3 questions about 6s

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mathewdylang

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How big of a turbo is recommended for say a 10psi build of stock 225?

With turbo options, what size exhaust? I was thinking 3" with a bullet muffler, just enough to not blow ear drums.

And last what weight oil? I ran 10w-40 full synthetic mobil 1 in my 93 talon tsi. I was think 5w-40 rotella syn as ive heard good things about it.

Thanks guys (and girls)

Sorry for all the questions, i want this to work and know what i need to make it do that.
 
If you're looking for a junkyard type of build, the Holset HX35 would work well with a /6. The Cummins guys are always upgrading their stock turbos so you should be able to find a good one pretty cheap. The compressor is rated at 60 lbs/min so it should be fine in the 400-450 hp range while still being in it's acceptable efficiency range, but would be capable of 500 if pushed a little harder. This is a popular turbo with the 4 banger crowd and would work well on your /6.

As for the exhaust, the bigger the better. If you can do a single 3.5" that would be great, but for your combo a single 3" would do fine. Use a Magnaflow, Dynomax Ultra Flow, Borla XR-1, Hooker Max Flow, etc straight through type muffler.

Rotella T6 (5w-40) is a good oil. I personally run it in every engine I own.
 
Thanks! I was strongly considering the hx35 already. I didnt know if 3 would be enough, might just go 3.5". Thanks again!
 
Read this:

http://www.slantsix.org/articles/oil-pump-gear/failure-fix-report.htm

This will tell you in basic, that anything over 10W-40 in a slant is asking for trouble. Anything over stock oil pressure is too. Comp cams is a no no because they are nitride hardened. Especially if you combine one or all of those with high engine rpm.

Basically, any 10W-30 or 10W-40 engine oil will be fine and brand doesn't matter. Just add a zinc or zddp additive to protect the cam, and lots of people will even debate the neccessity of that. The additive to me, is just harmless extra protection. You can order the additive from www.summitracing.com.

Also too, don't use a fram oil filter. Wix #51515(seriously, that's the part number, that's the only reason I can remember it) is much better. They can be ordered at summit racing, o'reilly's or advance auto. Autozone doesn't carry wix and I don't know about NAPA. But the NAPA gold filter is a Wix 51515 rebranded plus $2.
 
/6 Matt said:
Also too, don't use a fram oil filter. Wix #51515(seriously, that's the part number, that's the only reason I can remember it) is much better. They can be ordered at summit racing, o'reilly's or advance auto. Autozone doesn't carry wix and I don't know about NAPA. But the NAPA gold filter is a Wix 51515 rebranded plus $2.
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Bad "blanket" filter advice based on rhetoric/internet tribal knowledge isn't a great idea as Fram does indeed make a superior filter to many brands. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with using any Fram filter but I personally suggest using a Fram with hi-flow, hi capacity media like the Ultra or a Fram HP racing filter. The difference between the Ultra and Racing media is the Ultra's synthetic media will filter's out 99% of dirt particles in the 10-20 micron range while the racing filter's are a cellulose blend and trap a little less dirt at 94%. The Ultra is also a high flow rate filter with a screen backed media and synthetic internals designed to last up to 15,000 miles on modern engines that have long drain intervals and use synthetic oils.

And please keep in mind that Fram ALSO produces OE filters for many brands of cars I'm not allowed to reveal right here in the USA.

I hate to be a post-ho here but as a FABO member working for Fram and successfully running our products daily to 7,000 rpm in my A-Body's very demanding twin turbo inline 6 with variable valve timing I couldn't resist.

I do agree with your suggestion on using oils with the correct boundary and surface lubrication additives as we have flat tappet cams in our old cars. In my other car, (a built slant), I use Valvoline racing oil.

PM me if you need to reach out to the Fram/Autolite/Prestone tech team. We are REAL gearheads and we are hear to help, not just pitch products like I'm doing here but I just cannot take Fram bashing any longer when its just not true.
 
I should be clear, I am not bashing all Fram filters. Just the orange can Fram filter.

Just a question though, how much would I pay for a Fram ultra or a Fram HP filter?
 
/6 Matt said:
I should be clear, I am not bashing all Fram filters. Just the orange can Fram filter.

Just a question though, how much would I pay for a Fram ultra or a Fram HP filter?
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Both filters are in the $8-12 range. If guys complain I always get a little puzzled as they will spend $5-15K to build an engine but only want to spend $3 on filters and $2/qt for oil to protect their investment.
 
So you are telling me I should buy a $8-12 filter when Wix carries one thats just as good for $6?

And btw, my oi changes cost me about $40 all said and done cause I like to get what I pay for by spending where it counts.
 
/6 Matt said:
So you are telling me I should buy a $8-12 filter when Wix carries one thats just as good for $6?

And btw, my oi changes cost me about $40 all said and done cause I like to get what I pay for by spending where it counts.
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I'm telling you that the Wix's $6 filter is only 85% efficient, vs ours @ 99% @ 20 microns. So it's really NOT "just as good" if you want to filter out dirt contaminants. So yes, I'm asking you to spend an extra $2. To be fair, if you step into their synthetic filter for $12 it's a sweet 99% efficient BUT that filter specs are advertised @ 30 microns which is irrelevant as it's the 10-20 micron particles that are size that sneak into the journals and do damage.

Over 30 microns and we are not as worried as particles are deemed too big to get between the journals and bearings. 30-40 micron specs are good for your diesel bearing journals but a misleading as true specs for the ever critical 10-20 micron range which the ISO4548 spec for filtration efficiency calls out. You are only an hour or so from Gastonia, so I'd head over there and ask them for a lab tour. We will give you one for free if you want to come to Toledo.

My point here is that we aren't overcharging for the technology as it costs twice as much to build an oil filter with synthetic media that offers high flow rates, 99% efficiency, and long life dirt trapping capacity. It also costs more to build a racing filters with heavy duty components and high flow rates, than a standard filter.

So "where it counts" is trying to find that perfect balance of filtration/flow/capacity. If you have a $700 motor, run a cheap filter. If you have a max effort expensive engine like the one in your new car or your killer vintage hot rod buy and use a quality filter. Sadly, most people never know if their local oil change shop is using a good filter or not.
 
superdve said:
I'm telling you that the Wix's $6 filter is only 85% efficient, vs ours @ 99% @ 20 microns. So it's really NOT "just as good" if you want to filter out dirt contaminants. So yes, I'm asking you to spend an extra $2. To be fair, if you step into their synthetic filter for $12 it's a sweet 99% efficient BUT that filter specs are advertised @ 30 microns which is irrelevant as it's the 10-20 micron particles that are size that sneak into the journals and do damage.

Over 30 microns and we are not as worried as particles are deemed too big to get between the journals and bearings. 30-40 micron specs are good for your diesel bearing journals but a misleading as true specs for the ever critical 10-20 micron range which the ISO4548 spec for filtration efficiency calls out. You are only an hour or so from Gastonia, so I'd head over there and ask them for a lab tour. We will give you one for free if you want to come to Toledo.

My point here is that we aren't overcharging for the technology as it costs twice as much to build an oil filter with synthetic media that offers high flow rates, 99% efficiency, and long life dirt trapping capacity. It also costs more to build a racing filters with heavy duty components and high flow rates, than a standard filter.

So "where it counts" is trying to find that perfect balance of filtration/flow/capacity. If you have a $700 motor, run a cheap filter. If you have a max effort expensive engine like the one in your new car or your killer vintage hot rod buy and use a quality filter. Sadly, most people never know if their local oil change shop is using a good filter or not.
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Ah, well, you're obviously not affiliated with Fram in any way, so you're clearly unbiased.
 
vynn3 said:
Ah, well, you're obviously not affiliated with Fram in any way, so you're clearly unbiased.
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Of course I'm biased, I've seen the testing and I know what matters in filtration. Yes, I work for Fram and I am proud of it, just as I am proud of our other brands, (Autolite, Prestone, Airtex, Wells), we support.
If you take some time to do a little research you will fine out that I'm just stating the facts.

I hate it when guys come into forums and bash any quality brand unchecked and unabated using nothing but, "I heard this and that" on the internet. Do you want to count on valid ISO backed engineering specs to help you choose a filter or creatively skewed statistics or tribal knowledge? We will back up anything we tell you with a personal invite for a visit to our lab to learn about filter engineering and testing. You can also watch some of our technical films online: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cttLaWepdL0"]OIL Filter testing and engineering FRAM Filters - YouTube[/ame]

Take it as you see it, if you want more objective advice on filtration I guess you can speak to your buddies who do not work in filtration and fly blind I guess.

My original point is that if you desire a hi flow oil filter for hi rpm racing use a RACING filter or a HI-FLOW synthetic media as they have a high GPM flow rating. K&N, Mobile 1, Royal Purple also make hi flow filters.

Personally I want folks to run the right type of filter for their application and I do give a damn about this stuff.
 
superdve said:
Of course I'm biased, I've seen the testing and I know what matters in filtration. Yes, I work for Fram and I am proud of it, just as I am proud of our other brands, (Autolite, Prestone, Airtex, Wells), we support.
If you take some time to do a little research you will fine out that I'm just stating the facts.

I hate it when guys come into forums and bash any quality brand unchecked and unabated using nothing but, "I heard this and that" on the internet. Do you want to count on valid ISO backed engineering specs to help you choose a filter or creatively skewed statistics or tribal knowledge? We will back up anything we tell you with a personal invite for a visit to our lab to learn about filter engineering and testing. You can also watch some of our technical films online: OIL Filter testing and engineering FRAM Filters - YouTube

Take it as you see it, if you want more objective advice on filtration I guess you can speak to your buddies who do not work in filtration and fly blind I guess.

My original point is that if you desire a hi flow oil filter for hi rpm racing use a RACING filter or a HI-FLOW synthetic media as they have a high GPM flow rating. K&N, Mobile 1, Royal Purple also make hi flow filters.

Personally I want folks to run the right type of filter for their application and I do give a damn about this stuff.
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Not being a smart azz but can you tell me why Fram went to the cheap cardboard innards in the orange filters. Always used Fram in the past but lately it seems their filter materials have "cheapened" some.
 
crazyjjk said:
Not being a smart azz but can you tell me why Fram went to the cheap cardboard innards in the orange filters. Always used Fram in the past but lately it seems their filter materials have "cheapened" some.
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We started that a long time ago about 1962 I think. An engineer discovered that the endcap material didn't need to do anything other than support the adhesive that keeps the media pleats in alignment. Now we do use steel caps on more flexible media like Ultra that has a stainless screen backer on the pleats but in reality there is a better bond between a fiber end disk and cellulose filter pleats. Toyota and a few manufacturers don't even use end disks, they only use adhesive.

I suppose guys get it when I ask them to glue metal to glass. Like materials just have a better bond. I doubt that we will ever depart from fiber caps because they work so well. Frankly, I know that's contrary to what internet tribal knowledge purports but after you think on it a bit it starts to make sense.
 
superdve said:
I hate it when guys come into forums and bash any quality brand unchecked and unabated using nothing but, "I heard this and that" on the internet.
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You don't know me, nor anything about the amount or type of research I've done. You're simply defensive because my conclusions differ from your admittedly biased opinion.

I've cut open enough filters and done enough research to draw my own conclusions, but thanks for posting the "objective" video. FYI, the only information regarding oil filters that I'll trust is that which comes from a source other than an oil filter producer or their employees who stand to make a buck based on my decision.

If someone doesn't like like the way I vote, they can get their own guy elected. If you don't like my opinions (or those of half the frickin' internet), tell your superiors to spend more money on building filters and less on advertising.

In the meantime, I'll buy almost any filter BUT Fram, and will continue to recommend that others do the same.
 
superdve said:
Bad "blanket" filter advice based on rhetoric/internet tribal knowledge isn't a great idea as Fram does indeed make a superior filter to many brands. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with using any Fram filter but I personally suggest using a Fram with hi-flow, hi capacity media like the Ultra or a Fram HP racing filter. The difference between the Ultra and Racing media is the Ultra's synthetic media will filter's out 99% of dirt particles in the 10-20 micron range while the racing filter's are a cellulose blend and trap a little less dirt at 94%. The Ultra is also a high flow rate filter with a screen backed media and synthetic internals designed to last up to 15,000 miles on modern engines that have long drain intervals and use synthetic oils.

And please keep in mind that Fram ALSO produces OE filters for many brands of cars I'm not allowed to reveal right here in the USA.

I hate to be a post-ho here but as a FABO member working for Fram and successfully running our products daily to 7,000 rpm in my A-Body's very demanding twin turbo inline 6 with variable valve timing I couldn't resist.

I do agree with your suggestion on using oils with the correct boundary and surface lubrication additives as we have flat tappet cams in our old cars. In my other car, (a built slant), I use Valvoline racing oil.

PM me if you need to reach out to the Fram/Autolite/Prestone tech team. We are REAL gearheads and we are hear to help, not just pitch products like I'm doing here but I just cannot take Fram bashing any longer when its just not true.
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Until you've had one explode on you.
 
Holy jeez. To be honest, in my every day cars i use whatever is on sale at oreillys with a jug of oil. Now my talon i always paid more, usually buying wix. I didnt know fram had a high performance section. Only like the tough guard. But thanks everyone for your input. But until i get it built, the filter is irrelevent.
 
mathewdylang said:
Holy jeez. To be honest, in my every day cars i use whatever is on sale at oreillys with a jug of oil. Now my talon i always paid more, usually buying wix. I didnt know fram had a high performance section. Only like the tough guard. But thanks everyone for your input. But until i get it built, the filter is irrelevent.
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Matt, PM me your address and I'll send you some HP ones.
 
vynn3 said:
You don't know me, nor anything about the amount or type of research I've done. You're simply defensive because my conclusions differ from your admittedly biased opinion.


I've cut open enough filters and done enough research to draw my own conclusions, but thanks for posting the "objective" video. FYI, the only information regarding oil filters that I'll trust is that which comes from a source other than an oil filter producer or their employees who stand to make a buck based on my decision.

If someone doesn't like like the way I vote, they can get their own guy elected. If you don't like my opinions (or those of half the frickin' internet), tell your superiors to spend more money on building filters and less on advertising.

In the meantime, I'll buy almost any filter BUT Fram, and will continue to recommend that others do the same.
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Do you really think that a bias allows a person to lie or distort facts? I'm not allowed to lie for my job. I'm going to defend our brand because I'm right in doing so and you are causing damage to our reputation without presenting facts.
My bias comes from objective testing and engineering and our OEM business relationships.

You're right I DO NOT know you but your failure to educate yourself by doing anything other than cutting a filter open and drawing conclusions really isn't engineering, nor can it be construed as fact based reporting. By slamming Fram subjectively you are damaging a company's reputation. Like anyone else here that MIGHT want to learn something about filtration you should really consider attending one of our quarterly lab tours. It's not a sales pitch.

Quite frankly, I do not stand to make any more money by spending my time here defending our company's reputation. But as a car guy AND a Mopar guy I'm here listening to the same rhetoric over and over by you guys and I realize that everyone's need to hear themselves trumps anything that I might say. I'm sure that I have NOT misquoted any filtration specs by us or slammed our competition in any way other than fact reporting.

That being said I will introduce myself. I'm Dave Buckshaw, Sr. Technical Trainer/Film Producer for UCI/Fram. I have over 30 years of professional experience in automobile engineering, with expertise in EFI calibration, J1850/ISO read write software development, OBD2, and electronic controls. My engine building experience was as operations manager for an mass manufacturer of aftermarket Ford Modular V8 engines. Additionally I worked on LSX engine development and dynamometer testing for a GM Tier 1 aftermarket supplier. Prior to my Mopar love affair, I was responsible for ECU calibrations on the fastest 3800 FWDs in the US, with my customers running in the 8's at over 150 mph. Outside of cars I'm a Isshin Ryu practitioner married with 2 daughters who are also practitioners, top students, and classical pianists. Just a regular guy like yourself.
 
I have to go with what I was told for the last 35 years by a retired mec and motor pool army worker, with well over 50 years in the business.
And do as he said........ No Fram filter will never be seen on any of my equipment...
I wonder why I see cases upon cases of these Fram filters in swap meets :silent:
But like I said, I go with what I was told for the last 35 years and so do the young guns around me and farmers, they even agreed with me :shock: I don't know why but it is what it is :coffee2:

Can I be convinced to do otherwise, I may be :sign3: but No, set in my ways and never went to collage or high school :glasses7: but I know when to pour water out of my boot before I put them on :hello2:
 
superdve said:
Check your pump bypass. Burst on 99% of all filters made from any manufacturer in the US is nearly 200 psi of impulse pressure. Racing filters are ~400 psi.
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I don't see a stock/oe engine blowing an oil filter. Sorry.

I saw a comment a few posts back about 10w-40 being detrimental to a slant. Does anyone care to elaborate on that? I was running 10-40 trop-artic in mine.
 
Guys, I have never had any Issue with any Fram product.
Am I lucky and good looking? Well NO. Fram makes a good product. Just make sure you buy the correct product for your needs.

I do like cutting the oil filter apart after the oil change to check for problems.
Does any one else here do this?

Michael
 
MoparDaddy said:
I don't see a stock/oe engine blowing an oil filter. Sorry.

I saw a comment a few posts back about 10w-40 being detrimental to a slant. Does anyone care to elaborate on that? I was running 10-40 trop-artic in mine.
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When I used to race 455 Buicks we had oil pump drive issue when 20w/50 oil was used as the oil was too viscous for the 455's relatively delicate oil pump shaft. We would combat this by ensuring a minimization of internal leaks, (wide bearing clearances), and by running 5w/30 oil in our applications.

On my racing slants that we prep for the flying mile we also run thinner oil, (30w) and keep an eye on the distributor gear. I also smoothed as many oil journals as possible and run a cam button. We do not run a high volume pump and limit our rpm to 5,900. We are boosted so we don't need the same revs as a hyperpak would.
 
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