Reverse shift problem

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canyncarvr

canyncarvr

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I am SURE there are questions for which I won't have the answers, but..'ya never know until you ask!

Subject: '73 340 Duster with a '69 drive train, 4sp

The '69 motor/trans came out of a '69 340 Dart. The transmission was a hemi model with the large(r) main shaft.

Having banged on that tranny for several years of bracket racing, it developed some problems that I chose at the time NOT to fix, but to just swap in a different 4sp. The current trans has a smaller main shaft. It took a different prop-shaft. Sorry...don't recall the spline count/U-joint size and all.

The problem is the car's orginal Hurst Comp shifter has a problem shifing into reverse on the 'new' transmission. There isn't enough throw. It does engage when shifted into reverse..but barely. Remove the shift rod when the shifter is in reverse and the trans lever will move farther rearward a good bit.

An obvious question is, 'which linkage did you use with the 'new' trans? The hemi-sytle or the 'new' style?'

Good question. Sorry...but I don't recall THAT for sure, either. I think I kept the '69 shift rods on the 'new' (smaller) trans. I don't know that matters..but there's a lot of geometry going on with lever lengths, rod bends and such.

Oh...the OEM Hurst Comp shifter does not have shift stops. I don't think a shifter WITH shift stops has a stop for reverse anyway...but adjusting a stop isn't an option.

Maybe someone has done this tranny swap with a 4sp and KNOWS what's going on..in which case, I'd be happy to hear about it.

Thanks!

MyDuster.jpg
 
The out put shaft should be the same size on both 4spds. It is a 4spd and not a later model OD? As far as reverse, your eather in or out, is there some binding in the trans(can you get it in by hand)? The linkage is the same even the OD stuff will work.
 
Make sure those stop bolts on the shifter itself are not stopping it from going all the way forward. I recently switched shifters and found that was the problem with the old shifter someone had replaced the stop bolt (and jam nut) with a longer bolt so I was not getting the shifter to move far enough to throw it into gear.
 
jaws said:
The out put shaft should be the same size on both 4spds. It is a 4spd and not a later model OD? As far as reverse, your eather in or out, is there some binding in the trans(can you get it in by hand)? The linkage is the same even the OD stuff will work.
Click to expand...

It's not..the same size, I mean. I have two differently sized prop-shafts specifically for the swap.

It is a 4-sp. The 'new' 4-sp was supposedly OUT of a '73. I didn't see the car, though.

Uh...no. You are not 'in..or out' of reverse. If the shift lever on the trans is prevented from full movement, you can (and I do) catch just an 'edge' of the cluster/mainshaft gears with the reverse gear. The car does move in reverse, but a bump or a nudge to the shifter will knock reverse OUT of engagement.

There is no bind in the tranny. It will shift by hand just fine. It is the shifter not moving far enough OR some other limited issue of 'throw' that is the problem.


Oh...there is no adjustment to 'more' throw to the shifter. IF the reverse rod adjustment is shortened (reverse shift lever forward..so 'more' movement to the rear of the car when shifted into reverse), then the neutral gate doesn't line up.

mopardude62 said:
Make sure those stop bolts on the shifter itself are not stopping it from going all the way forward. I recently switched shifters and found that was the problem with the old shifter someone had replaced the stop bolt (and jam nut) with a longer bolt so I was not getting the shifter to move far enough to throw it into gear.
Click to expand...

I recall NO stop bolts on my shifter. Maybe that is an incorrect recollect.

Was your '..not..far enough to throw it into gear.' a reverse gear situation?

Looking at a pic of a Comp+ Hurst on the web, I see two stops. Those are 2&3 gear stops?

Criminy..except for replacing the starter just this past week, it's been so many years since I've worked on my A-body, I'm afraid I've 'misremembered' too much stuff!
 
Did you reuse the levers from the other trans? This is a Hurst install kit (although for a "B" body, only pic i could find). Notice it comes with 2 reverse levers. The one with the rod hole closer to the pivot will give more lever movement with the same rod movement...........just a thought.
 

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OldmanRick said:
Did you reuse the levers from the other trans? This is a Hurst install kit (although for a "B" body, only pic i could find). Notice it comes with 2 reverse levers. The one with the rod hole closer to the pivot will give more lever movement with the same rod movement...........just a thought.
Click to expand...
X2 . You need the short lever!
 
OldmanRick said:
Did you reuse the levers from the other trans? This is a Hurst install kit (although for a "B" body, only pic i could find). Notice it comes with 2 reverse levers. The one with the rod hole closer to the pivot will give more lever movement with the same rod movement...........just a thought.
Click to expand...

OldmanRick, I didn't think about the two diffrrent levers for reverse. Is the Hemi box out of a B body, and the other out of an A body? Can you get some pics to help us see what your seeing?
 
jaws said:
Is the Hemi box out of a B body, and the other out of an A body?
Click to expand...

The larger shafted trans is out of a '69 Dart, the 'light' version said to be out of a '73 A-body.

jaws said:
Can you get some pics to help us see what your seeing?
Click to expand...

If it comes to knowing I already have the shorter lever, I'll give that a shot. My Canon takes close-ups for complete poo (yes..'flower' button pushed)..I'm not sure they would be helpful.


That's a great pic of the linkage parts! Sounds perfectly reasonable to me (that I have the wrong lever).

69MOPE said:
X2 . You need the short lever!
Click to expand...

Anyone have a length on either of those levers?

I wish I remembered (been maybe 12-15 years) exactly where the linkage came from, the 'big' or 'little' trans. I don't.

I thought of redrilling the hole on my existing lever..but I don't think there's enough room for that and still have metal enough left around the new hole.

THANKS for the info!

AbodEE said:
man that duster looks tough as hell
Click to expand...

That's a good thing, right? ;) Then, thanks!


The pic is at that angle for a reason: Last time I was into the engine I had the hood outside leaning against a tree..wind caught it..my 5" Mopar bracket scoop got busted up. I've got a new FG scoop, have yet to get it ON the car.

Been my baby since '75. Ran in the low 12's (12.06 best 1200'el track). I drove it to the track...and drove it home...every race day.
 
longer reverse lever on the shifter, or shorter lever on the trans.
 
Also make sure the lever is not flipped over when mounting it to the transmission. Go back to that picture of the transmission hardware and note the enlogated slot that actually pushes up onto the shift fork. If you have the lever flipped over that slot causes the lever to be in a different position and the reverse rod either will not line up at all or you have all the adjustment out of it when it finally pops into the shifter hole. It took me some time to figure that one out while under the car.
 
RE: Arm 'Flipped' over.

The bend in a correctly installed lever moves the shift rod hole out (away) from the trans body, right? If it was the wrong way, the hole would be closer to the trans body?


jaws said:
The out put shaft should be the same size on both 4spds. It is a 4spd and not a later model OD? As far as reverse, your eather in or out, is there some binding in the trans(can you get it in by hand)? The linkage is the same even the OD stuff will work.
Click to expand...


This has been bothering me..one of the things I can't say I have an answer to in regard to my transmission. But, I found this, a reference to 833s from '76:

1976 finds us well into the gas shortage era, so Chrysler responds by introducing two gas mileage champs: the Dart Lite and Feather Duster. Lightened, as they are, with several aluminum panels and other "dietized" components, the major new mechanical piece is a revised A-833 with drastically different gear ratios. The 3.09 first gear of the former 6-cylinder cars remains intact, but third gear was changed from 1.40- to 0.73-to-1. That's right, third is overdrive and fourth is direct. A simple flip of the gear lever on the side cover gives the driver the illusion of three normal speeds and a fourth that is overdrive.
Click to expand...

That does not say that EVERY OD 833 has the 3/4 od/1:1 configuration, but my transmission does NOT have the 3/4 lever upside-down.

I think it's safe to say that my trans is NOT an OD version.

The major change for 1971 (actually a late-'70 running change) is a redesign of the side cover and interlock mechanism. New sheet-steel interlock levers replace the old pin-and-balls type
Click to expand...

That WAS true of my transmission: It DID have the sheet-steel scissor style interlock mechanism with steel forks. I did take that stuff out, replacing it with the 'pin-and-ball'/brass forks from my other ('69) transmission.

I don't know why the mainshafts are different sizes between the two transmissions. Maybe my current trans (with the smaller diameter shaft) is a six cylinder trans? I've not checked 1st gear, but it sure doesn't feel like a 3.09 to me.

Oh...and that gear ratio WAS in some V-8 4-speeds:

6-cyl (also 64-65 273, 74-75 318)3.091.921.401.00

Still, I would hope I would have recognized a difference between a 2.66 and a 3.09 first gear.:-k

I see numerous reverse arms on the hurst shifter site..but they are not identified by transmission application. Their PN-1057059 LOOKS shorter than mine.

Might someone have a Hurst PN for the 'shorter' lever?

I have a call into Hurst about it, but a good PN would make this all happen a lot faster AND be much appreciated!!

Thanks!
 
Bare with me and i'll try to explain my conclusion......

YearOne's kit says it fits A & B bodies......Hurst install kit for B bodies is #3734089............No A listed anymore at hurst..........The reverse lever listed for that kit is #1052445.......

1.https://www.yearone.com/Product/DisplayProduct/449955

2.http://www.hurst-shifters.com/?wpsc...s-install-kit-3734089-chrysler-dodge-plymouth

3.http://www.hurst-shifters.com/?wpsc...-kits-3733162-3734089-3734529-3734648-3738621

Also, a original hurst lever should have the last 4 digits of the part# stamped on it. Click on the photo of the arm in #3 and it will expand the pic. Might want to check the one you have and see if a number is present.......Disregard the YearOne stampings, they are repo's.
 
Is there a purpose for the third/smallest hole in the pictured lever? If so, it might explain the lever application?


Re: RE: Arm 'Flipped' over.

The bend in a correctly installed lever moves the shift rod hole out (away) from the trans body, right? If it was the wrong way, the hole would be closer to the trans body?
___________________________

There is no bend to the reverse arm. I thought there was, I was wrong. Man...never trust my memory!

Mine, anyway, is straight..and the lever on my other transmission is also straight. The latter lever is 1 7/16s at hole centers, btw.

Sorry for the confusion on my part.:eek:ops:
 
I'm not sure if this info will help you or not. But after Mopar got away from the Trunion output type mount in 1965, they went to the slip yoke but in 1966 and 1967 the 4 sp yoke was a smaller diameter. In 68 it was standardized.
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
I'm not sure if this info will help you or not. But after Mopar got away from the Trunion output type mount in 1965, they went to the slip yoke but in 1966 and 1967 the 4 sp yoke was a smaller diameter. In 68 it was standardized.
Click to expand...

You are referring to the U-joint size?

I am aware of the 7260/7290 differences. My original smogged '73 340 4-sp had the 7260 series front and back (slip yoke for transmission and pinion yoke for the 8 1/4 rear). I changed that to a 7290 series when I put in my 8 3/4 diff.

From Driveshaft Specialist of Texas website:

Note: A 7260 is 2 1/8 (2.125) in between the inner edges and a 7290 is 2 5/8 (2.622) in between the inner edges..
Click to expand...

That notwithstanding different spline counts/sizes of the pinion yoke, same for the prop shaft on the transmission end.

Do I understand correctly that you are NOT referring to the prop shaft size, but indeed, the YOKE size?
 
The 66 and 67 833's , and later OD's had 26 spline shafts, therefore a different yoke, like the 904 AT.
 
I've been told the operating lever (on the transmission) is the correct lever for the A-body A-833. The slot is not canted but is straight (long edge parallel to the long edge of the lever), NOT like the pictures of the 'B' body levers.

Something else is amiss.

I asked Brewer's about buying a shorter lever. They were kind enough to ask some questions about the setup that I'm getting answers to. Good folks to be generous with their time to help out. I'm hoping I will be able to provide the information to arrive at the correct answer.

It's embarrassing to have neglected the situation for such a long time that I cannot even recall for sure how it came about...exactly what parts replacement/change caused it.

Workin' on it! :banghead:

________edit_______

Further info here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1969630042#post1969630042
 
I found a listing for shift levers in the Hurst shifter that lists my R lever (2336) as being for the '64-'65 A&B bodies. Info from Brewer's indicates my shifter is of that same time-frame.

OK.

But...there is a 6353 R lever that I see listed for '68 and up A-body.

Will the 6353 R lever fit/work in the Hurst shifter that was originally made with the 2336 R lever?

I don't know to what exent levers in the Hurst Comp+ shifter interchange as far as SHIFTer fit.

Thanks!
 
You are being way to hard on your self.
Just shorten or add some length to the rod and be done with it.
You already have mis-matched parts so make what you have work.
 
sireland67 said:
You are being way to hard on your self.
Just shorten or add some length to the rod and be done with it.
You already have mis-matched parts so make what you have work.
Click to expand...


Before I 'make' what I have work, I would prefer to determine a correct way to do it. Granted, there may be no 'correct' way having the passle of mis-matched parts as you say.

If '..add some length to the rod' refers to the shift rod, that isn't the issue. I can adjust the rod to whatever length I want. The reference is maybe to adding length to the shifter lever? I don't know the first thing about welding stuff..and cutting into a lever that might cost me a whole lot of $$ to replace, plus the whole issue of shift rod alignment once the lever is longer would be my last choice of 'fix it'.

I talked to Wayne (Brewer's Performance) about the 6353 lever. He said they are essentially the same except for maybe the rod hole. He asked if I had any stop bolts in the shifter. There is one: In the forward (1-3-R) hole. 'Take it out,' he said.

Yes. That will provide a farther throw on the reverse lever, but also for the 1-3 movement. He said, 'Don't worry about it.'

Granted: As Wayne stated, later Comp+ shifters had no stop bolts at all. This does relate to a 'make it work' approach. I'll choose a Hurst lever made for the application with the stop bolts in the shifter body over removing existing parts to 'make it work.' Have to wonder, though, why Hurst removed the bolts on later units..and even left the threaded holes out of their later product.

Wayne mentioned that the stop bolts in older shifters caused more problems than they ever solved/prevented.

When I get my washer/clip set, I'll get the shifter back in and vary the depth of the stop bolt to see if there is a happy medium to its presence for both 1-3 shifts and proper reverse engagement.

Oh...
mopardude62 said:
Make sure those stop bolts on the shifter itself are not stopping it from going all the way forward. I recently switched shifters and found that was the problem with the old shifter someone had replaced the stop bolt (and jam nut) with a longer bolt so I was not getting the shifter to move far enough to throw it into gear.
Click to expand...

I did take note of that post, but figured if the 1-3 throw was correct, that changing the depth of the stop bolt for only the benefit of reverse shifting would be a mistake.

Yep. This has gone on a good bit. Still I'd prefer, if there IS a correct way to do something, to DO it that way..and not jerry-rig it.

Thanks for the tips/pointer/questions. I appreciate it..and WILL get to a place that I'm not beating this particular shiftless horse to death! :sleepy1:
 
This post to put a close to the opening question.

It's done! Put the shifter in last night. Shifts to reverse fully move the 833 operating lever as God intended it to be.

Many thanks to Brewer's, to Wayne for his time and information.

As mopardude62 said to start with, it was the stop bolt. As Wayne said, 'Take it out!'..and now it shifts to reverse fine.

I did put new stop bolts in front and back, but they are adjusted only to just touch the handle at its full extension. Not necessary I s'pose..but I feel better about it.

I put it back together with a new clip/washer kit from Brewer's. I've been using my own mess-'o-bits of washers, circlips, pins for way too long. Ha! I had a spirolock clip on one rod.

The OEM spring clips do a MUCH better job. :)

If you haven't had your shifter apart in way too long (or ever!), do yourself a favor: Take the thing apart and CLEAN it up! Chances are excellent that the improvement will make you happy!

I've always had to waggle the handle to get it into the reverse lever, no adjustment/alignment helped or resolved it.

Now? My shifter has never worked so smoothly!!

Thanks to all for the pointers and ideas!
 
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