Were gonna have to start a forum for the "misfits"

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TheCraigMachine

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This is a litte soapbox of mine that has really been getting turned over quite a bit lately. There's a fierce debate going on as we speak over at the small block tech about this very subject. Here http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=205755

Years ago, I cut my teeth working on mopars. Some slant sixes, but mostly on the venerable 318 mill. I've kinda developed a fondness for the little teens. They just have a different "hum" than most other engines.

Ive got a few friends who are car guys. One is a die hard chevy man. Another is a ford and AMC nut. Out of these two, believe it or not, the one who agrees with me more on this subject is the chevy guy! Let me explain.

I have several different vehicles that I consider "project cars", most mopars, some different makes. I have a 73 Challenger that was my first car that i swapped a 5.9 magnum into, including the serpentine accessory drive. I have a 66 imperial Crown that I saved from the crusher. It has a 440 that I built and runs really well for a huge car. I have my grandfathers 84 Buick park avenue with a 307 olds under the hood. This car is all original with 80k original miles and is in mint condition. My grandfather used to call this his "big fine car". I have a 79 Cadillac coupe deville with a 425 that i bought from the police auction just for giggles. This car no longer runs. I have two Plymouth valiants. One a 66 4 door with a 170/3 on the tree, the other a 65 2 door post car with a transplanted 318 from my challenger. Each one of these cars has a totally different character, a different feeling, and a different sound. Its what makes them unique in thier own ways. The 65 valiant, however, is the car that is the basis for this discussion here.

This particular car has only been on the road about a month since the engine swap took place. Its taken me years to get it to that point. I put new heads, cam, and intake on the original shortblock, which was apparently not the right thing to do; I blew a main and lost oil pressure.

Im now being faced with a rebuild one way or another. Ive always wanted to build a roller cam 318 that will rev easily and make SMOOTH power and have respectable fuel economy for the power. I already HAVE two different roller 318's as well as a nice comp roller cam that i had bought for the magnum powered challenger, but never installed.

Heres where the debate comes into play: My Ford/AMC buddy is giving me a bunch of flack about wanting to build a 318. He keeps telling me that he would "never build a 318 when a 360 is the same size and weight". He seems to think that the 318 engine itself is just a stupid concept, and cannnot wrap his mind around why it even still exists, much less why anyone would build an engine that was only "300" cubic inches. I throw out the usual "well what about the 302 ford?" But before i can even finish my sentence, he pipes up and says "Oh, theres NO comparison between a 302 and a 318!" I dont know about you guys, but most STOCK 302s ive driven were complete and total DOGS! So yeah, Id say that there is NO comparison there.

My Chevrolet buddy has been itching to build a 307 for as long as ive known him. He likes the big bore/short stroke combination of the engine, although it suffers the same caveats as the 318: low compression, poor induction, and a sausage for a camshaft. This guy can see the potential in the basic shortblock with its superior rod/stroke ratio and its ability to wind up easier. Just get some air into the thing and itll come alive. The 318 and the 307 chevy have very similar specs in this respect, and he sees the potential in the combination. He says "Go for it, and Ill build a 307 and see what we can get out of them". He likes to say that any chimp with a summit catalog can build a 350 to run 12's. Not everybody can do that with a 307.

Now I know the 360 is truly the superior small block mopar street engine. Its 4" bore and longer 3.58" stroke allow it to reach its torque peak earlier in the RPM range, with an overall higer potential torque output. But its because of that longer stroke that it makes a different sound when you wind it up. To me, the 360 sounds a lot like a 350 chevy. The bore and stroke on both of these engines are very similar, and both have siamesed exhaust ports.

The short stroke LAs on the other hand, kind of have a rythmic "hum" to them instead of a "BWWAAAHHHHGGGHHH" that the 360 has when you wind them up. It just seems alot smoother to me, and i like that.

Now we all know here what it takes to make serious power out of a 318, its been talked to death here. But it seems that everytime someone starts talking about building a 318 (or 273 for that matter), the "just go get a 360" guys start running in like dogs in heat and overrun the original topic at hand. The same thing happens at the big block camp anytime somebody so much as whispers 383, and the 440 guys start barging in.

I want to build a 318 because its what I want for my car!!! If I wanted to build a rocketship, Id use a 360, or build a stroker. But thats not the direction that i want to take this particular project.

This hobby is supposed to be fun people. It doesnt have to be monkey see, monkey do. Not everybody wants a fire breathing 440 in their 64 dart. Its all about making the car "yours". Its all about what YOU want to be able to do with it.

End of rant.
 
i'm going to do this
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_0409_318_engine_build/viewall.html
for this
DSC01699.jpg

i'm here right now
DSC09862.jpg

going to redo the motor/trans after i drive it for a while and work out the "bugs"
 
a 318 is a 340 with 22 less cubes, the heads just made the 340 what it was. You can do all that stuff with a 318, higher compression pistons and large valve heads. The 318 I had (for 3 weeks) was the smoothest motor I ever used in my car, and that goes for the stock 4bbl 273 (fun, tight motor but lacked low end even with its hi compression pistons, the 'lo-po' 318 with all the 273 stuff on it was lower compression but faster off the line and wound just as fast. Both 340s I had were fast as hell but both had a shimmy in them I couldnt get out. This 225 runs like a watch but I have yet to wind it out yet. Build your 318.....have fun. Ask your Chevy buddy why was the 400 SB a dud, but their 383's are all the rage?
 
good article 400 hp from a 318 then over 500 with a baby shot of juice ;)
 
I think the 318 is very under rated....
after I bought my Stealth, my '73 Scamp (318 2bbl, 904, highway gears in the 7-whatever rearend, stock exhaust, stock everything) sat for over 4 years- never even started it up.
Got the itch to get it going again, so I decided to take it to my brother's place (the same place I would redo my Duster a few years later) to do some things to it.
Poured about 5 gallons of fresh gas to blend in with the quarter tank or so it had in it, put in a battery, fired it up. Warmed it up for a few minutes and headed out.
Going up the hill out of town (a fairly long, fairly steep climb out of the valley) I pull up behind a white 70-ish LeMans going fairly slowly. As I pull out to pass, he punches it. Not being one to let that go (even in a car with a stock 2bbl 318 ) I do too. I pass him and pull pretty good (like the people in the song Jingle Bells, laughing all the way).
After leveling my speed off at the top of the hill, he finally catches up and they pass in the left lane- I realize the passenger is someone I know- he and the driver give me thumbs up and I let them go- I'm taking it pretty easy now as I've realized I just put the air in the front tires that sat flat for a couple years:-\".
Felt like rolling the window down while they were beside me and mentioning the fact that they just got pulled on my a stock 'teener, but didn't bother lol.
 
Back in the day, 1970; I bought a 318 Duster 3 speed manual, open 3.23, Put a 500 Holley on it-too much, had to jet it way down, traction bars, and heavy valve springs. No tuning carb or re-curving, etc. F-70 tires. 1?8 mile strip.

Beat my buddies; 383 cuda, 350hp 396 Chevelle.

What else can you say? Valves floated, so bigger springs. Still a stock grocery getter. They will run strong.
 
Back in the day, 1970; I bought a 318 Duster 3 speed manual, open 3.23...

71Duster.jpg


My first car was a 71 Duster with a 318 3 speed. My buddy had a 62 Impala SS with a 327 rebuilt to "Corvette" specs. My well worn Duster walked away from him.

I am now in the bigger is better camp and am building a 408 for my Dart, but I am of the opinion that it's YOUR car, build it how you want. All of my GM buddies think I'm crazy and say I should put a big block in my Dart. "That thing would be NASTY with a big block in it" I can't wait to take them for a ride with my "small block". I wish I could set up a dash cam and capture the looks on their faces when I let it eat!!
 
Heres where the debate comes into play: My Ford/AMC buddy is giving me a bunch of flack about wanting to build a 318. He keeps telling me that he would "never build a 318 when a 360 is the same size and weight".

Well, he is a Ford guy. He probably wouldn't know how. :wink:

TheCraigMachine said:
He seems to think that the 318 engine itself is just a stupid concept, and cannnot wrap his mind around why it even still exists, much less why anyone would build an engine that was only "300" cubic inches.

That's rich. All he has to do is take a look here or on slant.org and look at some of the slant builds or - being a Ford guy - he can surf on over to Fordsix.com and take a look at some of the inline builds. And all those are only "300" inches and smaller.

For a Ford guy he must have his head up his ***. Only 300 inches? Ford built one of those only engines and it wound up being one of their best engines... and it was only 300 inches.

But, yeah, I see where you're coming from. I'm building a dual quad 300 inline for my '78 F250. If I had a quarter for every Ford guy who told me just pull it and put a 460 in it I'd have enough money to build the truck. I usually tell 'em to go buy one like it and put a 460 in it. This one's my truck and I'll build it the way I want it.


TheCraigMachine said:
I throw out the usual "well what about the 302 ford?" But before i can even finish my sentence, he pipes up and says "Oh, theres NO comparison between a 302 and a 318!" I dont know about you guys, but most STOCK 302s ive driven were complete and total DOGS! So yeah, Id say that there is NO comparison there.

This tells you he's a cookie cutter guy. The 302 is perfectly acceptable because every guy with a Fox Body builds one. He's telling you to go with a 360 in your car because it's become popular.

TheCraigMachine said:
the "just go get a 360" guys start running in like dogs in heat and overrun the original topic at hand. The same thing happens at the big block camp anytime somebody so much as whispers 383, and the 440 guys start barging in.

There's a time or place for each. And there's a debate where each makes sense. Take, for instance, my Ramcharger. The 318 has self changing oil. I pour oil in the valve cover and it pours at all the other leaking gaskets. I have an LA 360 sitting on an engine stand in my garage. Dollar for dollar the 360 makes sense to build for my truck. I have to pull the 318 anyway just to be able to re-gasket it. I'd never be content with doing that... a rebuild would be in order. So, why not go with the engine with more torque, dollar for dollar, in a truck?

You put a Magnum 360 in your E-body. Like I said, there's a time and place.

As for the B vs RB argument... I like my 383. I've like the 440's I've owned. I like what I like.

TheCraigMachine said:
I want to build a 318 because its what I want for my car!!! If I wanted to build a rocketship, Id use a 360, or build a stroker. But thats not the direction that i want to take this particular project.

This hobby is supposed to be fun people. It doesnt have to be monkey see, monkey do. Not everybody wants a fire breathing 440 in their 64 dart. Its all about making the car "yours". Its all about what YOU want to be able to do with it.

Like I said above. For all those who are telling you how to build your car, tell 'em to go buy one of their own and build it the way they want to.
 
There's a time or place for each. And there's a debate where each makes sense. Take, for instance, my Ramcharger. The 318 has self changing oil. I pour oil in the valve cover and it pours at all the other leaking gaskets. I have an LA 360 sitting on an engine stand in my garage. Dollar for dollar the 360 makes sense to build for my truck. I have to pull the 318 anyway just to be able to re-gasket it. I'd never be content with doing that... a rebuild would be in order. So, why not go with the engine with more torque, dollar for dollar, in a truck?

You put a Magnum 360 in your E-body. Like I said, there's a time and place.

As for the B vs RB argument... I like my 383. I've like the 440's I've owned. I like what I like.



Like I said above. For all those who are telling you how to build your car, tell 'em to go buy one of their own and build it the way they want to.

LOL "self-changing oil" my old 318 in my Duster did that but burned the oil instead of leaking

I would love for your "Ford guy" friend to explain to me why a 302 is incomparable to a 318... maybe a 4.6L mod motor but a 302 is just another well-designed OHV 2-valve V8. There are only so many ways to make one.
 
Well, he is a Ford guy. He probably wouldn't know how. :wink:



That's rich. All he has to do is take a look here or on slant.org and look at some of the slant builds or - being a Ford guy - he can surf on over to Fordsix.com and take a look at some of the inline builds. And all those are only "300" inches and smaller.

For a Ford guy he must have his head up his ***. Only 300 inches? Ford built one of those only engines and it wound up being one of their best engines... and it was only 300 inches.

But, yeah, I see where you're coming from. I'm building a dual quad 300 inline for my '78 F250. If I had a quarter for every Ford guy who told me just pull it and put a 460 in it I'd have enough money to build the truck. I usually tell 'em to go buy one like it and put a 460 in it. This one's my truck and I'll build it the way I want it.




This tells you he's a cookie cutter guy. The 302 is perfectly acceptable because every guy with a Fox Body builds one. He's telling you to go with a 360 in your car because it's become popular.



There's a time or place for each. And there's a debate where each makes sense. Take, for instance, my Ramcharger. The 318 has self changing oil. I pour oil in the valve cover and it pours at all the other leaking gaskets. I have an LA 360 sitting on an engine stand in my garage. Dollar for dollar the 360 makes sense to build for my truck. I have to pull the 318 anyway just to be able to re-gasket it. I'd never be content with doing that... a rebuild would be in order. So, why not go with the engine with more torque, dollar for dollar, in a truck?

You put a Magnum 360 in your E-body. Like I said, there's a time and place.

As for the B vs RB argument... I like my 383. I've like the 440's I've owned. I like what I like.



Like I said above. For all those who are telling you how to build your car, tell 'em to go buy one of their own and build it the way they want to.
And I agree. I would never put another 318 in a truck if I had the option of easily putting a 360 in its place. Trucks need the torque. But in a 2900 lb A body, the 318 is the one with the higher fun factor here. Not too much torque to blow the tires all to hell, but plenty of high winding horsepower up top to keep a smile on your face, and surprise many a unsuspecting 318 skeptic.

Case in point, had a friend of mine who was big in to roadsters. One of the first ones he bought had an old wore out 305 chevy in it. If you tried to get on it, all it would do is spin and get sideways, but never would go fast in a straight line. He sold that car, and bought another one with a fuel injected 2.8 GM v6 in it. To this day, he says that car was the quickest, most fun hot rod hes had. Its all about the intended purpose. Why do auto makers make several different size engines that are all physically the same dementions and weights? Why dont they all just use the biggest "best" engine in their lineup in every car they make, if its no harder to install that engine vs the one with smaller displacement? Both engines cost the same to produce, regardless of its displacement. Its because an OVERPOWERED car isnt always the BEST performing car! In a street driven vehicle, overall balance is more important than all out horsepower.
 
Why dont they all just use the biggest "best" engine in their lineup in every car they make, if its no harder to install that engine vs the one with smaller displacement?

Because then the manufacturer couldn't charge more money for the bigger motor. ;-)

One trend I've noticed over the years is a move to smaller, higher revving engines. Seems like the 318 fits that bill well. As technology improves it gets easier to make a motor rev and make good power but run clean on the low end and give good economy. The new variable cam timing technology helps that, but I bet a well built 318 would do the job just with a good EFI setup. I've thought that would make a really nice setup.

At the same time, it does seem that every time a manufacturer needs more hp, the motor gets bigger (5.7 -> 6.1 -> 6.4 or 4.6 SOHC -> 4.6 DOHC -> 5.4 Supercharged -> 5.8 Supercharged). I think this just proves that if hp is the only goal, bigger is better.

Don't know about the sound they make (318 vs. 360), but I do like the sound of a high revving V8.

I toyed with ideas for a 273 build for a while, came down to the fact that I could (theoretically) find a forged crank 318 easier. But the 273 would make near the hp of a 360, and maybe deliver several mpg better economy. It wont have the low end torque, but gear it right and it wont matter.

My Paper Tiger build would be a 318 with a big roller cam, 10:1 compression, aluminum high flow heads and a programmable EFI setup. Couple that with an MA6 5 speed out of a Colorado or Solstice and a 3.55 rear gear and look out. Get the motor to idle cleanly using the EFI and make sure the induction setup is responsive, and I bet you would have a killer setup. Will it make the most power? No. Will it (potentially) have better economy than a 360 with a similar build? Most likely.

BTW, the 318 and the 5.7 Hemi share the same bore size, so it's not like a 3.91 bore is impossible to make power with.
 
Nobody wanted the 318 in the late-60's and early-70's.

Never understood why Mopar didn't play around with a 318 4-Barrel for
the 1969 Valiant Sport of Dart GT

You had the 273/190 HP 2-barrel with those cars, then nothing in the performance end.

A 318/250 HP 4-barrel would have been a nice low-price starter performance engine.

Any thoughts,
 
One had a 68 Satellite 318 with just a few mods. He beat Chevy 350s on a regular basis. His cousin had a 66 Valiant 273. He put a 4-barrel on the 273 and a few minor mods, and raced against Ford 289 and Chevy 283 4-barrel cars and never lost. I bought it from him and it was a blast. A guy in a big block Corvette tried to race me on highway 70, near 695, a number of years ago. I am no authority but all the people I knew with 318s found them to be strong durable motors that woke up with a little work. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention my brothers 68 Charger 318. 4-barrel, headers, a few other mods, and it was fast.
 
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