Hotchkis 76 Dart Build

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Thanks for sharing DTM racing. I know you are doing this to show us how's it's done and taking time to post pictures and procedures. I think that's awesome maybe I can learn something from you guys.
:cheers:
 
magnumdust said:
Wow this is an incredible build. Shame there is some nonsensical bickering. Anyhow, i have a question. I see the tunnel cut out for the transmission. Is that for normal fitment or because the engine is sitting higher than the factory position?
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Driveline clearance. We recently did the same thing to accommodate a 46RE in a 68 Dart. Driveline and pinion clearance get really tight. Might as well free up some inches if you have the chance.
 
Very very nice build. Looking forward to the finished ride, and maybe a chance to race against it on an autocross. :D
 
looks nice..
My only question is with all the available talent and resources why did you keep the stock steering box, Kframe and rear leaf springs? unless is a rules issue?..Im not current on FIA protocol. I know (us) Mopar people are hard headed..but running pikes peak with that steering box?..would leave me to question weather he really wants to go fast and or win.. I must be missing something.
I digress.
looks like alot of skilled hard work... keep it up ...best regards..
 
Cheapstreetduster said:
looks nice..
My only question is with all the available talent and resources why did you keep the stock steering box, Kframe and rear leaf springs? unless is a rules issue?..Im not current on FIA protocol. I know (us) Mopar people are hard headed..but running pikes peak with that steering box?..would leave me to question weather he really wants to go fast and or win.. I must be missing something.
I digress.
looks like alot of skilled hard work... keep it up ...best regards..
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The owner and I are diehard Mopar guys and have a lot of confidence in certain features and components in these cars, especially the amount of tuning and performance that the Hotchkis kit provides while retaining T-Bars and leafs. This car will show that a well sorted torsion bar and leaf spring car can be just as capable as anything else being made on or off the market while still retaining the spirit of the car. Despite everything we've done with the Road Runner, Challenger and Taxi, some people still aren't believers. Well, at least the ones that haven't seen what these cars can do in person. For some reason folks still are allured into these coil over conversions that have yet to prove themselves as anything but a lazy rebuild kit (with less or the same tuning adjustments as the factory system) or really expensive space savers for headers. However, each of our cars has had short comings that have limited their success. Challenger doesn't have enough HP to keep up with the big boys (307rwhp) The Road Runner and Taxi have serious autocross limitations due to their size. This car will have none of those issues.
 
Simply beautiful. Have a buddy that used to build SCORE race trucks. That engine cage is going to go solve a lot of flexing issues. Welding to the a-pillars....Buddy mentioned above did this on all of the more serious Pre-Runners he built. Had one of them go on it's lid at a bit over 100 mph....in the open desert. Truck did several barrel rolls thru boulders and what not.....Both doors still opened when the carnage finally stopped. All of the window glass was scratched....not a single piece broke. Both occupants, neither wearing a helmet, walked away with 0 injuries...other than being stiff the next morning....While I kind of agree with the "must be nice to have bottomless pockets" mentality that is irrelevant...very impressive....can't wait to see the finished product...
 
For what it is worth.....this build is no different than some of the other "over the top" type of projects/cars that are part of this site....Full tube chassis, monster tired car to run 10's....that folks have drooled over.....and how about that twin pro-charged Duster....how much money was spent on THAT car? For what? To win a jacket? Get your name in a magazine? Twin Turbo Dart...that when done will no doubt put up a big number but will be a bear to bracket race...and aint gonna be much of a street car.....Face it, some folks will build a car/truck/bike that makes no sense to others...but it is what they WANT so who is anyone to question what someone WANTS? Not taking nothing away from anybodies ride but.....There are a lot of folks on this site that are very narrow minded...just look at all the crap that the LSx thread is full of...They can justify there rantings all they want.....and that is exactly what they are....justifications.....

Seen several $125k projects roll out of my friends shop...that were just pre-runners...that when sold were lucky to bring $30k.....But the owners of those trucks had a hell of a good time taking them out the Desert and letting them fly...literally....
 
Why would somebody piss and moan about a nice fabbed rollcage? Anyway, the torsion bar suspension is a awesome design, and MOST guys replace it because they buy into the hype of coilover suspensions. In fact, I would bet 90% of the guys who buy aftermarket suspension systems for there mopars, are not skilled enough with driving, to even get the maximum performance out of a stock suspension.....And my prediction is there are gonna be some butt-hurt guys when this thing outruns there fancy aftermarket setup..
 
replicaracer43 said:
Why would somebody piss and moan about a nice fabbed rollcage? Anyway, the torsion bar suspension is a awesome design, and MOST guys replace it because they buy into the hype of coilover suspensions. In fact, I would bet 90% of the guys who buy aftermarket suspension systems for there mopars, are not skilled enough with driving, to even get the maximum performance out of a stock suspension.....And my prediction is there are gonna be some butt-hurt guys when this thing outruns there fancy aftermarket setup..
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I think 90% buy it because they want to rack and pinion steering and for modern transmissions swaps to be not such a PITA

Personally i'm still mixed on this subject.
 
Im not talking just about other Mopars with coilovers, im talking the entire Autox and road race community. Not to many people have built SERIOUS autox Mopars and because of that alot of people think they cant be successful.
 
Subscribed! Those are some awesome fab skills there wish my wields looked 1/2 that good hahaha I have a TVS system on order for my 69 dart can't wait, hopefully it comes before Friday so I can put it in this weekend!

Two questions for DTMracing why doesn't Hotchkis make T-bars for a bodies? do you have any events coming to Washington state? Definitely would like to be at one this summer
 
i have no doubt the car will give the other brands a run.
i just can think of a better steering box than a worm gear sector shaft style that is in the car...When i think Pikes peak...i think..how grueling that box will be to muscle around....
and forward bite with leafs is wear i was thinking/concerned.
....Not saying it cant be done...
and since your out to prove something with stock suspension...then your explanation makes more sense to me...
fwiw..I like t-bar front spring concept for road course ...and with all the gusseting and chassis stiffining.. as long as you get the flex out of the front rails and have solid upper a-arm mount stiffness...and shock support..then your in....
For pikes peak type stuff id go with longer front suspension travel/geometry and a link rear set up..if it was from a scratch piece of paper...
but Since your looking to prove the prowess of your Hotchkis parts on the stock stuff. then its understandable why your doing it like you are..
best of luck
Jim
i have track/seat time in an Abody with t-bar front end at Road Atlanta...they can handle the task of pissing off the competition......but the steering box will wear you out if you have to manually shift gears with your right hand....lol....
I
 
J-Man,
We did a run, market is flooded with options and there is little money to be made on them. we tell customers to call the folks at Firm Feel, we have a good relationship with them. And sorry, Washington is a bit off the beaten path for us. It was tough on the budget just getting up to Colorado last year, lol.

Cheapstreet,
You missed a piece of the thread. Electronic power steering is being used with the box.
 
72BBSwinger said:
This car is built to shut a lot of mouths.
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Yup...I love DTM's response on saying that it is being built to show just how capable the torsion bar/leaf spring suspension is.

Is this expensive? Yup. Would I love to build a toy like this if I had the coin? Yup. In the end will this filter down to us more 'pedestrian' owners? Yup. Is that a 'double win?' Yup.

I, for one, find this really cool and hope that one day I can afford this kind of indulgence
 
DTMRacing said:
J-Man,
We did a run, market is flooded with options and there is little money to be made on them. we tell customers to call the folks at Firm Feel, we have a good relationship with them. And sorry, Washington is a bit off the beaten path for us. It was tough on the budget just getting up to Colorado last year, lol.

Cheapstreet,
You missed a piece of the thread. Electronic power steering is being used with the box.
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How is the electronic power steering to work with the current/original stuff?
 
1970Duster said:
How is the electronic power steering to work with the current/original stuff?
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There are two current styles on the market.
The first (that we will not be using) is a booster motor that hooks directly to a power rack and acts as a hydraulic pump would have.

The second is an inline booster that the column passes through on its way to a manual rack. The only down side to this that I've come across (talking with Hyundai engineers) is that the load capacity on these units is not designed for heavier vehicles(3400lbs+), or significant loading(sticky tires being sawed back and forth). We have seen it used on a few racecars successfully; and it seems worth a shot if we can use an aluminium, QR factory box and put the light weight of this assist unit closer to the roll center of the vehicle.
 
1970Duster said:
How is the electronic power steering to work with the current/original stuff?
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You shove the unit from a Vue/Cruze/Equinox under the dash and run a controller available on eBay.

corsaBcolumn.jpg


$(KGrHqVHJE!FE3spbY-qBRcSCywdg!~~60_35.JPG


I'm using a Hower 2:1 steering quickener between the column and the manual box. That will give me 12:1. If I want faster I can switch to a 20:1, or 16:1, box to speed it up more and even go to fast ratio idler/pitman to adjust even further.

Since $$$ seems to be a hot topic in the thread, let's look at how much is going into this solution.

Used Vue column $100
eBay controller $65
Howe Quickener $92
U Joints/Couplers/Steering Shaft $325
Borgeson Manual Box $380

Wow... $962 for a complete electric steering solution with steering box. Price out a new FFI box (or Borgeson), rebuilt column, pump, pulleys and it's pretty much a wash.

What really drove this decision? The headers... 2" TTI Gen3 will not clear any power steering box. It's a heck of a lot cheaper to put in this solution than have a set of custom headers built. Plus, better packaging, adjustable, etc...
 
impressive. Really. The idea with the power steering too.

But don't you need an Audi Quattro w/ Walter Röhrl for Pikes Peak?? :) Oh, thats race history....
 
consulier said:
You shove the unit from a Vue/Cruze/Equinox under the dash and run a controller available on eBay.

corsaBcolumn.jpg


$(KGrHqVHJE!FE3spbY-qBRcSCywdg!~~60_35.JPG


I'm using a Hower 2:1 steering quickener between the column and the manual box. That will give me 12:1. If I want faster I can switch to a 20:1, or 16:1, box to speed it up more and even go to fast ratio idler/pitman to adjust even further.

Since $$$ seems to be a hot topic in the thread, let's look at how much is going into this solution.

Used Vue column $100
eBay controller $65
Howe Quickener $92
U Joints/Couplers/Steering Shaft $325
Borgeson Manual Box $380

Wow... $962 for a complete electric steering solution with steering box. Price out a new FFI box (or Borgeson), rebuilt column, pump, pulleys and it's pretty much a wash.

What really drove this decision? The headers... 2" TTI Gen3 will not clear any power steering box. It's a heck of a lot cheaper to put in this solution than have a set of custom headers built. Plus, better packaging, adjustable, etc...
Click to expand...

Wow. Just wow. :thumbup:

I want to see a "how to" on this. :D I'd do that mod in a second if I had a better idea how to proceed on the controller side of things. I already have the 16:1 borgeson box, and already added a telescoping borgeson steering shaft and coupler for the box.

This I want to see. While the 275/35/18's I have up front aren't as difficult to deal with as I thought they'd be with the 16:1 box, that little goody would make things down right butter.

How much "boost" does that unit provide? Would 8:1 (borgeson 16:1 and 2:1 quickner) be easier or comparable to the 16:1 by itself? Or maybe 12:1 with a 1.5:1 quickner?

Could you add the motor on the other side of the firewall? Keep the Mopar column in the car and just section the motor into the original steering shaft?
 
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