How to make this Dart Handle?

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Haney

Haney

www.carsonandironmt.com
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I have read about all the "handling" post that the search engine would help me find here at FABO. I am working on a 72 Dart and thought I would post to get some opinions on my specific build and end use. Hopefully some of the FABO Handling Experts will chime in.

The car will be my daily driver. Although it will be a daily driver, I still want it to handle and stop well. It will be a mix of interstate, highway and city driving. I will NEVER be on a road course with this car. There will be spirited driving at times and I want the car to be pleasurable to drive and have a performance feel.

The car is a 1972 Dodge Dart Swinger, 2 door, 318 auto, with factory air and power steering. It currently has a 7 1/4 but I am in the process of putting together a B-Body 8 3/4 that I will put a 3.23 in. I drive about 50 miles a day so MPG is very important as well.

The car is a drum/drum car now but I am currently working on a 11.75 Mopar Disk conversion up front. Once this is compete, I will be running Mustang Bullitt Wheels and 245/45/17s on all four corners.

The car only has 75K original miles on it and drives very good but has the over sensitive, no road feel, power steering that most of these older PS mopars have.

From reading all the other post, I know I need to do these mods:

  • Good performance tires as wide as I can get under it.
  • At set of 1.00" or 1.06" Torsion Bars. Probably going to get Firm Feel Bars.
  • Good Shocks (recommendation?)
  • Moog Offset UCA Bushings to improve Caster
  • Front Sway Bar (Hellwig)
  • Rear Sway Bar (Hellwig)
  • XHD Leaf Springs in the back
Here are a few questions for you:

Since this will never be a road race car would it be worth the money to buy / modify:
  • Tubular UCA's
  • Box LCAs
  • Adjustable Strut Rods
  • 11/16" Tie rod ends and Adjusters
Would I gain any noticable handling improvements that I would see/feel on the road as a DD?

I am also going to reduce the pressure of my PS pump to take some of the assist out of my steering and firm it up.

Any suggestions, opinions, or vendor recommendations here is greatly appreciated......

Thanks in advance!
 
Haney said:
Since this will never be a road race car would it be worth the money to buy / modify:
  • Tubular UCA's
  • Box LCAs
  • Adjustable Strut Rods
  • 11/16" Tie rod ends and Adjusters
!
Click to expand...

Not in my opinion. But, if you can't find "the stuff" (used) to convert the front to big pattern disk brakes, tubular uppers might be a way to go. Youll still need spindles, of course.

Somewhere on the vast darkness of the www. there's an article on limiting pump pressure to improve feel of a factory PS box setup.

I'm a very low buck guy. I improved the heck out of the rear suspension on mine, I junked out a couple 73/4 a Duster/ Demon for parts. Took my factory rear spring pack apart, took one of the 73/4 packs apart, and put one pack back together (on pair I mean) using the longest leaves from both packs, and as I recall, used 1 more leaf than original, and of course it's a longer leaf.

You can buy spring center bolts from a "real" fasteners store or a spring and brake outfit.

Just putting better tires than "we" had in the 70's should help some
 
I say tubular upper arms simply for the alignment they can provide. 6+ caster, -.75 camber, 0-1/16" toe and will handle and drive awesome. All the best parts in the world won't add up to squat if it still gets a run of the mill or stock spec alignment.
 
The wider tires might decrease mpg, but will help with handling.

If the b-body rear is wider, it might disrupt the handling.

Going 6+ on caster and larger tires, will also add load to steering, so perhaps consider the pump mods or Firm Feel box later.

Add Mood strut bushings, and LCA bushings to list. Some like the polyurethane bushings.
 
All the aftermarket parts you can buy wont make a 72 Dart into something its not. You haven't mentioned sub frame connectors which are a very important part of the chassis that is lacking, along with vehicle balance, center of gravity, aerodynamics, etc..
I not saying there is anything wrong with building a old A-body to be a curve carving road course car but... there is a lot more to that than just strong springs and things.
You could very easily end up with a car that drives like a truck for your daily driver.
If you want a car that takes to the road like a Porsche,
best money is spent on something like a Porsche. At least you can get your money back someday.
I haven't seen too many buyers in the market for a classic Dart that drives like a truck.
Depending on what the Dart has or doesn't have now, you might vastly improve handling with very simple, less expensive upgrades, 73 up K member with the stock sway bar through it is a good example.
 
Skip the tubular UCA's for a street car, just use the Moog offset bushings to get your alignment to modern specs.

Get the adjustable strut rods, especially if you go with poly LCA bushings. New LCA bushings and strut rod bushings are not the same size as the originals, and you'll need the adjustable strut rods to get the suspension geometry right.

Boxing the LCA's isn't necessary, but I do it because it IS an improvement and its cheap if you can weld. Also, be sure to true up the LCA's when you add the plate, this takes a TON of slop out of them. Courtesy Jim Lusk

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwes-SP8u4w&feature=share&list=FLZE4z1bplLPyJTJck2AR1ag"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwes-SP8u4w&feature=share&list=FLZE4z1bplLPyJTJck2AR1ag[/ame]

11/16's tie rod ends and adjuster are overkill, but I DO replace the adjusters with tubular ones. You can buy these generic if you get the right length. The 9/16's end isn't the problem, its the flex in the open adjuster.

And absolutely add frame connectors, on everything. Daily, street, strip, road race, whatever. All of these cars should have frame connectors if they do anything other than sit in a museum.

I'd skip the B body rear on a Dart, they're a better fit for the Dusters/Demons. Not that it can't be done, but the backspacing is a bit more of an issue.

1" torsion bars and XHD's are good, Bilsteins for great shocks, Fox's for even better, but both are overkill for a driver. I've had KYB's on my 1.12" torsion bar equipped Challenger for 40k miles. They're stiff, but manageable.

On a Dart I'd do 245/45/17's on all 4 corners for an easier fit, although you can do 255's all around with the right backspace, even with stock spring locations.
 
2x2 won't overlap the rear frame rails. Anything is better than nothing though. I built mine out of 3x 1.5 x.120". The 1.5" fits snug up against the rear floor, and the 3" width will slide over the top of the existing frame rails in the back for additional strength. I wanted to go 3x2, but I would have needed to cut the rear floor pans. Not a big deal, but I decided I didn't want to go that route.

You can also buy them from lots of places, the bolt in Mopar performance connectors can be welded in, or get them from Hotchkiss, US Cartool, Magnumforce, XV, etc. But A-body connectors are just straight pieces of tube, so making them is much cheaper and pretty easy.

IMG_4996_zps19e18495.jpg


IMG_5012_zpse0044a73.jpg


IMG_5010_zps13f324a0.jpg
 
72bluNblu said:
2x2 won't overlap the rear frame rails. Anything is better than nothing though. I built mine out of 3x 1.5 x.120". The 1.5" fits snug up against the rear floor, and the 3" width will slide over the top of the existing frame rails in the back for additional strength. I wanted to go 3x2, but I would have needed to cut the rear floor pans. Not a big deal, but I decided I didn't want to go that route.

You can also buy them from lots of places, the bolt in Mopar performance connectors can be welded in, or get them from Hotchkiss, US Cartool, Magnumforce, XV, etc. But A-body connectors are just straight pieces of tube, so making them is much cheaper and pretty easy.

IMG_4996_zps19e18495.jpg


IMG_5012_zpse0044a73.jpg


IMG_5010_zps13f324a0.jpg
Click to expand...

yes thats one way to do it.
 

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This thread is a similar discussion. Go down to the chart in post 7. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=136748

Recommend 2-4 degrees positive caster and 0.5 degrees negative camber. IMO it improves handling below the threshold of being twitchy or requiring undo attention to keep the car going in a straight line on less than perfect pavement.

When I went to +2 caster and -0.5 degrees camber I noticed significantly sharper turn-in. I also noted a small increase in steering effort, even though I made no PS pressure changes. Steering feel and effort increased when I changed the steering wheel over to the factory Tuff wheel. Factory Tuff wheel is 13.5" in diameter as opposed to the Grant Tuff wheel which is 15".
 
Check out Eaton Detroit Spring for springs and hardware there is also a lot of good information on there site. (eatondetroitspring.com)
 
One of the things you can do to improve handling on any car is to add front and rear anti-sway bars if not already equipped. The sway bars reduce body roll which improves both cornering ability and driver control. If you're going to replace the LCA with aftermarket units, may as well make sure they have bar provisions. Aftermarket and factory front anti-sway bars have different attachment lengths. Make sure that the bar and the LCA will allow for a straight connection. This is essential for proper function.

The only Darts equipped from the factory with a rear bar were the '76 A38 police package cars that mostly went to SoCal law enforcement agencies. The bar on these cars was mounted on the body. After market bars are mounted on the axle. The difference is that all else being equal, the body mount will provide a better ride.

As far as shocks go, recommend just about any major brand gas shock is going to be an improvement over the stock stuff. They also are adequate for a DD. I've used Monroe Gasmatics and Delco Gas Pleasurizers (from Rock Auto) with acceptable results. IMO Bilsteins are the best, but I can't justify the price differential for a DD.
 
Delco Gas Pleasurizers... because everyone enjoys their own brand. ;)


Good info in this thread!
 
Well, After much reading here and from all the replies.... I decided to spend the money and buy some parts. Overkill? Well maybe, but most stuff in this hobby is anyway right?

I ordered the following for my Dart:
  • Firm Feel 1.00 T-bars
  • Firm Feel Tubular UCAs
  • PST Adjustable Strut Rods
  • PST 11/16" Solid Tie Rod End Adjusters
  • 11/16" innner and outer tie rod ends
  • LCA box in plates
  • New rubber LCA bushings
  • New Cam Bolts
  • Bilstien Shocks for all 4 corners
I am going to install all of this when I install my front 11.75 front disk brake conversion from Dr. Diff.

I have also acquired 4 Chrome Mustang Bullet Wheels with 245/45/17 tires.

Once I get this installed, I will work on getting the 8 3/4 in the rear and also add a front tubular sway bar......
 
Haney said:
...

  • Good performance tires as wide as I can get under it.
  • At set of 1.00" or 1.06" Torsion Bars. Probably going to get Firm Feel Bars.
  • Good Shocks (recommendation?)
  • Moog Offset UCA Bushings to improve Caster
  • Front Sway Bar (Hellwig)
  • Rear Sway Bar (Hellwig)
  • XHD Leaf Springs in the back
Click to expand...

Thats would be a great bang for the buck street driver upgrade.

Here are a few questions for you:

Since this will never be a road race car would it be worth the money to buy / modify:
  • Tubular UCA's
  • Box LCAs
  • Adjustable Strut Rods
  • 11/16" Tie rod ends and Adjusters
Would I gain any noticable handling improvements that I would see/feel on the road as a DD?
Click to expand...

That stuff is on the downslope of bang for the buck. It can all add up to something. But the improvements will be small to feel on the street and not as drastic as what is listed on the first list. Not going to feel a adjustable strut rod, boxed LCA, bigger tie rod end on the street. The moog K7103 bushings will get you to the handling alignment specs.

IMHO, I would not bother with that stuff at this point.

Take the money from the second list and get a Firm Feel Power Steering rebuild, Firm Feel Bilstein shocks, Firm Feel roller bearing idler, or a Firm Feel steering gear support. Or have subframe connectors installed.
 
Haney said:
Well, After much reading here and from all the replies.... I decided to spend the money and buy some parts. Overkill? Well maybe, but most stuff in this hobby is anyway right?

I ordered the following for my Dart:
  • Firm Feel 1.00 T-bars
  • Firm Feel Tubular UCAs
  • PST Adjustable Strut Rods
  • PST 11/16" Solid Tie Rod End Adjusters
  • 11/16" innner and outer tie rod ends
  • LCA box in plates
  • New rubber LCA bushings
  • New Cam Bolts
  • Bilstien Shocks for all 4 corners
I am going to install all of this when I install my front 11.75 front disk brake conversion from Dr. Diff.

I have also acquired 4 Chrome Mustang Bullet Wheels with 245/45/17 tires.

Once I get this installed, I will work on getting the 8 3/4 in the rear and also add a front tubular sway bar......
Click to expand...

Awesome now when its all installed, remember what I said about alignment! You will be in for a pleasant surprise!
 
Coil over suspension/sway bars/ and power disk brakes with dual reservoir/wider wheel base
 
Went Auto Cross yesterday and found out my car does not handle for crap. Thought it was pretty good but got my but handed to me. Plenty of power as I could drift around the entire track. I think subframe connectors, rear shocks wheels and tires, drop the front end, dial some neg camber. I was running 53's, Mustangs, Cobalts, and Mazda's were running 45-46 C6 Corvett, 44's and Evo ran a 41.3
1208869_10153140331085713_934713385_n.jpg

Tried to run coarse in 1st but was running out or fuel and could not get any traction. went to 2nd and dropped 2 seconds and it was a lot more drivable.
 
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