Hotchkis leaf springs sagg brand-new

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How low is the car sitting with the springs like that? (got a pic?) Just curious.
 
Feeling the distance between the snubber and the stopper on the floor (that has been beaten in) it is ~3/8" less than the ~1 inch I noted previously


 
The springs are bent right in front of the axle perches.

Looks like it had a combination of: snubber is hitting the body, pinion angle not correct, had wrong shakles on it for a time, and probably other things.
 
I think they were crap straight out of the box, visually it sits as low now as it did before.

Shackles are stock, only put 20 miles or less with the incorrect shackles on it while test driving. Snubber does hit, I blame it on the springs sagging so much, not the Dana 60...how can the snubber be much taller on a Dana than an 8-3/4 if the yoke is at he same point in space (height wise)? (Something to think about) if the snubber didn't hit my u-joint wouldve torn a hole through the floor by now.
 
Man that sure does suck. I'd get a set of factory springs and add a leaf from them, to your hotchkis springs (if that is doable). Probably would improve height by an inch and prevent some of the axle wrap too. There are threads on here about the general process. Obviously it will throw off the spring rates that hotchkis intended, but it doesn't look like they had much of a plan anyway if they are building reverse sagging springs and refusing to own up to it.
 
There bent because they can't handle power and wrap up like tinfoil. I've brought this up several times to Dan and he acts like its my cars fault. The first step is admitting you have a problem. I built Caltracs for mine since the spring wrap is so dangerously out of hand.
 
72BBSwinger, Im sorry to hear that you fell for the same ploy, but am glad that im not just making crazy accusations about them. With 440lb-ft torque I can roll into the throttle in 2nd or 3rd gear and feel the car squat and be held up by the snubber. Because of these springs ive never done a hard 1st into 2nd gear launch either (after testing within the first 50 miles of the cars life and banging the u-joint so hard into the tunnel I thought it was going to rip off in there).

I sent Dan this picture of my car vs Kenny Waynes Duster-His wheels are 1.2" larger in diameter than mine and he still has a bit of a gap above the wheel arch. Im also fairly certain that my car is lighter then the Duster in the picture since it was an empty tank, no carpet, interior, or sound system- just the roll cage. He also said that adding 100lbs of fuel and the body dropping 1" was 'normal'.
 
You want the arch to be 0 at ride height, that part im ok with since that eliminates rear steer with leafs. The springs need about 3 half leafs added on each side to have a chance with any kind torque. I have a set 015 oval track springs and may sacrifice some leafs out of them to dial these in better until I can afford a watts and 3 link.
 
I understand the 0 arch, but when you only have 1-2" of travel, 440lb/ft tq, and 0 arch you cant have 130lb/in springs (all facts im sure you're equally aware of).
I plan on making a four link similar to Mad Dart's, but with johnny joints, maybe a watts link if I don't triangulate it, im currently trying to put things into CAD while im working to get my truck done...Good luck on your endeavors 72BBSwinger
 
I have to post from my Personal/Work account since Hotchkis is not a site sponsor and I can't post here on their behalf. I'm going to say right off the bat that those springs are shot; that said I cannot tell if it is from defect or misuse at this time without at least the springs to test but at this point that is moot. We have several cars running those springs from 350-600hp and non of them have managed to wrap the springs like that. What I'm HOPING is that you got a defective set and I will talk to the powers that be about swapping your springs. We haven't had any feedback from any other customers in your batch that I know of, so you're literally 1 in 250 that have had this issue. I can't remember our previous conversations and I can't find our old e-mails. You can call me direct at 928-783-5421 or e-mail me at dan@dtmracing.us with your phone number so we can talk about this. I'll be at my shop from 8am to 4pm PST today.
Our products are designed to be a bolt on solution to 95% of owners needs. The springs you have are for a bodies with 8 3/4 rears, a properly mounted driveline, using the proper shackles. You are officially in the 5% with your car my friend, welcome to hot rodding. I can say from experience that with my Dana 60 in the Road Runner, I had pinion clearance issues initally. Its a big freaking center section, and I had to shim the pinion angle to get it away, and ran no snubber.
 
DTMRacing said:
I have to post from my Personal/Work account since Hotchkis is not a site sponsor and I can't post here on their behalf. I'm going to say right off the bat that those springs are shot; that said I cannot tell if it is from defect or misuse at this time without at least the springs to test but at this point that is moot. We have several cars running those springs from 350-600hp and non of them have managed to wrap the springs like that. What I'm HOPING is that you got a defective set and I will talk to the powers that be about swapping your springs. We haven't had any feedback from any other customers in your batch that I know of, so you're literally 1 in 250 that have had this issue. I can't remember our previous conversations and I can't find our old e-mails. You can call me direct at 928-783-5421 or e-mail me at dan@dtmracing.us with your phone number so we can talk about this. I'll be at my shop from 8am to 4pm PST today.
Our products are designed to be a bolt on solution to 95% of owners needs. The springs you have are for a bodies with 8 3/4 rears, a properly mounted driveline, using the proper shackles. You are officially in the 5% with your car my friend, welcome to hot rodding. I can say from experience that with my Dana 60 in the Road Runner, I had pinion clearance issues initally. Its a big freaking center section, and I had to shim the pinion angle to get it away, and ran no snubber.
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Thanks for posting here, ill give you a call tomorrow at lunch (Eastern time). I fully accept that I may be in the 5%, however, I do not see how the dana 60's pinion snubber I have on is any/much higher than an 8-3/4...Ill see if I can have my dad measure his 8-3/4. As I said these are the proper shackles, and have been for 12,970 of the 13,000 miles ive put on it. The fronts have recently been returned to the stock front hangers to give slightly more height. rear tires are 275/45/17 and have not clearance issues (after trimming). Pinion angle was correct ~12,000 miles ago.


Can I ask if any of the cars that you know running these springs north of 350rwhp, 400tq are a manual transmission? Not pre-loading the suspension (or keeping it loaded between shifts) would cause a huge shock that im not sure Hotchkis has accounted for here, just a thought
 
I'll be jammed up all morning in meetings, feel free to call after 2pm PST on the land line if you need my cell, e-mail me and I can make time. We can discuss in detail tomorrow, but I believe the issue lies in the Dana 60 and your transmission yoke height. And all of our test vehicles are running off the shelf springs and have anywhere from 10000-60000 miles with them and the lowest powered vehicle is the Challenger at 307rwhp. The Road Runner's 383, the Taxi's 451, Sally's 440 and the Valiants's S/C 360 all put out north of 400hp and 400ft/lb of torque. 2 autos, 3 are 5 speeds. All 5 speeds are dual friction clutches and I would bet that they all get launched and driven harder than anything most folks put their cars through. The locker in the Road Runner is so tight, it tears motor mounts in half quite frequently and bucks the driveline on any turn below 15mph that isn't under power. I think that your springs worked as advertised and wrapped after repeated loading/bottoming of the suspension, however, benefit of the doubt ALWAYS goes to the customer unless we can find something wrong. Look forward to talking with you soon.
 
Dan you built the B-E body springs with half leafs but the A-body is without. My car has 335 tires on it and flat out hooks HARD on the roll. My goofy Caltrac imitation has saved the day for me. At one point driveshaft wrap was so bad the rear yoke cut into the driveshaft as well as the driveshaft hitting the tunnel and ripping the weight off of it. Is there anyway I could get a set of the half leafs you guys use on the B body springs?
 
72BBSwinger said:
Dan you built the B-E body springs with half leafs but the A-body is without. My car has 335 tires on it and flat out hooks HARD on the roll. My goofy Caltrac imitation has saved the day for me. At one point driveshaft wrap was so bad the rear yoke cut into the driveshaft as well as the driveshaft hitting the tunnel and ripping the weight off of it. Is there anyway I could get a set of the half leafs you guys use on the B body springs?
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All our spring packs for Mopars come with them and are of 3 full leafs and a half leaf on the top. DO you know when you got your springs? The oldest set I have in the shop here are 2 years old and they have them as well.

Edit: Look at Dustbulls pic on post #50.
 
Here are some images that show clearance on a car I've built and we are currently upgrading.

Car has 1" rake front to rear, it's flat at race weight.


Just finished the 46RE install. 4" of driveshaft clearance, pinion has about 3.5


Flatness of the spring. Car is tubbed, notice the 2" drop block to make up the difference.



This car used to have a very stout 440 in it. So powerful the owner had a bit of trouble turning it into a doughnut machine on corner exit power application. So now we are putting in a very peppy 318. No axle wrap even with the blocks. Rear tires are 295/40/18 Falken 615K's.
 
72BBSwinger said:
Mine have the top half leaf but no lower half leafs. These are the B body springs I was thinking of http://www.classicindustries.com/images/productimg/h/h24385.jpg Mine are a little over 2 years old.
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That is a seriously dated picture. As in pre 2010. Here is from the Hotchkis site...

http://www.hotchkis.net/_uploaded_f...try-corrected-sport-leaf-springspromo_pic.jpg

Taken today at the shop... These are the same springs that have been on my Road Runner for 3 Years. They check great every year.

 
Feel free to contact me direct for questions. I am the Mopar "guru" but I work off site, so somethings are delayed and the guys at HQ usually only forward me the tough stuff.
 
dustbull said:
Im just popping in again to voice my displeasure with these springs-they are a joke, I hope this makes some people question quality (even from a reputable company). I spoke with one of the techs at Hotchkis months ago, great customer service, the measurements all checked out on these springs, BUT they refused to consider that the metallurgy was incorrect with these springs.

The pictures below are after 13,000 miles. All stock hangers are installed because the Hotchkis supplied front mounts made the car sit even lower. It may not be as clear as in person, but these springs definatly appear to be bowing upwards. IF these springs are fine, I don't want to see a set that are faulty. Im afraid to think of what these things look like during hard acceleration...



Because of these springs, ill be investing more of my time and money into pulling these things off the car, throwing them into the garbage where I think they belong, and designing a 4 link like I should have in the first place...Ill also be placing an order with HELLWIG for the sway bars.
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hello, I've been reading this thread and the one thing i can say, is that your springs are junk. no doubt about it, send them back to hotchkis COD
 
racyroy1 said:
hello, I've been reading this thread and the one thing i can say, is that your springs are junk. no doubt about it, send them back to hotchkis COD
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I agree that the springs are junk, but I'm not 100% sure that it is the spring's fault. I'd really like to check the driveline figures (however he has yet to contact me and I'm looking forward to talking about his car, I like a lot of the stuff he has done), because I'm going to make an educated guess that his driveline angles are way off. And I'm not saying that he set his pinion incorrectly, I mean that I believe that his crank angle is so far down that he had to crank the pinion way up to compensate which caused his clearance issue. My evidence would be the driveshaft relation to the pinion in his picture compared to the angle in mine. I would guess by looking at the picture that his pinion angle is 10-12*, where if his driveline was at the proper angle, it should be 1-3*. After 12000 miles of hooning on his car and bottoming the pinion to the floor pan, the springs are starting to show signs of prolonged abuse. I'd like to get the chassis sorted before we junk another set of springs.
 
DTMRacing said:
I agree that the springs are junk, but I'm not 100% sure that it is the spring's fault. I'd really like to check the driveline figures (however he has yet to contact me and I'm looking forward to talking about his car, I like a lot of the stuff he has done), because I'm going to make an educated guess that his driveline angles are way off. And I'm not saying that he set his pinion incorrectly, I mean that I believe that his crank angle is so far down that he had to crank the pinion way up to compensate which caused his clearance issue. My evidence would be the driveshaft relation to the pinion in his picture compared to the angle in mine. I would guess by looking at the picture that his pinion angle is 10-12*, where if his driveline was at the proper angle, it should be 1-3*. After 12000 miles of hooning on his car and bottoming the pinion to the floor pan, the springs are starting to show signs of prolonged abuse. I'd like to get the chassis sorted before we junk another set of springs.
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I'm not getting sucked into this conversation I'm just stating the obvious. Whether it's the pinion angle, horsepower or bad springs, that conversation is being carried on by others. I hope a cause can be found. I'll be hanging out and watching.:happy1:
 
Judging by the picture of his leafs, spring wrap killed them. They are flat until the front edge of the spring plate where they're kinked. It's plain as day.
 
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