup on the back 3 plugs of the transverse mounted V6. I finally gave up and took it to a local shop to replace those plugs. The mechanic told me you have to disconnect the motor mounts and rock the engine forward in order to get adequate access to the back plugs.
That's insane!
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Used to have a 89 Taurus SHO. Had to remove intake to get to rear plugs on it. Current DD is 95 S-10. Have to remove front tires and disconnect steering shaft to change plugs. Engine had to come out to change oil pan gasket. Exhaust manifolds had to come off to remove upper control arms to replace bushings. Setting timing requires tearing apart the interior to get to the computer to disconnect the timing wire.
 
Evan Pratt said:
Mopar rules, chebby sucks.
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Mopar has it's own stupid ****... I have an '03 Ram Cummins. I lost the right brake light and turn signal on my trailer and camper. Went to look for a fuse or relay. Found out that the trailer circuit does not have replaceable components. They are part of the IPM Integrated Power Module which costs $500!

Ended up tieing into the main lighting system. I figured if it blew a fuse or relay at least I could replace it!
 
racerkilla said:
ohh one more i can think of.. to change a motor in a 4.3 s10 5 speed u have to pull the tranny out then the motor... you cant pull the motor far enough away from 5 speed because oil pan hits the front frame/differential
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When I did my buddies 4x4 S-10, I pulled the fan and rad, then pulled motor and tranny out thru the hood as a unit, then seperated them on the ground. Went back in same way. Be sure to pull distibutor of you'll crack the cap against the cowl. Helps that I had an overhead hoist. I doubt most cherrypickers will go high enough to do it this way.
 
hey now, I've done a motor in a 99 gmc Jimmy and I seperated the motor from the trans to do it... kind of a tight fit, but with the motor mounts that chevy uses, they all seem to be.
 
Wow!! That's crazy. I've never heard much about Caddy's but after seeing this I'll definitely stay away from them.

My wife bought a new Pontiac G6 last year (against my wishes). After opening the hood and looking things over I told her it better not break cause she's taking it to the dealer to get worked on. With less than 20,000 miles on it the drivers side seat is showing wear and she only weighs 101 lbs. I'd hate to see what it'd look like if the driver was heavy. The radio finish is coming off too. And the other day I noticed the door seal is coming apart. It's going back to the dealer but what a POS
 
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