Six cylinder torsion bars with big block

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Doosterfy

Doosterfy

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I keep seeing people on the internet giving advice about building big block A bodies. One thing I see a lot is people saying you have to swap out the six cylinder torsion bars if you're swapping the big block for a slant six. I just want to let anyone doing the swap to know that it's not required to do that. I did the swap and kept the original six cylinder bars in the car. I have aluminum heads, intake, water pump housing and radiator and I relocated the battery to the trunk. I have all new ball joints, bushings, tie rod ends and Willwood disc brakes on the original spindles and Competition Engineering 3 way adjustable shocks. I drive plenty on the street, drive it back and forth (100 miles each way) to the track and race, and the car rides and handles fine. I am not getting a lot of dive during braking and it's nothing at all like the big block Chevy intermediates I used to build. Its no corner carver by any means and I have Mickey Thompson skinnies on front but it's not the least bit scarry or unpredictable. You do not need to swap them, don't follow the sheep. If the battery were still in front and I had iron heads it may be required. I think a lot of the guys saying they are required have not actually done the swap, they are repeating what they heard or read.
 
Its not about load capacity, its more to do with handling. Guys are installing 1.12 bars for street driving nowadays. I get your point but you do have a light B/RB package there with all the AL parts and light weight brakes. I run stock 340 bars on my 65 A, no complaints. I did have 6 bars on my first 65 340 Barracuda and I can sure feel the difference on a hard braking corner, sway bar and all.
 
I wouldn't run a slant with slant bars, let alone a V8. It IS about road manners and handling...
 
pishta said:
Its not about load capacity, its more to do with handling. Guys are installing 1.12 bars for street driving nowadays. I get your point but you do have a light B/RB package there with all the AL parts and light weight brakes. I run stock 340 bars on my 65 A, no complaints. I did have 6 bars on my first 65 340 Barracuda and I can sure feel the difference on a hard braking corner, sway bar and all.
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I probly should have added that I don't drive agressively or hard on the street. If I started throwing it hard into the corners it would be different. All I'm saying is it drives fine in normal driving, and the ride quity is decent.I get annoyed by arm chair quarterbacks telling people how to do something without actually doing it themselves. The internet is full of them. I'm offering my input based on experience and real world results. BTW the car does 60 fts of 1.63 and has run a best of 11.48@116 in total street trim, pump gas and no power adders. It even has the original power steering. I drive to the track and let the air out of the drag radials down to 20 psi and get in the staging lanes, race, then air the tires back up and drive home. All with the skinny bars that a bunch of guys said are way too weak. They are wrong.
 
You can have your opinion, but like I said I wouldn't drive a slant car with slant bars. It's NOT about aggressive driving, it's about driving, being able to comfortably take a turn at something above 5 mph. Your annoyance is just too bad. Some of us want something MORE than just straight line out of our cars and if you've ever taken the time to read anything I've written, my comments are about what I WANT OUT OF A CAR.
 
Jim Lusk said:
You can have your opinion, but like I said I wouldn't drive a slant car with slant bars. It's NOT about aggressive driving, it's about driving, being able to comfortably take a turn at something above 5 mph. Your annoyance is just too bad. Some of us want something MORE than just straight line out of our cars and if you've ever taken the time to read anything I've written, my comments are about what I WANT OUT OF A CAR.
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Have you driven a big block A body with the six cylinder bars? You sound just like the other guys telling me it's necessary to change them. I don't charge into corners but I also don't have to slow to a crawl to turn either. The car drives just like a typical small block A body as far as ride and handling. Aside from the abundant power it feels like a normal 1970 passenger car. It handles driveway aprons no problem and like I said the front end does not dive like I was warned it would. The iron head big Chevy GM intermediates I built all were dangerous untill I put stiff springs in them and even then they handled terrible. This car is very different than those cars.
 
I am doing the same swap as you a light weight B motor with Glass hood, another 30-40 lbs off the front of the nose. I am not going road racing , so i will start with the 6 bars and see what its like? i have a set of 340 bars i can swap if i need too.
 
My slant car handled like **** with slant bars. There's a reason people suggest swapping them out... One day in what will probably be the distant future, you will swap out your bars for big bars and put your palm to your fore head and imagine red Forman speaking to you....
 

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OK everyone, nevermind what I'm telling you and listen to the other guys. Even though I did it and am not experiencing super dangerous handling and ride, because these "experts" said so you must put bigger bars in your big block A bodies, you must do what they say. Follow the sheep my friends.
 
Your aluminum parts on the engine dropped the weight down to small block weight. I had a Duster with a /6 to V8 swap done. No sway bars. It wasn't to bad but not a great handler. Normal driving is fine. Spirted straight line driving is fine. 1st corner at speed sucked.

You notation is noted. And your right, to a degree, the T bar need not be changed. The. Again, grandma type driving is all I would recomend. For a better ride and handling, up grade your bars. First turn you make in an emergency, and you'll be saying "I should have listened!" Because you should have listened.

SURE! Claim all you want what you say and swear you'll never ever drive drive beyond grand Ma speed, but why oh why install a big block? The worst thing here is your testament just might be followed by the inexperienced to there own harm filled ending.
 
Here's another way of looking at it. It's very easy to swap the bars. If you try what I'm saying and you find it unacceptable, you can always swap them out.
 
Have a 440 in a 69 Cuda that was originally a 340 Formula S car it is a dual purpose car that runs 10:18's thru the muffs, batteries in the trunk but it's iron headed. It still has the small torsion bars on it and on more then one occasion it has almost gotten away from me on the street. Do you have to upgrade the bars? No but there's lots of things you don't have to do. From personal experience I plan on adding the larger bars just for piece of mind and to make the car more manageable on the street.
My two cents!
 
Doosterfy said:
Here's another way of looking at it. It's very easy to swap the bars. If you try what I'm saying and you find it unacceptable, you can always swap them out.
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I don't think you understand the point that the rest of us are trying to make. Most of us find the stock torsion bars unacceptable PERIOD. With ANY engine combination, including the engine those bars were intended for. These cars were horribly undersprung from the factory, be it /6's with /6 bars or V8's with V8 bars, they aren't enough. They NEVER were. Can you drive them like that? Of course you can. Can you drive them without constantly bottoming your suspension at anything other than 4wd ride height? No, you can't. Can take corners without massive amounts of body roll? No. Does that effect your ability to stop, make quick corrections, and avoid accidents? Absolutely.

And yes, I drove my challenger with its stock V8 bars and its 318. And yes, I drove my 71 Dart with its stock 340 bars (318 w/ AC). And I even drove my /6 Duster with its stock /6 bars. They were all horrible. Let me repeat, HORRIBLE. Thousands and thousands of these cars were wiped out because of big power and marginal control.

I even upgraded my Duster to 1" torsion bars when I went to a 318. And you know what? They were still too soft for "aggressive" handling. Fine for street driving. But I now have 1.12" torsion bars in my Duster, even with headers, aluminum intake, aluminum radiator, and manual steering, no AC, aluminum master cylinder, cobra calipers, etc, etc. And I still run large aftermarket sway bars. And that's with a 340 and an 833.

You can do a lot of things and get away with it for awhile. It doesn't make it the right way to do it.
 
Doosterfy said:
Have you driven a big block A body with the six cylinder bars? You sound just like the other guys telling me it's necessary to change them. I don't charge into corners but I also don't have to slow to a crawl to turn either. The car drives just like a typical small block A body as far as ride and handling. Aside from the abundant power it feels like a normal 1970 passenger car. It handles driveway aprons no problem and like I said the front end does not dive like I was warned it would. The iron head big Chevy GM intermediates I built all were dangerous untill I put stiff springs in them and even then they handled terrible. This car is very different than those cars.
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No, I haven't. BUT, I have driven a couple of 273 cars with 273 torsion bars and no front sway bar. I will NEVER leave a car like that again. The bare minimum I will live with is the stock small block handling package. I also did not notice what was wrong with the first one (66 Dart GT, 273 2-barrel, 10" drums, 13" wheels) UNTIL I got ahold of Lee's (LilCuda) 66 Barracuda in 1980. Talk about night and day difference. Lee has taken it several steps farther.

If your car doesn't dive, I'm very interested in two things. The shocks being used AND the space between the LCA bumpers and frame...
 
Jim Lusk said:
If your car doesn't dive, I'm very interested in two things. The shocks being used AND the space between the LCA bumpers and frame...
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I thought about that after I finished my reply. I bet he's sitting on the bumpstops.
 
You know what. I'm going to get bigger bars and try them to see for myself. Won't be till next year because the car is in storage. I admit that I have not driven a car with the bigger bars so I don't know what it will feel like. I do know what a dangerous nose heavy car feels like as I mentioned with my experience with iron head big Chevy intermediates and those were bad. I simply don't feel that feeling with this car.
 
Doosterfy said:
Here's another way of looking at it. It's very easy to swap the bars.
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That's my thoughts on the subject. I'm putting a 440 in my Dart and am leaving the /6 AC bars in just the the Hemi Darts had. I live in the country and don't need to worry about traffic so much. I figure I can always swap them out if its too soft. I totally get the safety factor, but I'm going to use what I have first. I will have the 11 3/4" dics and 11" drums (over kill I know, but it's what I have). A sway bar add on is also on the list of might be getting. I guess I've driven so many pos's that im used to a car that leans a bit/lot.
 
You could continue using the 9 inch drum brakes all around too but that's not wise either.
Torsion bar a long tempered steel stick. It will slowly bow with age/wear. If you take them out and roll them on a table/flat surface you can see the bow. They will break in half too. Smaller/weaker/older it is, sooner it fails.
 
I have dropped a big block in a slant six car before and drove it with the original slant six drum brakes and T-bars and all.

Some people make too much of it, sometimes you just gotta run what you brung. I never had a problem with it. Regardless what engine or suspension is in the car, you will do yourself a favor and go out to an empty parking lot and get to know your car. When you truly know how it will react and handle, then you can drive it the way it wants and will work the best for you and your car and then you can make adjustments as you go.

Too many people use bigger brakes and so called upgrades to compensate for lack of driving skill. Just know your car inside out and backwards and don't try to drive it like a Ferrari that its not and you will be fine. I have driven slant six drums in Denver traffic and I found that when you pay attention, you wont run into anything.
 
I hear Ya Rani. I just did a /6 - 400. For the time being for now, I'll have to run the /6 bars and the 9 inch drums up front. 11 in here in the rear. But! LOL, I'll not be driving far or hard with the car like that.
For me it is more of a brake upgrade issue. The T bars can stay since this Duster is more of a drag effort.
For the street every day driver, in my heart I can't advise it.
 
RaniDart70 said:
I have dropped a big block in a slant six car before and drove it with the original slant six drum brakes and T-bars and all.

Some people make too much of it, sometimes you just gotta run what you brung. I never had a problem with it. Regardless what engine or suspension is in the car, you will do yourself a favor and go out to an empty parking lot and get to know your car. When you truly know how it will react and handle, then you can drive it the way it wants and will work the best for you and your car and then you can make adjustments as you go.

Too many people use bigger brakes and so called upgrades to compensate for lack of driving skill. Just know your car inside out and backwards and don't try to drive it like a Ferrari that its not and you will be fine. I have driven slant six drums in Denver traffic and I found that when you pay attention, you wont run into anything.
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Well said i Do exactly what you do. Thanks for posting this.
 
read the real life info on the factory BB a bodies... ( ya gotta go back a few decades).. blow a tire ( yea, sorry tires back then) at speed and it will immediately switch ends!! really....
I have done the BB into the slant cars, owned original BB cudas, rolled a 66 coronet, I planted a 440 in. doing a little tune, goin down gravel road maybe 40, hit a patch of fresh gravel, rolled it!!! maybe same would have happened if I HAD replaced the 6 torsion bars? don't know.
driving down the road????? early factory built 383 cuda without a BIG front sway bar,, totally inadequate..... I say from experience.....
now ya do what ya like. ya I have driven quite a few projects where I transplanted the SB and BB into a slant car, but I sure recognized the possibilities of danger driving down a windy road!!! like the gu y says, bigger TB aren't that hard or expensive to get and install......
and like they say..... brakes???? the nine inches were considered adequate back in the day.... but now, we KNOW they don't stop like it really should. yea I will drive mine with 9's until I can afford an upgrade, but I do realize that the stopping distance is NOT good!!! LOL
I was paying attention when I have hit 3 deer in last 3 years!!!! LOL O K I was in my truck, good barkes but a little heavy!???? LOL
 
MoparDaddy said:
My slant car handled like **** with slant bars. There's a reason people suggest swapping them out... One day in what will probably be the distant future, you will swap out your bars for big bars and put your palm to your fore head and imagine red Forman speaking to you....
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One thing I never do is go on internet forms and call someone a dumass and/or post pictures I found on the net to further assert the name calling. It's stupid and immature to do so. I prefer to keep forums like this technical and not resort to school kid mud slinging. I have a good memory also and at some point you may be looking for info or a part that I have. I like helping people but will not help you or others like you.3
 
This is a good debate. I like this. Now I want to do some testing and share the results. Next year I'm getting bigger bars and installing them. If the car handles and rides much better AND it still hooks and 60fts in the 1.6s then I will consider the big bar camp 100% correct. We shall see. If the car will not hook and 60 ft, I'll probly go back to the skinny bars. I simply don't do things because people say it's necessary, I have to experiment and see things for myself. Too many times when I was younger I followed what people told me had to be done only to find it was either not necessary or counter productive.
 
Jim Lusk said:
No, I haven't. BUT, I have driven a couple of 273 cars with 273 torsion bars and no front sway bar. I will NEVER leave a car like that again. The bare minimum I will live with is the stock small block handling package. I also did not notice what was wrong with the first one (66 Dart GT, 273 2-barrel, 10" drums, 13" wheels) UNTIL I got ahold of Lee's (LilCuda) 66 Barracuda in 1980. Talk about night and day difference. Lee has taken it several steps farther.

If your car doesn't dive, I'm very interested in two things. The shocks being used AND the space between the LCA bumpers and frame...
Click to expand...

The shocks are Competition Engineering 3 way adjustable. I started in the middle setting which I think is 70/30. I switched to the loosest setting which I believe is 90/10 and could not tell any difference at all on the street or drag strip. IDK if the adjustments effect both compression and rebound. IDK offhand the clearnce with the bumpers but I will say I have not felt the car hit them. Also worth noting, I have Cal Trac mono leaf springs with Cal Trac bars in the rear. The springs seem to be fairly stiff. The car launches beautifully and stays right in the groove with very little steering required during drag runs. Of all the cars I driven down the track this is by far the best and most stable one yet.
 
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