Upgrading a Fairly Stock Suspension

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mcnoople said:
That is a lot of red for an alignment. You must have had your alignment tech steaming out of his ears with thoughts of this car is broken and I hate old cars. Seriously, though does it drive straight? With your cross camber and caster both pulling right I know it would have some drift with the road crown we have around here. The numbers on my valiant are very close to yours, but I got mine using rms uca's. Five degrees caster and manual steering makes you man up a little at parking lot speeds.
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They do older cars and custom stuff. Not a big deal. I think we bounced the car some more to get it to settle more and the numbers were closer. I also think we might have made another small adjustment. That's just a moment in time when I snapped a picture. It was 6 years ago.

I have other alignment printouts from 1993 to 2006 with similar caster numbers with a little less negative camber (it was my only car then)
 
2 Darts said:
Yes. I prefer the Watt's link. First saw the link used under Dan Gurney's AAR. I applied it to a circle track racer I crewed on. Driver raved about handling, car owner liked not chewing up the inside of the RR tire on the spring. I've been hooked ever since.

I see some reason for confusion. I said ...I recommend either a Panhard bar (aka track bar) but I never provided an or to go with my either. Please forgive me. I thought I'd omit the Watt's link from the sentence, but neglected to get rid of the either. (Skipping English in HS has caught up with me.)

Don't think you sound like a blockhead. I'm still working on my English. FABO has been great practice. lol.
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would the rear slider set up in place of the rear shackles do pretty much the same thing?

sliders027.jpg


i know the watts link and panhard bar are meant to locate the rearend side to side and prevent any side to side shift. i guess the sliders would help but the spring could still flex.
 
Show & tell:

Panhard bar and other devices:
http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/suspension/panhard.htm
 
If the spring is steup like it should be (almost no arch) at ride hight, the spring will have greatly reduced side to side movement, and a lot less bump steer
 
younggun2.0 said:
would the rear slider set up in place of the rear shackles do pretty much the same thing?
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That's very interesting hardware. I don't think it would do the same thing because it acts on the longitude of the axle and not the latitude (if you'll forgive the navigation metaphor).


sliders027.jpg


younggun2.0 said:
i know the watts link and panhard bar are meant to locate the rearend side to side and prevent any side to side shift. i guess the sliders would help but the spring could still flex.
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The axle will wind up against the spring during acceleration and braking. The Watts link and Panhard bar applied laterally will not affect this the wind up. The Gurney car had 3 Watts links on it; one on each side to locate the axle fore and aft, and a lateral one to control side-to-side motion. Hopefully the attached photos will show how the Watts link works.
 

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Here's a slightly different perspective...

For a street car that's regularly driven (not just to cruise nights or on Sundays, or trailered to autocrosses and track days), I think your first step to good handling and stability is to control body roll and optimize front end geometry (alignment specs). Super-stiff springs are not absolutely necessary.

I run my car on long-distance vintage rallies, like the California Melee and the Motherlode 400. These run exclusively on back roads, many of which are twisty, steep and have all kinds of surface conditions (including gravel and washboard) so while braking and handling is very important, suspension compliance is equally crucial. So I prefer stiff anti-roll bars and softer springs -- that gives you control when you need it without the bone-jarring ride. The purpose of the suspension is to keep all 4 wheels in contact with the pavement -- every time you bounce a wheel off the ground, you lose 25% of your grip right there. We aren't trying to rack up huge skid pad numbers here -- we are trying to have fun and remain in control. And not spend too much money, either.

So I have factory big-block t-bars (.890) on my 273 Barracuda, factory HD rear springs, KYB shocks, 1.125" front sway bar with poly bracket bushings and custom endlinks with Heim joints (no endlink bushings, to eliminate delayed response), 3/4" rear sway bar with poly bushings, K-H brakes with slotted cross-drilled rotors and ceramic pads, 8.75 SG rear with stock drums. Also a reinforced K-frame, Moog offset bushings and improved strut rod bushings, 14" rallys with Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 215/70-14s (great tire, but sadly no longer available). My swaybars are actually Addco from JC Whitney, with the bushings, brackets and endlinks gradually upgraded over time.

I respect Steve's knowledge and agree with his advice. I just wanted to point out that my 273 car ran with his 340 car lap after lap at Willow Springs on Spring Fling Track Day. I'm sure his set-up would ultimately be quicker if everything was sorted out (and I have no illusions about my car being fit for autocrossing). But I thought I would speak up in favor of a "real world"-oriented low-budget approach. I think we both agree that there is no need to immediately go out and drop a grand on aftermarket goodies.

Tom Condran's book "Performance Handling for Classic Mopars" is getting a little out of date in terms of available products, but is still a great resource for basic concepts, parts swaps and DIY tech.


autoxcuda said:
IMHO, you are way far on your Dart project from buying front suspension. You have all kinds of safety and realiablity issues to resolve first before buying any upgrades.

But after you get that all done...

An economical first major step would be:

Tire upgrade: 225/60/15 or 225/60/14 minimun. 16", 17" rim with better rubber would be great too.

front and rear sway bars. Hellwig if you are on a budget.
1" to 1.03" Torsion bars. The ones that go on sale.
Moog front suspension parts as necessary
Moog offset K7103 upper control arm bushings
Bilstein RCD shocks. KYB's on a tighter budget.

I'd try running that power steering pump pressure reducing deal the Ehrenberg wrote about in Mopar Action magazine before buying a rebuilt steering box just to get the firm feel.

All that will make it feel completely different/better for not a whole lot of money.

You have front KH disks right now. When you get them working properly, they work well with a starting suspension upgrade.
Click to expand...
 
mvh said:
Here's a slightly different perspective...

For a street car that's regularly driven (not just to cruise nights or on Sundays, or trailered to autocrosses and track days), I think your first step to good handling and stability is to control body roll and optimize front end geometry (alignment specs). Super-stiff springs are not absolutely necessary.

I run my car on long-distance vintage rallies, like the California Melee and the Motherlode 400. These run exclusively on back roads, many of which are twisty, steep and have all kinds of surface conditions (including gravel and washboard) so while braking and handling is very important, suspension compliance is equally crucial. So I prefer stiff anti-roll bars and softer springs -- that gives you control when you need it without the bone-jarring ride. The purpose of the suspension is to keep all 4 wheels in contact with the pavement -- every time you bounce a wheel off the ground, you lose 25% of your grip right there. We aren't trying to rack up huge skid pad numbers here -- we are trying to have fun and remain in control. And not spend too much money, either.

So I have factory big-block t-bars (.890) on my 273 Barracuda, factory HD rear springs, KYB shocks, 1.125" front sway bar with poly bracket bushings and custom endlinks with Heim joints (no endlink bushings, to eliminate delayed response), 3/4" rear sway bar with poly bushings, K-H brakes with slotted cross-drilled rotors and ceramic pads, 8.75 SG rear with stock drums. Also a reinforced K-frame, Moog offset bushings and improved strut rod bushings, 14" rallys with Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 215/70-14s (great tire, but sadly no longer available). My swaybars are actually Addco from JC Whitney, with the bushings, brackets and endlinks gradually upgraded over time.

I respect Steve's knowledge and agree with his advice. I just wanted to point out that my 273 car ran with his 340 car lap after lap at Willow Springs on Spring Fling Track Day. I'm sure his set-up would ultimately be quicker if everything was sorted out (and I have no illusions about my car being fit for autocrossing). But I thought I would speak up in favor of a "real world"-oriented low-budget approach. I think we both agree that there is no need to immediately go out and drop a grand on aftermarket goodies.

...
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That was with my old setup. Which was very similar to yours but with .99 T-bars. It also had KYBs, 1 1/8" sway bar, rear bar, HD original rear leaf springs, stock A-arms offset bushings. Does have 245/50/15 hard tires that were 10 years old at the time.

I wouldn't be surprise if the power between my old 340 and your 273 were quite close. Mine was blowing oil out of the breathers covering the firewall that day. My motor let go less than two months after that, on June 12, 2010! Rod bearing.

Now, I have a 416 stroker motor with full Hotchkis TVS and 1.14" T-bars. :thumblef:
 
Do you guys have an opinion about whether tubular UCAs with polygraphite bushings and built-in offsets are any better than stock UCAs with Moog offset bushings with rubber?
 
I'm having a hard time deciding if Polygraphite is necessary for my '73 Swinger cruiser. Anyone have any feedback, not looking for a decidedly stiff ride but I am used to a more modern feel. Something maybe consisting of the PST super rubber kit & front (1.125) & Rear (.750) swaybars, KYB shocks XHD springs & bolt in sub frame connectors? Thoughts or opinions?
 
I know almost all of the discussion on this thread has been front suspension - a lot of good, valuable information.
But here's a suggestion for when you get ready to change to BBP and upgrade the rearend. Rather than paying a bigger price for an A-body 8.75 rear, find a good B-body 8.75 rear and get it narrowed down to A-body width. You'll also be able to upgrade to 11" drums if you go with new 15"-dia. BBP wheels.
 
ocdart said:
But here's a suggestion for when you get ready to change to BBP and upgrade the rearend. Rather than paying a bigger price for an A-body 8.75 rear, find a good B-body 8.75 rear and get it narrowed down to A-body width. You'll also be able to upgrade to 11" drums if you go with new 15"-dia. BBP wheels.
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I've heard that, and even about cutting down a "C" body 8.75. But there are still issues like cutting down and re-splining axles. Not too tough to overcome by an automotive machine shop. But where does an ignorant newbie (about rear axles, anyway, I mean ME!!) go about finding a machine shop who can do the cutting and welding properly? That's the big question that's held me up for quite a while. Thanks!

ATB

BC
 
im actually going ford 8.8 with rear disc when i kill my 8.75 again.

on the suspension, i run something similar to autoxcudas old setup. works very well my my 255 width 17's.

on the poly bushings: i have them on my sway bars, strut rods, and leaf spings. thats it. i found some oddities in my car in the handling department with the poly LCA bushings, and ran the poly UCA bushings for years with no troubles. i gained better overall stability with rubber LCA bushings, and better alignemnt specs with the offset UCA bushings.

i also used hardened steel washers on my LBJ to spindle bolts to be able to adjust my camber and caster to where i wanted them both. after a bunch of street miles and beatings, it is still fine. i do check the bolt torque every now and then, and they have never loosened.

also, on my car, for my setup, im running the FMJ spindles with 11.75 brakes. i liked the negative camber gain addition, and it works for me. no noticible bumpsteer.

with regards to the rear suspension, once you get the leaves parallell and mostly flat, you can dial it in from there. ive looked at panhards and watts due to lateral movement (ive got enough grip that my pinion yoke moved enough to eat a hole throung the passengers side muffler). i, in my case with the 3 inch TTI exhaust and stock tank, cannot run one that is long enough to be benificial.

in summary, i would run the following, which is pretty much what i have now, with a couple of minor changes.
1. NEW moog steering linkage
2. NEW moog ball joints
3. NEW moog offset UCA bushings
4. NEW moog rubber LCA busgings
5. badart strut rods (just as cheap as all the adjustables, with better quality and less bind. on my short list of upgrades)
6. 6 leaf 340 rear leaves, 1 inch drop, espo springs manufacturer.
7. .89 or bigger t-bars (i run the .89 and think i have a cadillac ride, even on the 17's)
8. front and rear sway bars. (i run ADDCO 1 1/8 front, 7/8 rear. all that was availible at the time, but theres better out there for the same money now. hollow not important, adjustable rear is)
9. fMJ spindles for the BBP swao and caliper upgrade.
10. solid power steering box with the presure pump tweaked (i have a firm feel stage 3. noce box, but still too much assist)
11. 3 POINT SEATBELTS!! (i used wescott.)
12. all new brake huydraulics
13. borgeson or other coupler conversion to u-joint (wasnt availible when i built mine. will be on soon.)
14. good shocks. (i run 10 year old KYB's and hate them with a burning passion. i want spax or RCD bilsteins)
15. subframe connectors. (when i did mine, i did the 2X3 square tubing bigblockdart.com style)


my setup, which is listed above, was able to best a c6 corvette, factory 5 cobra,, and a few other serious pieces of hardware on the autocross course saturday. most of my trouble and poor performance came from tires and carb issues.


also, as a parting shot, just remember:
not running is an inconvienience. not stopping will kill you."

Michael
 
Around here when I ask at any wrecker about any kind of 8.75 they just laugh. Ford 8.8s are plentiful, cheap and strong plus you get a disc upgrade.
There's a good thread on here about how to shorten them. There are good shops around to cut axles (or sell new) at reasonable prices if you need that.

Dutchman axles in Portland is an example.
 
FISHBREATH said:
Do you guys have an opinion about whether tubular UCAs with polygraphite bushings and built-in offsets are any better than stock UCAs with Moog offset bushings with rubber?
Click to expand...

Depends on what you plan to do with the car. If the car is primarily a cruiser, keep stock components and go with rubber bushings.

Look at it this way: The car is how old? Rubber bushings are still in there, mostly? Why not? It costs less.

The ride will be smoother than with the polygraphites. In terms of road feel and all, any properly installed new bushings will make the car feel dramatically better.
 
i bought the helwigs early on for my car. they mounted so s%itty i sent them back and got Firm Feels front and rear.superior mounting brackets. and you can actually talk to Dick and he will help you out. i actually have a front bar from them i need to sell. along with some other stuff.
spend the extra money on good shocks.
 
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