slant 6 ignition problem !!

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elvaliant66

elvaliant66

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so the other day i go to start my car. i turn the key and nothing the starter didnt even go off. so i thought it might of been the ignition switch..as i go to pull it out my car starts trying to turn on(without the key in) and i start seeing and smelling smoke coming out under the dash/gauge cluster. any ideas what it could be? im thinking maybe the positive and negative wires going to the back of the alternator gauge? ...maybe could of fried . i just want a good enough idea so i kinda know where to start looking.
 
THIS one could be trouble.

How does the harness appear, look over what you can see, under the hood, flashlight under the dash, examine the bulkhead connector

Look for melted spots

Feel up under the dash with your hand, feel for the ammeter connections, are they loose?

What does / does not work?

Do head/ tail lights work OK?

Turn switch to accessory, does heater blower, radio work?

(Don't push this, if you see or smell smoke, turn it off and unhook battery)

You have a shop manual or wiring diagrams?

First thing I'd do after looking over harness for damage, is pull apart the bulkhead connector and examine that.

There are a few circuits in the car THAT ARE NOT FUSED

The big wires from the battery and alternator are not fused except for a fuse line

The big supply wire to the ignition switch and headlight switch is not fused. Their only protection is the main fuse link

NOTHING coming OUT of the ignition switch is fused, except the feed going TO the fuse box, and of course from there you have fuses

You have the dark blue ignition buss, feeds ignition and regulator, NOT fused

You have the brown coil resistor bypass from igniton switch, NOT fused

You have the yellow "start" wire feeding to the start relay NOT fused.

THE LAST would be something to check. Because you say it cranked "with no key" it's possible that the relay has corroded, stuck or even disintegrated internally. So it may have welded the contacts shut somehow and shorted the yellow start wire to ground.

I'd be looking at the start relay. You can get them open. Take a screwdriver/ side cutters and bend the tabs out and pull the guts out of the can.
 
yea the ignition switch or how ever its called lol. where u put the key in. ill put my key in and turn it so its at the accessories position. but the needle on the gauges wont even go up and my lights dont work either. so im in the process under the dash looking for any fried wires. havent seen any yet...but does anyone know what could be the problem? anyone have a link to the dash harness diagram?
 
thanks alot 67dart273. cant wait to get home from work and get started. and no i dont have a diagram .ive been looking all over the web but cant find a legit one
 
elvaliant66 said:
thanks alot 67dart273. cant wait to get home from work and get started. and no i dont have a diagram .ive been looking all over the web but cant find a legit one
Click to expand...

I assume from your username that it's a 66 Valient?

HERE:

is our own shop manual download thread:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=132309&highlight=manual,+download

and on that thread you can download a 66 shop manual:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/servicemanuals/1966_Plymouth_Service_Manual.zip

HERE are wiring diagrams:

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

These two right here:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1966/66ValiantA.jpg

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1966/66ValiantB.jpg

Sounds like you have a problem in the main feed/ ammeter circuit

FIRST inspect harnesses for burned/ melt/ damage

NEXT pull apart bulkhead connector and look for damage

Inspect the fuse link, from the starter relay to the bulkhead for damage.

Get yourself a meter and test lamp if you don't have one

It is also possible that the connections at the ammeter are bad, loose, corroded, broken inside the molded end terminals, or even something wrong in the ammeter itself. In the "MAD" diagram, see the "welded splice"? These do fail, and since your headlights don't work the suspects seem to be:

The main fuse link
The bulkhead connector
The ammeter and connections
The welded splice (taped up in harness under the dash) Check it last

READ this excellent article. I'm not suggesting you "do" the bypass just yet, but this article gives a nice overview of how these old cars "work" in this area:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

from this website:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml

From that article, here is a simplified wiring diagram of the main battery feed, charging, and ammeter circuit

amp-ga18.jpg


Here are some screenshots out of the 66 shop manual I posted above. They do NOT use the correct page numbers, you have to "diddle" with them. These are around page 300 or so, the Valiant engine bay and "under dash" wiring:

ml2o80.jpg


dcq3np.jpg


33pbl3m.jpg
 
I would be tempted to pull gage cluster for easy access to all wires passing over steering column, attaching to gages, headlight switch, and fuse block. This is where 80% of the melting will occur. The other big cluster is at wiper and ignition switch.

If I had to guess, whatever shorted out caused the fusible link between battery and bulkhead connector to do its job; open the main circuit supplying dash area.

Something melted, and you have to locate and repair it before reconnecting the battery, or the fire gods won’t give you a second chance.
 
so i did find the problem and sure enough it was the fusible link. so i repaired it. and now when i connect the positive cable to the battery..it sparks witch means theres something grounding? when i lay in the dashboard thats when the spark happens. but if i pull out the gauge cluster so its not touching anything it doesnt spark. and i can turn on the car...i checked the harness to see if there was a wire touching or anything but i cant seem to find the problem...
 
You are getting close...

Something is touching ground somewhere; examine every wire for compromised insulation. Look for melted insulation, chafed insulation around and over steering column, wiper linkage etc. Sniff for burnt smell. You need to run your fingers over each wire after it has been unwrapped from harness.

Look over headlight switch connections and all conductors going to it. Pay attention to lugs on back of amp gage, those are a direct connection to battery. Check factory taped splices, and rewrap with the good tape; 3M 33, anything else won’t stay fast for very long.
 
elvaliant66 said:
so i did find the problem and sure enough it was the fusible link. so i repaired it. and now when i connect the positive cable to the battery..it sparks witch means theres something grounding? when i lay in the dashboard thats when the spark happens. but if i pull out the gauge cluster so its not touching anything it doesnt spark. and i can turn on the car...i checked the harness to see if there was a wire touching or anything but i cant seem to find the problem...
Click to expand...

The SAFE way to check this, IE to not burn something up, is to unhook the battery ground, and "rig" a big test lamp. Depending on what I'm doing, I sometimes use an old headlight, or in your case, a stop lamp should work well. "Rig" the stoplamp in series with the battery ground cable.

That way, If there is a short, it won't burn anything up. If the panel causes a spark, and the test lamp won't light, you need a SMALLER test lamp. So if the stop lamp won't light, step down to your "standard" 12V test lamp in a probe.

This is probably not a big load, otherwise it would burn something up and start smoking.

First, disconnect the ammeter wires, hook them together with a small bolt, and tape them up, and see if that affects the problem.

Next, pull the noise supression condenser (capacitor) lead off from the voltage limiter.

After that it's a matter of elimination one at a time. Remove the voltage limiter and try that.

I don't suppose you have a clock in the cluster?
 
so when i have the gauge cluster a little out (not touching any metal) i can put my positive cable on the battery. and when i do so the light where it reads 60mph is on. wich means that my high beams are on but i dont have the light switch on. and that light should only be on when i have my light switch on and the high beams.. right? electrical is such a pain in the asss!! but i feel im getting closer and closer.someone know whats going on there?
 
can they get fried without damaging the wiring? i checked all the wiring going to the highbeam switch and the dimmer switch they seem fine no sign of being fried
 
and when i do so the light where it reads 60mph is on.
Click to expand...

Somewhere that high beam indicator light circuit is being energized by coming in contact with 12v. Follow its wire from gage cluster, and examine the head light switch connections for burned connections.
 
Disnt quite read all the posts but mine did the same thing except i started to pull apart my column a.d the harness on my fire wall lit up fusible link melted and fried everything now i need to do all my woring again cause each wire melted once i got my column apart i noticed it shorted out in there somehow
 
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