Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

Treblig · Dec 26, 2013

Ok here's the general idea. There's no point in using an inspection/drip pan unless it actually functions. So I cut the excess portions off and formed a semi-circle in the area around the ring gear. Then I formed a curve around that semi-circle for two reasons. One to give the pan a little rigidity and two, to have a small portion of the pan project forward, beyond the ring gear. That way any oil/trans fluid that might leak would be captured by the pan lip. It might be hard to see in the pics but curves and contours are always hard to show.

It's still a little rough but after I shape/hammer it a little then sand/primer and paint it will look like it came from the factory that way. LOL

treblig

Treblig · Dec 26, 2013

Here are the tabs for the inspection pan and pics after I welded them in place. Now I can pull the inspection pan dead flat against the adapter plate (you will see this later during installation). This is important so that the ring gear doesn't hit/rub against the pan. I plan to drill and tap holes into the bottom of the adapter plate to attach the inspection pan.

Treblig

Treblig · Dec 26, 2013

I started out today (the day after Christmas) to do a simple thing. I wanted to cut off the portion of the inspection pan that will stick out after I had removed one of the tranny housing ears. It started out pretty simple but when the inspection pan wouldn't fit between the TCI flex plate and the TCI adapter (see previous pics) I had to make a few modifications. In the pics you can see the inspection pan whittled down with tabs welded on. I installed it on the trans and adapter. Now after an hour or so of work I can finally remove the part of the inspection pan that is sticking out (see last pic). In one of the pics you can see a blue magic marker pointing out the contour I put on the pan to clear the ring gear and add strength. In the last pic you can see the part of the pan I need to remove now that everything fits properly. If you'll remember I had to cut off part of the tranny housing ear so my exhaust would clear unfortunately it caused the inspection pan to hang out in the wind (interfering with my exhaust).

PS - before I remove the piece of inspection pan I will weld in a vertical piece so that the pan doesn't twist out of shape when I cut off the end (part sticking out).

Treblig

Treblig · Dec 27, 2013

Well it's getting closer. I need to tack weld it, then remove and clean up. Looks like it's going to work just fine.

treblig

Treblig · Dec 27, 2013

That should do it for the inspection plan. I'll have to re-sand and paint the whole thing but that's a piece of cake. I guess I'll put in the trans pan oil drain plug next (2004Rs never came with one).

Treblig

Mopar to ya · Dec 27, 2013

I have a 200R4 in my Dart and I had column shift. I switched to a B&M floor shifter and ran the cable. You could use the original cable I would assume, unless you use linkage. That or adapt a cable and make it work. I think you will be fine with a little ingenuity. I love my 200R4, and I guarantee you will too.

Treblig · Dec 27, 2013

Thanks MoparToYa, You inspired me to try this swap. I read all you're 2004r Update posts and used much of the info you provided. All I'm doing is trying to put in as much detail as possible so others won't have to wonder exactly how it goes. My plan is to try and use the original shifter, I'm 99.9 percent sure it will work with a few mods. If it doesn't work I'll order a cable and hook it to the original shifter. But I do appreciate all the ideas and pics you posted. If you hadn't shown how easy (very little surgery on car) it was I wouldn't have gone through with it. My Cuda is so nice I just would hate to cut up the floor.

thanks,
Treblig

Treblig · Dec 28, 2013

Here's what I have. A B&M trans pan plug. But I have a few concerns. The easiest way to install this plug is to drill a hole in the bottom of the pan and install (of course you have to pick a spot where the plug won't hit anything inside the trans). The only problem with that method is that the darn thing hangs down about 3/4" below everything else and I'm afraid I knock it off when I accidently hit a speed bump. We have many, many speed bumps in my city and many are very hard to see. So the other option is to mount it on the side but then it's hard to drain all the fluid because you have to mount it high enough to get a large flat surface to seal. Lastly, I could attempt to put the hole on a bottom corner so that it drains well but also doesn't stick straight down. If I mount it on a bottom corner it won't seal good at all so I would have to try and weld it into the pan. I'm a pretty good welder as far as welding for strength but I've never tried to create a leak proof seal with my welds (not a certified welder). The other options are to buy an expensive aftermarket pan ($200 +) or get a professional to weld/braze the plug in.

Anyone done this before???

Treblig

Treblig · Dec 29, 2013

After sleeping on it I decided to cut the hole at one of the bottom corners (will post pics) get it all cleaned up real nice an take it to my radiator man who can solder and seal in place (silver solder). He doesn't charge very much for a quick solder job especially if you prep it in advance. Should cost about $20 Max. A professional welder would charge $50-$60 just to turn their welder "on" and that's no joke!!!
Later I'll today post some more pics of the inspection pan that I massaged a little more. Then I'll address a problem I hadn't even thought about...neutral safety and reverse lights. Turns out Mopar put all this on a switch on the tranny and GM puts it on a mechanism on the shifter. Fun, fun, fun on Sunday!!!

Treblig

Treblig · Dec 29, 2013

Well it wasn't easy as pie but it wasn't hard either. I rolled the 2004R over on it's back and removed the pan (metric bolts). Cleaned it up a little and located the spot where I want the drain plug. Of course I changed my mind a little later but I'm sure you'll put yours when you want. Just make sure you start the pilot hole close enough to the bottom of the pan. It's real easy to be fooled by the large radius on the bottom corners. If you put the hole too high you won't be able to get all the fluid out or you'll be forced to weld it up and start again. If you use a step drill like I did be sure and mark (magic marker) the step you want to stop on so you don't make the hole too big. Either way once I had the 1/2" hole drilled out I used my rat tail file to remove all the burrs (metal shaving will KILL a transmission). In fact I left the tranny pan magnet on there deliberately to catch the shaving and you can see for yourself what can end up in you tranny if you're not careful. After all that I removed a portion of the threaded area on the plug so that I could drain 100 percent of the pan fluid. Then I deburred the threads to make sure nothing ended up in the pan. Since it's going to be silver soldered I won't need the threads anyway. So now in the pics you can see that I have as much ground clearance as possible and can still empty my pan. A little wire wheeling on the solder areas and it's ready to go to the radiator man!!

PS - I also took some pics of the TV mechanism on the inside of the tranny but I'm only allowed 10 pics per post so I'll post those a little later.

Treblig

Treblig · Dec 29, 2013

Here are the extra pics I couldn't get posted last time. The first two are the plug showing all the ground clearance. The pic is sideways. The second pic shows the tranny pan magnet and all the shavings/burrs it caught when I was drilling and filing the hole. The last two are the 2004R TV cable connection on the inside of the tranny. Tomorrow I should be able to get the plug soldered and start on the neutral safety/reverse light problem. I have lots of ideas, I know one should work!!

Treblig

Treblig · Dec 29, 2013

For anyone planning to use a 2004R tranny here are some pics of the valve body ID. I already posted a list of the best trannys to get for the swap but many times people will take the good valve body out of a HP tranny leaving you with a desirable tranny housing with a weak valve body. You have to remove the pan of course.
Mine is a KC3, not the most desirable but a good one that can be easily upgraded. The best ones are the KZFs, CZFs, BRFs, BQs, TAFs and OZs.
treblig

Treblig · Dec 30, 2013

I took the tranny pan to the radiator man and to my surprise he said he could do it while I waited. He only charged $20 to braze it but be aware!! The pan is coated with something (maybe aluminized). Either way the radiator guy had a hard time getting anything to stick to it so we had to sand (lightly grind) off the outer layer. All the time I've had this old (1987) 2004r I wondered why the tranny pan didn't have any rust on it considering it wasn't painted, now I know why. You can see the angle that I held the drain plug so that I had maximum ground clearance and (looking from the inside) also be able to drain 99 percent of the trans fluid.
PS - If you do this yourself you might make the hole in the pan just a hair small. If you make it the whole 1/2" it will come out a little big because you drilling in a corner radius. So if you make the hole a little small you can use a rat tail file or a dremel (die grinder) to make the plug fit perfect and at the proper angle which makes it easier for the radiator man to fill the gaps.

Treblig in Tex

Treblig · Dec 30, 2013

Here's my plan for the neutral safety and reverse light switches. I plan to remove the console on my Cuda and remove the shifter (see pics). Then I'll buy a push button type switch and mount it to shifter bracket as shown in pic. Whenever the shifter handle is in park it will depress the button grounding the wire so the car can start. I plan on using the wire that goes to the middle post on the trans switch. The service manual tells me that the center wire goes to ground when the trans is in park or neutral so all I have to do is extend that wire into the cabin area and connect it to the switch then from the switch to ground. The second pic shows the solution to the reverse light circuit. My manual tells me that the two outer wires on the tranny switch connect when the trans is in reverse completing the circuit to the back-up lights. I plan to buy the lokar switch and mount that goes with the 2004r so when I hit reverse the lights will work. Has anyone tried this before????

Treblig

sdcarsey · Dec 30, 2013

Sorry, it took a while to get you the part #'s, but I didn't have internet at the house on my time off for Christmas.

If you don't want it to shift hard, don't buy the bigger pressure valve. It will still shift firm and don't use the better servos. Use the factory Grand National servos and it won't shift extra hard but firm.

The part#'s in the pictures are just what I had in stock, so they are not the ones you need, but I thought I'd post anyway incase others wanted a hard shift. They are sonnex, I usually run fairbanks servos, but they look like the same quality. They may actually be made by the same manufacturewho knows.

Treblig · Dec 31, 2013

sdcarsey said:
Sorry, it took a while to get you the part #'s, but I didn't have internet at the house on my time off for Christmas.

If you don't want it to shift hard, don't buy the bigger pressure valve. It will still shift firm and don't use the better servos. Use the factory Grand National servos and it won't shift extra hard but firm.

The part#'s in the pictures are just what I had in stock, so they are not the ones you need, but I thought I'd post anyway incase others wanted a hard shift. They are sonnex, I usually run fairbanks servos, but they look like the same quality. They may actually be made by the same manufacture…who knows.

I really appreciate you following through. It's no big deal that you took a while with Christmas and the holidays everyone's been so busy including me. I'm still prepping the tranny and trying to find which parts are best for my application. I tried to "THANK YOU" on your post but I couldn't figure out how to do it. I even looked in the FAQ area and no help. Anyway, you answered the EXACT question I needed an answer for on how to get a firm shift without that harsh "BANG". My little girl will drive this car in a couple of years so that's really important...so thanks again. If I can figure out how to thank you on FABO I'll do it!!!

My 2004R list so far includes:

Boost valve
GN servo
Shift kit?????
Teflon coated pump bushing
Superior super servo (not sure which one this is)???
Furnace brazed converter (don't know if I need the turbine and fins brazed, makes a difference in cost)
Billet servos
pressure regulator valve (not sure what this is)
10 vane pump (with hardened rings)
2nd gear Kevlar band
bearing thrust rear carrier lo/rev
9 friction pates lo/rev
Super HD cooler...
non-lockup kit

PS - I leaning real hard towards a NON-LOCKUP with a 1600-1800 stall.

What am I missing??
Treblig

Treblig · Dec 31, 2013

New surprises today. Torn the console apart and removed the shifter (all original, never been touched). If you've been following this thread you'll know that I'm trying to keep my stock shifter and most of the linkage by installing a rod end on the upper part (below the floor) of the torque shaft (the vertical shaft that goes from the console to the transmission). My plan was to mount a rod end high enough under the car to not interfere with the 2004R (which is wider than my 904). I'm removing the shifter to install a neutral safety switch (see pics). The pics show where I plan to put the push button type switch so that the small piece of flat metal (that moves up and down when you push the shifter button) pushes up against the switch when you put the car in park completing the circuit. It looks like there will be no problem but I noticed that the shifter has two small threaded holes in it in the exact spot that a neutral safety switch would be. Did Mopar put NS switches on this type of shifter on other cars???? If so it would solve all my problems. Anyway I posted that question under "electrical and ignition" hoping that someone knows the answer. The small white piece of cardboard represents the switch and location.

I also noticed (see pics) that there's lots of room to mount a rod end above the floor and mount it to the hump bracket. This could be very important if it turns out that there not enough room under the floor for the rod end. By dissembling the console I also found that the upper bell crank can be removed so I could easily slide the rod end over the shaft. This way I could fix the shaft in the exact position before I cut it off underneath to install the new (manufactured) lower (lever) bell crank. I'll have to cut off about 8 inches of the shaft to make room for the 2004R. Installing a rod end on the top side would also take some of the stress from the lower rod end which is kinda hanging out in the wind. things are looking good today!!!

Treblig

Treblig · Jan 1, 2014

After posting the "NSS/Reverse light" question on the "ELECTRICAL" part of this sight I have better information on how to solve my problem. Seems that Mopar did use a shifter mounted reverse light switch on pre-69 cars that also have the same shifter. For example a 68 Barracuda has the same shifter (or at least one that's interchangeable) as the 69 cuda. But the '68 shifter came with a reverse light switch mounted in the console (see pic). So for my reverse light switch problem I can simply buy a pre-69 switch and mount it in the existing threaded holes that are in all '67 thru '69 Barracuda shifters (and probably other models). The NSS fix will also be simple, I'll buy a push-button type switch that get actuated when the shifter handle is in park. There's plenty of room all around the shifter to mount it wherever I want and I will post pics once I get it all straightened out. I also plan to mount a rod end to the hump bracket to stabilize the torque shaft above the floor. There's also plenty of room for that as you will see. I hadn't ever considered putting a rod end above the floor because I assumed that the top bell crank (lever) was welded to the torque shaft just like the bottom is welded. But, once again, I was not correct. The upper part of the torque rod can be disassembled easily so I can slide a rod end over the shaft without disturbing any of the relationship between the shifter and the tranny. With that small piece of info it greatly increases the possibility that I can use the stock shifter with the 2004R tranny. This was/is the ORIGINAL question that started this thread by TROGDOOR many weeks ago. I had worried that when I cut off the torque shaft short enough to clear the 2004R I would not be able to get it back into the exact same position. But with an upper rod end in place the torque shaft will be fixed front to back and side to side so I'll have no problem keeping the torque shaft properly positioned.

Thanks FABO (and all the helpful members)

PS - the site is experiencing problems uploading pics, I'll try to load the pics later.
treblig

Treblig · Jan 1, 2014

OK, the pictures loaded this time no problem. The site seemed to be working very slow this morning but everything seems OK now. The pics are of a reverse light switch I found on ebay that fits "1966-68 A B C Body Dart Charger". I will order it today and see how it goes.

Treblig in Tex

Treblig · Jan 1, 2014

Very productive day. Went down to Orielys and bought a push button type switch $10 (starter switch). All I was looking for was a switch that had a long threaded area for plenty of adjustment. You can see in the pics what I did. Found center of the shifter shaft and transferred to bracket. Found a suitable vertical location and drilled the 3/4" hole. Also, before I drilled the hole I made sure that there was plenty of room inside the hump bracket for the switch to fit. Had to make a spacer to get the correct amount of "push" on the button but it worked out perfect. As you go into park the button makes continuity between the poles. If you notice I had to remove a little part of the brass cap that goes over the button to clear the arm that's attached to the shifter shaft. The last three pics are with the shifter installed in the hump bracket. Now I can connect a couple of wires and make them long enough to make a connection with the wires that go to the tranny switch so that I won't have to remove the console when I put the 2004R into the car. It will also ensure that I can't start the car in gear when I test the tranny.

treblig

Treblig · Jan 1, 2014

Had time to do a little more work before shutting down. I figured since I had the console out I should go ahead and see if rod end above the floor would work. I made a cardboard template and figured I could use one of the existing bolts that hold the upper torque shaft in place. I basically built a heavy metal bracket to hold the rod end the correct distance from the shaft. I took the cotter pin and upper lever off the torque shaft then another cotter pin and installed the rod end. When you do this kind of stuff you have to make sure (very important) that you don't put the torque shaft in a bind. It takes a little time but when you get it just right the torque shaft will slide into the upper plastic bushing with ease. If you get the rod end a little off it throws the alignment off and the torque shaft won't move into the bushing freely. You don't want your shifter linkage in a bind!! I got mine so well aligned with the rod end that the torque shaft kept falling back down before I could get the upper lever installed. I plan on welding some gussets on the bracket tomorrow so that it doesn't flex when I shift gears. This upper rod end will allow me to cut the lower part of the torque shaft as short as necessary to clear the 2004R housing. Now I feel very confident about keeping the original shifter and linkage. I really didn't want to buy and install a cable shift and put more holes in my cuda. Enjoy the pics.... now all I have to do is wait for the reverse light switch. I ordered it today and it should be here in a week or so then I can put my console back in permanently leaving the wires accessible for when I install the tranny. The last two pics show the rod end installed backwards to I check and make sure that it was perfectly aligned with the torque shaft (very important). I used a straight edge along the threads of the rod end to make sure they were flush with the OD of the torque shaft. Once you get it aligned vertically and horizontally you're 75 percent there. The last piece is to get the rod end the correct distance from the bracket. Once you get it set perfect with no binding you can tack weld in some gussets and it will stay aligned forever. With a little luck I'll have pics of the finished rod end bracket tomorrow. I forgot, I'll have to put a spacer between the new bracket and the hump bracket to equal the space created by the original torque shaft brace (the one with the plastic bushing).

COMMENTS/SUGGESTIONS???????

Treblig in Tex

Treblig · Jan 1, 2014

Forgot these two pics.

Treblig

Treblig · Jan 2, 2014

TCI called me back today to ask for pics and information about the 7/16" bolts that they recommend using during installation of the TCI adapter (read previous posts about the problem). The guy said that he would forward the info to the QC department. So I got all my pics, wrote them a letter about the problem(s) and sent it off with my phone number. I also sent this thread address so they read for themselves what problems I have found with the adapter. We'll see what they say and what they plan to do to help.

Treblig

Treblig · Jan 2, 2014

THE GRINCH GOT AN AWFUL WONDERFUL IDEA!!! Well I got this idea about the gussets on the rod end bracket. I didn't feel like totally disassembling that darn torque shaft again right after I had gotten it perfectly aligned with the new rod end. So I puzzeled and puzzeled til my puzzler was broke. I came up with a way to brace the rod end without removing and welding and reassembling. Since the rod end had plenty of threads still showing I manufactured a brace to attach to it back to one of the bolts. It worked out great. Then I removed the shifter and made up some wires with eye connectors and put it all together. It worked out pretty nice and it's still very strong!!:cheers:
Now I have to wait for the reverse switch. I plan on drilling a small hole in tunnel above the tranny, install a small grommet and run the wires under the floor to the tranny switch wires. When I install the 2004R I can simply splice the original tranny switch wires to the wires leading to the console. Once I get the reverse switch I might even hook everything (to the tranny switch wires) up ahead of time in case I need to work out any bugs.

PS - I even threw in a couple of pics of the '46 Chevy I built for my son. It was a stripped down empty shell on a bare frame when I bought it.

treblig

Treblig · Jan 3, 2014

According to the 69 Service Manual the two outside wires that go to the tranny switch simply get connected when you put the car in reverse. The center wire (NSS) gets grounded to the tranny when you put the car in Park/Neutral. So I ran one wire from my new NSS (on the shifter) to bare ground. I ran two more white wires to connect to the two wires that connect the reverse light under the car. When I receive the reverse switch I ordered all I should have to do is hook it up the two white wires and install the switch with two screws and connect the other ends to the two outside wires on the tranny switch. I have a small grommet. I'll drill a small hole in the tunnel to pass the three wires through then I can reinstall the console and drive my car until I install the 2004R. This should resolve all the problems with the NSS and reverse light. PS - I'm seriously thinking about putting a by pass switch on the NSS circuit as a back up in case the switch ever goes out on me??
treblig

Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

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