Starter wont engage

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bbrroowwnn said:
It seems like a stuck motor to me.....

"Yes it spins freely. But when first got it it would spin 1/8 a turn. So after a week and fillin the spark plug holes with B12 chemtool it came free and spun freely"

Are you able to turn the motor over by hand numerous revolutions now with the crank bolt?? I am still thinking it is still bound up in a spot....can you turn the flywheel or ring gear (automatic) with a flywheel wrench
Click to expand...

I can spin it by hand grabbing the crank pulley till I am out of breathe and can spin it both ways. It has no drag at all when the plugs are out but is tough to spin when plugs are in
 
It should not take this long to troubleshoot a problem of this sort

You say you can turn the engine. Have you turned it TWO complete turns, which is a complete engine cycle?

You mentioned "ground to the firewall." We may be assuming things. You should have the MAIN battery cable from battery NEG direct to the engine block. At least one additional ground should go either from the engine block OR battery NEG to the body

The main POS cable should either go to the starter relay stud and then to the starter, or else go direct to the starter, with a second cable from the starter up to the starter relay post.

The starter SOLENOID wire goes from the small terminal of the starter up to the "square" terminal of the starter relay

BATTERY CABLES can corrode internally and battery CLAMPS can appear to be good, when "not." You MUST clean the battery posts with a proper cleaning tool:

otc-4618.gif




YOU MUST get a voltmeter and make some checks

Get it down to SIMPLE IE eliminate all wiring, relay(s), etc.

This means use either a starter button or a screwdriver to short

1-- between the starter relay battery stud and the "square" terminal of the relay.

2--If that does not work, jumper directly across the two terminals on the starter.

3--Clip your voltmeter onto the starter main (large) terminal, and to the engine block. DURING the time that you are jumpering the relay and attempting to start the engine, you should see at least 10V at that point. If you do not you have one of the following problems

1---A bad battery cable or terminal. Any smoking, sizzling sounds are an indication of poor connections

2--A bad battery. You seem to have substituted a good one, but suspect connections

3--A bad starter. It does happen

4--A dragging engine, or other problems with the starter mounting, mud, dirt in the bell/ ring gear, etc.

I've fired up three engines in the last few years just "hanging off my hoist" using nothing more than booster cables from the battery to the starter, like this:

This is one:

34nf6l0.jpg
 
74DartSwinger360 said:
I can spin it by hand grabbing the crank pulley till I am out of breathe and can spin it both ways. It has no drag at all when the plugs are out but is tough to spin when plugs are in
Click to expand...

well that is normal just from the compression of the pistons...

May sound stupid but can you turn the flywheel without the plugs in? tranny in neutral or if standard with clutch pedal depressed...The reason I am asking is if the motor was seized and you freed it up with a breaker bar on the crank maybe the crank broke in half and it is still siezed on the back half of the motor....I know it sounds far fetched but it could happen


If it is free at the flywheel and the starter is engaging but still won't spin it, then it must be a weak starter or battery
 
bbrroowwnn said:
well that is normal just from the compression of the pistons...

May sound stupid but can you turn the flywheel without the plugs in? tranny in neutral or if standard with clutch pedal depressed...The reason I am asking is if the motor was seized and you freed it up with a breaker bar on the crank maybe the crank broke in half and it is still siezed on the back half of the motor....I know it sounds far fetched but it could happen


If it is free at the flywheel and the starter is engaging but still won't spin it, then it must be a weak starter or battery
Click to expand...
Yes flywheel spins. Took off the inspection plate (727) and spun crank pulley and the flywheel spun too. I inspected the teeth on the wheel while starter was out and they are not cracked or broken.
67Dart273 said:
It should not take this long to troubleshoot a problem of this sort

You say you can turn the engine. Have you turned it TWO complete turns, which is a complete engine cycle?

You mentioned "ground to the firewall." We may be assuming things. You should have the MAIN battery cable from battery NEG direct to the engine block. At least one additional ground should go either from the engine block OR battery NEG to the body

The main POS cable should either go to the starter relay stud and then to the starter, or else go direct to the starter, with a second cable from the starter up to the starter relay post.

The starter SOLENOID wire goes from the small terminal of the starter up to the "square" terminal of the starter relay

BATTERY CABLES can corrode internally and battery CLAMPS can appear to be good, when "not." You MUST clean the battery posts with a proper cleaning tool:

YOU MUST get a voltmeter and make some checks

Get it down to SIMPLE IE eliminate all wiring, relay(s), etc.

This means use either a starter button or a screwdriver to short

1-- between the starter relay battery stud and the "square" terminal of the relay.

2--If that does not work, jumper directly across the two terminals on the starter.

3--Clip your voltmeter onto the starter main (large) terminal, and to the engine block. DURING the time that you are jumpering the relay and attempting to start the engine, you should see at least 10V at that point. If you do not you have one of the following problems

1---A bad battery cable or terminal. Any smoking, sizzling sounds are an indication of poor connections

2--A bad battery. You seem to have substituted a good one, but suspect connections

3--A bad starter. It does happen

4--A dragging engine, or other problems with the starter mounting, mud, dirt in the bell/ ring gear, etc.

I've fired up three engines in the last few years just "hanging off my hoist" using nothing more than booster cables from the battery to the starter, like this:
Click to expand...

Cleaned the hole in transmission when starter was out. Starter sits flush in the trans. Battery cables are brand new and took them off my dart when engine was pulled and ran fine with them. The starters both work when bench tested and were tested every time I yanked it out which was 3 times. Dropped in the brand new battery from my dads charger. Which is the big Group 27.
Idid what was bolded and will try 2 and 3 tomorrow

I can turn the engine as many times as I want in either direction no problems

The old battery is good threw it into his car and it cranked over and fired so that battery is good.
 
OK so what are you getting for voltage at the starter?

You said earlier "it sounds like it's skipping"

Can you pin down this sound a little more?

Is the starter solenoid buzzing in/ out, or is this skipping sound more like the stripping of gears?

You may have a ring gear problem, either worn teeth, or in rare cases, a ring gear CAN get loose and slip
 
67Dart273 said:
OK so what are you getting for voltage at the starter?

You said earlier "it sounds like it's skipping"

Can you pin down this sound a little more?

Is the starter solenoid buzzing in/ out, or is this skipping sound more like the stripping of gears?

You may have a ring gear problem, either worn teeth, or in rare cases, a ring gear CAN get loose and slip
Click to expand...

It sounds like its skipping like click click click click click click click click click ........... very fastly. Until key is released or screwdriver is taken off the relay
the teeth are not worn much if at all and arent chipped, cracked or missing.
I didnt check to see if the teeth were spining on the flywheel but dont the starter would be clicking it would spin them
 
74DartSwinger360 said:
Yes flywheel spins. Took off the inspection plate (727) and spun crank pulley and the flywheel spun too. I inspected the teeth on the wheel while starter was out and they are not cracked or broken.


Cleaned the hole in transmission when starter was out. Starter sits flush in the trans. Battery cables are brand new and took them off my dart when engine was pulled and ran fine with them. The starters both work when bench tested and were tested every time I yanked it out which was 3 times. Dropped in the brand new battery from my dads charger. Which is the big Group 27.
Idid what was bolded and will try 2 and 3 tomorrow

I can turn the engine as many times as I want in either direction no problems

The old battery is good threw it into his car and it cranked over and fired so that battery is good.
Click to expand...



Ok, if the bendix is engaging into the ring gear fully but just wont spin maybe the starter is weak....bench testing it has no load....another possibility is the teeth may be meshing too tightly and maybe need a shim to seperate teeth a little.... If the teeth are fine, Also, like 67dart273 said, the ring gear welds can break and the ring gear can shift or spin
 
bbrroowwnn said:
Ok, if the bendix is engaging into the ring gear fully but just wont spin maybe the starter is weak....bench testing it has no load....another possibility is the teeth may be meshing too tightly and maybe need a shim to seperate teeth a little....
Click to expand...

The wear on the starter is in the middle to the end towards the front
 
Does it sound like this?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YJZLkEFbU&feature=youtu.be"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9YJZ...ature=youtu.be[/ame]
 
That sound is normally made by a starter solenoid which is not getting enough VOLTAGE, as I said earlier, bad connections, bad cables, poor battery. It could also be something wrong in the starter

What is happening is, that the solenoid "pulls in" and switches on the starter motor, which immediately tries to draw a very heavy amount of current.

The bad cable, connection, etc, cannot SUPPLY that current, so the voltage drops at the starter, until the voltage is low enough that the solenoid "falls out."

At that moment, the solenoid contacts break, which removes the heavy load of the starter motor, and the solenoid IMMEDIATELY now has higher supply voltage SO IT PULLS RIGHT BACK IN, switches on the starter, and does this over and over again, like a buzzer.
 
The only problem is that ALL the cables except a few on the relay a brand new
But I will investigate and try to do more to get it to work in the morning and report back with my findings here
 
At this point, I'd do as advised earlier ---- clip a voltmeter directly onto the large starter stud right at the starter. Ground the other probe to the engine block. Jumper the starter relay, and read the meter as the starter is attempting to crank.

Also wiggle those cables around as you jumper the relay

You have seemingly eliminated a lot of possibilities:

Probably not the battery

Probably not an internal engine problem

Probably not starter gear/ ring gear problem

Most likely a defective cable, bad connection, or bad starter.

IT COULD BE a bad starter
 
Sounds like you don't have a multimeter. I get them free w/ coupon at Harbor Freight and carry one in all my cars. Have saved me from a tow several times. The "click-click-click" is a familiar sign meaning "low battery" to anyone who has owned any car for a few years. In your case, more likely "bad connections". Years ago, my wife call me with that problem in our 69 Dart, so I drove there and measured a solid 12.5 V across the battery terminals while cranking. I moved the multimeter to the wire side of the BATT+ terminal and measured 5 V while cranking. Cleaned the terminals with the brush 67Dart273 shows and it fired right up. My wife thought I was a genius and one of our kids might have been conceived that night. Maybe you'll be as lucky. Haven't had that problem since moving to CA, plus I always spray terminals w/ anti-corrosion after a good cleaning. When I lived in FL and GA, white powder on the terminals was a constant problem, and ceramics (lead oxide) don't conduct electricity.

On the issue of "new to you" engine, initially siezed. A simple and good way to test the condition of the cylinders and valves is to turn the engine over by hand, either tugging on the fan belt or a socket wrench on the crank bolt. If you feel 4 good "air spring" resistances per revolution for 2 revolutions, that indicates your cylinders have a good seal. Even better if you really have to fight each cylinder and hear it slowly leaking down for >10 sec. Of course, easier to distinguish each one if a 4 or 6 cylinder engine.
 
Another trick is after you clean your battery terminals really well, coat the entire terminal and post with vaseline.....An old timer who was a car mechanic his whole life told me that when I was in my teens and I have been doing it to all my cars for the last 20 years and works awesome...I used to have the white powder buildup after 6 months before he told me to do this.....Now, it totally eliminates it.....
 
Try a known good battery & call us in the morning... Check the cables & connections. Make sure they are tight & not corroded or frayed also.
 
You need to !!!!STOP!!! ###king with this thing and start using your head and a multimeter.

Make some voltage checks

1 clip the meter directly to the starter large stud. You can get clip leads at RadioShack. Ground the other lead to the engine block, and crank the engine. Read the meter while cranking the engine. IF THE STARTER is buzzing/ skipping, and the voltage reading is over 10 1/2 volts, you have a bad starter.

If the voltage is below 10 1/2 volts, you have a wiring problem.

NEW PARTS does not mean FUNCTIONAL parts.

Even with new cables and new batteries, you MUST clean the battery posts. They often form an oxidized coating which looks "perfectly normal" and won't even light the headlights.
 
74DartSwinger360 said:
Dropped the Group 27 battery out of the charger into it and it crank other battery had the voltage but not the amprage
Click to expand...

With your run together sentence I am not totally sure of what you said.

Did you say the you changed the battery and now it cranks over? Plus the other battery is a peice of crap?
 
74DartSwinger360 said:
... other battery had voltage but not amperage
Click to expand...
I'll be it did not maintain that voltage while cranking. All the starter knows is the voltage difference between its big stud and frame. Until you measure >8 V there, never blame the starter.
 
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