Poor Little Cone Style

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both cone and plate are fine for dd IMHO plate style is easly rebuilt but cone style just take a little machine work. Any real performance application should run Detroit true trac or switched it to a spool
 
replicaracer43 said:
Well, I do enjoy a good argument from time to time. So using your thought process, if the breakaway spec is 150-300 FT LBS, how do you check that? Think about it..... You CANT test it while having engine torque applied to it, so what exactly provides this torque resistance your measuring?????? the SPRING pack!!!!
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Yes, you CAN check it. I used to do several a month at the Ford dealer. Since they are torque sensing, they will ramp up from the drive shaft flange, OR either axle. There are tools specifically designed to measure the breakaway torque. It is essentially a large torque wrench. The one we used at the Ford dealer was electronic. It senses when the clutches or cones break loose and registers that inertia as breakaway torque. Some of the aftermarket units like the Dana Power Lock and the Pro series Auburn can see close to 1000 LB FT.
 
oldkimmer said:
............I have had many cone type with seized spiders on the pin and they spun in the case ruining it..........I have also had a few the worked excellent for many years......all I have now is the clutch type.....I have worked on a couple of hundred also and yes both style are torque sensing.......the cones are not bottomed out in the case till they are rotating.....kim......
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Exactly.
 
YY1 said:
...and how about those horrible, weak *** 741 cases???
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May be the weakest of the 3 but still pretty stout...seen several mid to hi 10 sec cars run them and not break...I would and have used them many times,believe what you will but I would not be afraid to run a 741 case or a cone type sg..I feel the cones type are more aggressive and have read as such but just my 2cents...you can break anything if there is a problem such as warped,cracked,misaligned,loose,not adjusted right,out of balance,etc..and some of these pieces have been slammed on for 40 plus years so some of them are going to fail...I have had good luck with these fallacies at swapmeets from people who think they are junk and I buy them cheap and then run the crap outta them...right now I have an almost brand new detroit locker that was in a 3.91 742 case chunk in a 69 RR,440 4sp,guy had a sg in it that went bad[supposedly] so he had it redone and they rebuilt the 3rd member and installed a new detoit locker, he drove it around for 2 days didnt like the 'clicking' sound when he went around corners so he pulls into my shop and asks me if I have a 3.91 sg laying around, at the time I had several 3rd members in all three cases with sg both types but the only 3.91's I had were the 741's with the cone style from a low mileage trk..he insisted on wanting them so I installed them and kept the unit I removed..I removed the detroit and put it in my 3.73 489 case I had for my dart and sold the 3rd member he had minus the detroit locker..I tried to tell him that what he had was better and that they are a little noisey[the locker] but he drove away happy and his car was no slouch and he beat it up regularly at 11.80's..and it is still going [5+yrs]...point is that all of the cases and sg's are good or MA MOPAR wouldnt have kept producing them,and for 98% of us one is just as good as another as long as its a good operating unit to begin with and is maintained properly,anything can break or cease to perform properly due to wear and tare and abuse...higher hp and torque can require stronger units hence the dana..but for the average street and strip guy any of the 8 3/4 cases[741-742-489] or either clutch or cone type sg will suffice for the most part....backbracing and better bearings,axles,springs,yokes etc helps them live longer and perform better,but if you are 650+hp and torque then you may be looking at upgrading to a dana or what ever especially if it hooks good and big sticky tires/slicks...weight is also a factor...again just my 2 cents worth, and opinion, but I have also lived it and done it and it is what I know and believe....And I agree with RUSTY on his post..just because someone says a 741 is weak and not to use them or that a cone style sg is not desireable so pass on it...is a falsehood....but if you feel they are junk just send them my way I will take them all...
 
I have had good luck with cone style.
When I put the 8.75 together in my duster, pulled a 25 year old sitting on the shelf used 3.23, washed it with brake clean and installed it.
Works great, try to get clutch unit to work that has sit that long out of the housing.....
 
Please feel free to send me all of the weak and/or totally undesirable:

Cone SG units

741 and 742 cases

360 and 400 engines

any non HP block

F/M/J spindles

66/67 8 3/4 housings

...and finally, any 273-4, 340, 360-4, 383-4, 400-4, and 440 "performance" cars that are missing their completely value killing "matching numbers" motor.
 
Guys cone style posi units are totally rebuildable , if you have one that is slipping take the cones out and have 25 thousand machined off the back side of the cone and replace the springs with clutch pack springs from a 727 clutch pack , i have done this countless times and it works great and you will never have a problem again .
 
71Scamper said:
I'd be careful with a comment like that around here. There are people on here that will grab this and take off running and you'll never hear the end of it, lol!
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Then I would kindly point out that it's 2013 not 1973 anymore. :D
 
Dartnut said:
Then I would kindly point out that it's 2013 not 1973 anymore. :D
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Oh believe me I know. There has been great strides in the engineering of aftermarket performance since the 60's and 70's. I prefer a 340 only because I like the short stroke and moderate bore size to make for a rev happy motor.
 
mopar jimmie said:
Guys cone style posi units are totally rebuildable , if you have one that is slipping take the cones out and have 25 thousand machined off the back side of the cone and replace the springs with clutch pack springs from a 727 clutch pack , i have done this countless times and it works great and you will never have a problem again .
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That's what I do. But .025" won't last long. I go .100" off the small end of each cone and install .100" shims on each side. Then they are good again for a LONG time.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Then you are arguing incorrectly. I have had literally hundreds of them apart. It is VERY obvious that they are torque sensing. Let me put it this way. The breakaway torque specs for them in new to good condition is in the 150 LB FT to 300 LB FT range. There's no way those little preload springs can give that much. That torque comes from cones or clutches ramping up when the torque tool is applied to measure the breakaway torque. I have tested probably over 200 units working at different dealerships through the years. Both cone and clutch type. They are both indeed torque sensing.
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Well, just to make sure my memory aint slipping, I went and tore down a new style that I have in the shop. This is what I found:
#1 cones ARE NOT THREADED INTO THE CASE. they have lube groves cut in them for the same reason a synchro does
#2 there is NO RAMP system on the crosspin. it is held by the case and cannot move
#3 the ONLY force pushing the tapered cone into the case, is the spring pack PERIOD.
#4 Rusty said in the first line of his first post, that a cone style will lock up as tight as a clutch type, then went on to say the clutch type could require 1000 lbs to break free, where as the cone would be 150-300, so hows that the same?

Now, can anyone explain to me and the rest of the world, how this is "torque sensing" just trying to weed out the "chest thumping" posts from the facts, that's all
 
Watch it, he might put you on his ignore list... :)
 
I said the Pro Series Auburn and Dana Power lock have breakaway torque in the 1K pound range. Twist it anyway you like. But that is what I said. And it is right. The 150-300 range is for stock type sure grip carriers. Argue all you want. They are not "lube grooves". A blind man could see how they work, I am sorry you cannot.

replicaracer43 said:
Well, just to make sure my memory aint slipping, I went and tore down a new style that I have in the shop. This is what I found:
#1 cones ARE NOT THREADED INTO THE CASE. they have lube groves cut in them for the same reason a synchro does
#2 there is NO RAMP system on the crosspin. it is held by the case and cannot move
#3 the ONLY force pushing the tapered cone into the case, is the spring pack PERIOD.
#4 Rusty said in the first line of his first post, that a cone style will lock up as tight as a clutch type, then went on to say the clutch type could require 1000 lbs to break free, where as the cone would be 150-300, so hows that the same?

Now, can anyone explain to me and the rest of the world, how this is "torque sensing" just trying to weed out the "chest thumping" posts from the facts, that's all
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RustyRatRod said:
I said the Pro Series Auburn and Dana Power lock have breakaway torque in the 1K pound range. Twist it anyway you like. But that is what I said. And it is right. The 150-300 range is for stock type sure grip carriers. Argue all you want. They are not "lube grooves". A blind man could see how they work, I am sorry you cannot.
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your VERY FIRST post in this thread stated that the cone style has just as muck lock up percentage as a clutch type. YOUR words. And you are WRONG. you are also WRONG in the cone style being torque sensing, it is NOT. Just what are the groves there for? to thread into the case? that is retarded. :banghead:
 
Hopefully to clarify, my 1970 factory manual says,

During torque application to the axle, the initial spring loading of the cones is supplemented by the gear seperating forces between the side gears and differential pinions which progressively increases the friction in the differential.
 
Coronet 500 said:
Hopefully to clarify, my 1970 factory manual says,

During torque application to the axle, the initial spring loading of the cones is supplemented by the gear seperating forces between the side gears and differential pinions which progressively increases the friction in the differential.
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Yes, you will notice I mentioned that in post #20....... that small amout of suplimental side force is not considered torque sensing
 
now, compare that to a clutch style, with 4 spider gears, on two shafts, running in a ramp.....the more torque applied to the ring gear, the more they climb the ramps, and compress the clutch pack.
 
replicaracer43 said:
your VERY FIRST post in this thread stated that the cone style has just as muck lock up percentage as a clutch type. YOUR words. And you are WRONG. you are also WRONG in the cone style being torque sensing, it is NOT. Just what are the groves there for? to thread into the case? that is retarded. :banghead:
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Whatever you say sir. You obviously have higher intelligence than I.
 
also worth noting, is than in the clutch style, you have the two pins and 6 spider gears to handle the load, where as in the cone style you have 1 pin, and only 4 spider gears. Just because one unit is stronger than the other, doesn't make the cone style "weak" or "undesirable" They are very good units.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Whatever you say sir. You obviously have higher intelligence than I.
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No sir, I probally don't, but I do understand how they work, and just trying to make sure people understand both sides.... Lots of info comes from these threads and that's a good thing
 
RustyRatRod said:
So does Auburn Gear. READ. They are torque sensing.

http://www.auburngear.com/aftermark...category=4ea7b7ea-ad65-492a-830f-1b8a333d16ef
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interesting read, but that's not a factory cone style unit...It is aftermarket, although very similar. and yes there is some very small amount of force added by the spider gears, (like I said in post #20) but nothing like a clutch style. No way the lockup torque is as great as a clutch style. And compared to the clutch style, it is NOT torque sensing. Compared to a open unit, yes, to a clutch style no. They do both have there place, no dispute there. I guess I got into this thread because of the way the title was worded, seemed like a post LOOKING for a disagreement, and I do enjoy a good argument!
 
Yep. Plenty of expansive force applied due to the gears trying to escape.

My cones were bottoming at the nose out on my B body, so one wheel spin, so I took the cones out and milled 1/8" off the noses and put a 1/8" shim on the backs. Worked fine for 5 years then the car was totaled due to the positraction locking up in a turn... just kidding a rich camaro kid ran into me and had to pay pay pay :)

Coronet 500 said:
Hopefully to clarify, my 1970 factory manual says,

During torque application to the axle, the initial spring loading of the cones is supplemented by the gear seperating forces between the side gears and differential pinions which progressively increases the friction in the differential.
Click to expand...
 
It does not matter. It is a spring preloaded cone type limited slip unit. The only difference between it and a factory unit is pretty much the preload spring pack. Their design is the same. Where do the "side gear separational forces" come from? From torque being applied. It works just like I described. The preload spring pack holds it all together so that the torque from the drive shaft CAN ramp the cones up against the case. It does not matter whether it is aftermarket or factory. The design is identical.
 
69MOPE said:
I have a bucket full of cone style that have the spider gear seized to the center shaft, breaking the lock pin and the cross pin spinning in the housing and destroying the whole unit.
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When the cones bottom out then excessive clearance in the spider gears causes that to happen. The original cone in my car went 145k of hard miles before it gave out.
 
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