tekslk
Well-Known Member
Well I drove the car a couple hundred over the weekend I am more than happy with the hotchkis what a diffrence over stock, I would do it again if I had too.
Hotchkis or Bilstein shocks
- Thread starter tekslk
- Start date
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Glad to hear your guys are enjoying them. It's really hard to quantify/justify a really good shock to folks until they can actually FEEL the difference. And then it's "HOLY SMOKES WHAT HAVE I BEEN MISSING MY WHOLE LIFE!"
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
^^^ You are likley best matching the spring rate to the shock rate this way.
oldskool
Active Member
Just ordered my Bilsteins from PST. Looking forward to feeling the improvement from KYBs.
BigBlockMopar
BigBlockMember
I recently went from Monroe Sensatrac w/ loadlevelers to a pair of Bilsteins on the rear of my Dart.
Much better quality damping of the suspension movements, which made the car feel and handle more like a modern car.
Much better quality damping of the suspension movements, which made the car feel and handle more like a modern car.
Yup, that's the whole point.
Even going off of what Hotchkis says about their shocks you can see how the Bilsteins would work on slightly smaller torsion bars. The improved valving on the Hotchkis shocks does a better job around town on the larger bars, in handling situations the Bilsteins did well. Just a little stiffer around town.
But even going from Bilsteins to Hotchkis shocks on my Duster was a noticeable difference. Not night and day, like going from KYB's to the Bilsteins, but still a difference you can feel just using your butt in the seat. But I have 1.12" torsion bars, which works out to a 300 lb/in wheel rate.
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
So I went with Bilstein (non adjustable) shocks on my e-body to replace my KYB's.
My cuda has original 0.91" torsion front with all new joints and bushings replaced on a small block with 89K miles. Rear had new leafs at some point, 5 stack, but I am not sure how to tell spring rate or anything. I think rear might be a bit stiffer than factory. Again, I have no idea how to tell. Any advice?
My KYB's created a harsh riding feel, with what I was told is far too much dampening with my factory rates. The Bilsteins are now much more compliant. Car feels a bit softer overall actually with a good cruising ride feel, minus the buck-boarding I was experiencing. I think I made the right choice. Price was $295 from an e-bay site. Service was great, and delivered in 3 days.
So here is my question to the expert pool of FABO, for my next upgrade:
Do I tackle new front torsions first, or add a better front stabilizer bar?
I am leaning toward the torsion bars, and I think I am going with 0.96" as I am worried that 1.03" is too firm. Any thoughts or experiences on this subject? I know most here are A or B body, but I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge here.
And if stabilizers are suggested as a next upgrade, do I just go with PST?
Thanks all
My cuda has original 0.91" torsion front with all new joints and bushings replaced on a small block with 89K miles. Rear had new leafs at some point, 5 stack, but I am not sure how to tell spring rate or anything. I think rear might be a bit stiffer than factory. Again, I have no idea how to tell. Any advice?
My KYB's created a harsh riding feel, with what I was told is far too much dampening with my factory rates. The Bilsteins are now much more compliant. Car feels a bit softer overall actually with a good cruising ride feel, minus the buck-boarding I was experiencing. I think I made the right choice. Price was $295 from an e-bay site. Service was great, and delivered in 3 days.
So here is my question to the expert pool of FABO, for my next upgrade:
Do I tackle new front torsions first, or add a better front stabilizer bar?
I am leaning toward the torsion bars, and I think I am going with 0.96" as I am worried that 1.03" is too firm. Any thoughts or experiences on this subject? I know most here are A or B body, but I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge here.
And if stabilizers are suggested as a next upgrade, do I just go with PST?
Thanks all
E-body torsion bars are softer for a given diameter than A-body torsion bars. The Ebody bars are longer. Plus they're typically (not always) heavier cars. I run 1.12" torsion bars on both my duster and my challenger. Both small block cars. The Ebody 1.12" bars have a 270 lb/in rate, the Abody 1.12" bars have a 300 lb/in rate.
1.03" a-body bars aren't too stiff for the street at all, and the Ebody version will be softer than that. With the bilsteins you won't have any problems, I run bilsteins on my Challenger with those 1.12" firm feel bars and it rides great. After putting the 1.12's on my Duster I've considered going to 1.18's on the challenger.
I would do the sway bars at the same time front and rear. Even more so on an e-body, they usually need more rear bar than a-bodies do.
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cudaracer
Well-Known Member
So after worrying that 1.03" is too much and 0.96" is too little, I split the difference with these $200 1" bars.
Just Suspension Mopar Pro-Touring Torsion Bars - English | JustSuspension.com
Thoughts?
Forget PST and their high prices.
Just Suspension Mopar Pro-Touring Torsion Bars - English | JustSuspension.com
Thoughts?
Forget PST and their high prices.
I ran the 1" Just Suspension bars on my Duster for a bit. They were a big improvement from the stock V8 bars I had originally, but they were still too soft for my liking. I haven't seen published wheel rates for the JS bars, firm feel lists their 1" a body bars at 195lb/in, and the JS 1" bars I ran weren't more than that. Firm Feel lists it's E body 1" bars at 175 lb/in.
They definitely shouldn't be too stiff. Depends on what you're looking for, it will handle much better than stock, especially if you add the sway bars. For a street car they'd be fine. But they'll be small if you're looking for a real performance handling car. At least in my opinion.
They definitely shouldn't be too stiff. Depends on what you're looking for, it will handle much better than stock, especially if you add the sway bars. For a street car they'd be fine. But they'll be small if you're looking for a real performance handling car. At least in my opinion.
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
It certainly does matter what I plan to do with my cuda, which for me is 99% cruise and only about the last 1% will be spent showing off or burning rubber or street racing.....all while realizing that no matter what I do to my flex-flyer E-body, it will still not come close to a simple base Mustang, camaro or challenger made today. At least in terms of ride quality and handling. In fact, I bet I could spend a lot of time and money with every structure enhancing weldment and modern suspension swap into my cuda that is available, and it still would not be close.
So why do I bother at all?
Well, some improvements just have to happen, but I am drawing the line at some point and sticking to a budget.
So why do I bother at all?
Well, some improvements just have to happen, but I am drawing the line at some point and sticking to a budget.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
Those 1" bars should be perfect for what you are looking for or the PST 1.03"s would also be nice. Once you get to the really big bars you really start noticing the sharper bumps. Put a decent sway bar on it now and you will have a nice Corolla killer...
Sorry, but that's 100% false. Totally wrong. And it has been PROVEN to be wrong.
The Hotchkis taxi, a 1970 4 door satellite, had lapped TireRacks test course a full second faster than the 2012 3 series BMWs they usually use. That's with the same driver (tire racks test driver!!!), the same tires, on the same course. A 4 door Satellite.
And I've driven a 2013 mustang. Not even the base model, the premium model with upgraded suspension. It doesn't ride or handle significantly better than my Duster. Yes, it's a very different driving experience, but capability wise they are not that different.
And I'd put my flexy flyer challenger up against plenty of new cars.
Now, if you don't want to do what's necessary to take your car to that level for whatever reason, that's fine. It's your car, budget, and prerogative. But to say that "no matter what" you can't have an e body that handles better than any or all of those cars is just false. And it doesn't even take as much as you might think.
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
blu,
putting down good times on a smooth track is not the same as overall ride quality on REAL roads.
Sorry, a BASE V6 Mustang with IRS is far better overall than the best mopar suspension updated from the 60's that has had a gazillion dollars thrown at it to improve it. That's pretty much a fact.
So if we really want to compare apples to apples on a track, V8 pony to V8 pony...then it's game over. That's proven as well. And yeah, I wish that was not the case, but it is.
I do not really understand that comment. If you look at the link you referenced. The A body bars are $249??? Our bars are $239 and we offer a 10% discount to members of the forum and free shipping(48 states) So the total cost would be $215
Just my 2 cents
Thanks
James From
PST Marketing
1-800-247-2288
Ext 316
No problem. The price for just the 1.03 bars is $239 but we do have kits that you can add on for example torsion bar adjusters, polygraphite boots and clips as a kit. The price would be $338.
Thanks
James
Thanks
James
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
At one time you could build something old that could run with the new cars but in the last few years it is getting harder to be competitive with any of the modern muscle cars. If the car will never see a race track you don't need to get crazy to get it to drive decent, if it was my car I would do the PST 1.03 bars, Bilstein shocks, sway bar, good steering box and decent alignment and you will have a car that is fun rail around in traffic without braking the bank.
Have you driven one? Have you driven a properly set up A-body with modern compound tires? Because if you put BFG T/A's on a formula-1 car it would handle like crap. If you skip the tires you might as well skip most of the suspension modifications.
My girlfriend had a 2013 V6 Mustang with the premium package, including upgraded suspension. Traction control, adjustable steering assist, all of it. And 300hp too by they way, so, more than a great many V8 cars. I put it through it's paces, and I'm pretty confident my Duster could beat it in an AutoX. Is it a hell of a lot easier to drive the Mustang? Yes, absolutely. Almost anybody could be fast in the new mustang, I would have to work my *** off to best one in my Duster what with my manual steering and brakes. But is it faster? No, I don't think so. Certainly not on every track in every situation. And it didn't ride any better than my Duster does on the street. Which is, by the way, where it spends most of it's time and where I've put over 10k miles on it with it's 1.12" torsion bars. So, no, the claims you are making are not fact. I've driven both of those cars on "real" roads, and pushed them as hard as I feel comfortable doing on "real" roads. The Duster is a heck of a lot more work, absolutely. But it's not slower. And if it weren't for the nice leather seats, A/C and adjustable steering assist in the Mustang it wouldn't be any less comfortable. You can search my threads, I've said the ride quality on my Duster is not significantly different than a new mustang dozens of times. On real roads. My car isn't a track only deal, it's a daily driver. And that Mustang is now gone, because in 40k miles it destroyed it's lower control arm bushings 3 times, replaced under factory warranty because it was a lousy design, and has been since 2011. Monster thread on all the problems and TSB's with those mustangs 2011-2013 Mustang lower control arm noise TSB's. - Page 22 - Ford Mustang Forum
And I have not thrown "gazillions" of dollars at my car. Here's my parts list. I spent LESS than this, because I bought a few of the big items secondhand, but listed all of the new prices. Like the Flaming River 16:1 manual box I use, I paid $300 for it. The Fox shocks I run I paid about that for too, not the current list price. Yes, I added "J" bars, torque boxes, and frame connectors to my car. But I have less than $500 into those because I did all of the installation myself and a good part of the fabrication too.
My Duster-
Front:
1.12" torsion bars from Firm Feel: $355
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA's:$395
Howe Racing upper ball joints: $130
Moog lower ball joints:$80
QA1 LCA's: $395
Hotchkis Shocks: $475
Hellwig 55905 front bar: $175
Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610
QA1 tie rod sleeves: $50
Moog tie rods (all): $60
Moog pitman and idler arms: $80
Adjustable PST strut rods:$300
Rear:
Hellwig 6908 rear bar: $180 (this is the Ebody bar I run with my B-body rear axle)
AFCO 20231M springs: $320
AFCO leaf spring sliders: $200
Dr. Diff 1/2" spring offset:$150
Leaf spring perches: $15
Front suspension: 3,105
Rear suspension total: 865
Total: $3,970
Here's the video of the Hotchkis Taxi thoroughly flogging a 2012 3 series BMW. Remember, that's a 4 door Satellite. The video is a little long. You can pretty much just start at the 3minute mark. At 4:30 you can watch the Hotchkis Taxi kicking butt. And at 6:00 min TireRack's professional driver goes into how the Hotckis Taxi is a full second a lap faster than the BMW 3 series with the same tires and the same driver, even though Woody (tirerack's driver) had never driven a "protouring set up car" before the test and has probably turned thousands of laps with that 3 series.
Believe what you would like to believe. New cars can not overcome physics. They are more consistent because of traction control and computer assisted suspension, and they definitely make it easier to get close to the edge of the physical capabilities of their components, but all the equations are applied the same. The new Ford GT uses a torsion bar front suspension. The C7 Corvette uses a transverse leaf spring in the back for crying out loud. Improved a bit since the Model A, but it's still a transverse leaf spring. 2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Z51 Suspension Walkaround on Edmunds.com
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
blu,
you need to drive an IRS Mustang or Camaro. Huge difference over the classics.
And although I have not driven an updated classic, I have read every review and watched every youtube video, etc. that I have come across. They all conclude pretty much the same thing.
you need to drive an IRS Mustang or Camaro. Huge difference over the classics.
And although I have not driven an updated classic, I have read every review and watched every youtube video, etc. that I have come across. They all conclude pretty much the same thing.
If you've never driven a properly updated classic as you say, how in the heck would you know it's a "huge difference"? You've watched a bunch of youtube video's? Wow, I guess you're an expert then. Did you watch the video I posted above? Because it shows a 1970 4 door Satellite with off the shelf Hotchkis torsion bar/leaf spring suspension lapping faster than a 3 series BMW with the same driver, on the same course, on the same tires. And a 2012 3 series BMW, by the way, has IRS. So, I guess you didn't watch that review?
It's pretty obvious that your mind is made up on selling your Mopar short. Your loss. I'm done magazine racing with you, maybe you can provide some insight when you've actually driven a properly set up mopar.
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cudaracer
Well-Known Member
Once again, you are missing my entire point.
It’s not just about increasing g-forces on a smooth track…..but the whole package where 99.999999% of customers actually drive their classic, in the real world. This real world is filled with potholes and expansion joints, etc. That means that not only will ride quality suffer immensely for the classic (compared to latest pony cars), but so too will actually handling metrics. The suspension dampening characteristics of the classic upgrade alone are not in the same universe, without even mentioning how much more flex and rattle is there. So once again, my comment is on the OVERALL ride and handling qualities. So yeah, you can make up a lot of ground with enough cash thrown at it in one aspect -- increasing g-forces on a mirror flat smooth surface. But what have you taken away in terms of ride quality for actual roads? This is where modern suspension technology and years of CAE improvements will just outshine the classics.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my classics, but only in small doses. I would never drive cross country with one. Especially one that is upgraded as a G-force machine. Yet I would not hesitate to do so with a modern pony car. Hence my point, once again.
I would have to agree with Blu on this one. If you take the time and methodically make upgrades to what ever classic you have, whether you own a classic MOPAR, FORD, or GM. You can make them handle like a modern car. Many of the products that we offer are designed using today's technology and I feel that you are missing that the point. With the advent of the adjustable shock for example, such as Viking, Fox or Qa1 you can have the best of both worlds. You can crank up the resistance on the compression and rebound for competition and back them off for the ride home to handle the potholes and expansion joint that you have expressed. You have to get out there and experience the upgrades for yourself not sitting at your computer watching youtube. I drive one of my classics on a daily basis back and forth to work and to the track on weekends. My wife even enjoys the car but I have to adjust the suspension to her liking( softer ride) . Also many of the upgrades will build on each other. So they don't have to be all done at once and you won't break the bank in the process. Plus if you are worried money your mopar is only going up in value while your late model muscle cars are depreciating . So in my opinion invest in the classic and make it handle the way you want. The point is to go out and enjoy the ride.
Just my 2 cents
James From
PST Marketing
1-800-2472288
Just my 2 cents
James From
PST Marketing
1-800-2472288
cudaracer
Well-Known Member
Well, adjustability is fine. But who really wants to keep changing settings. And yeah, I get that you can come close or even match and possibly exceed some aspects of modern pony cars, but at what cost? And again, it’s the OVERALL ride I care about most, which includes convenience.
Anyway, a perfect world then for me, is to have both. I am almost there. Told the wife I want a new Shelby (sorry mopar fans, can’t afford a Hellcat) to be parked next to my cuda.
Anyway, a perfect world then for me, is to have both. I am almost there. Told the wife I want a new Shelby (sorry mopar fans, can’t afford a Hellcat) to be parked next to my cuda.
You're talking about "at what cost" and you want a Shelby??? I'd bet you every penny in my pocket that with everything blu has done to his Duster/Demon he has less in that car than you can buy a new Base model V6 mustang for (probably less than a used '14-'15) much less a Shelby!!
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