GM HEI mopar dizzy hybrid

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moparmat2000

moparmat2000

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I know we have been here before, i am doing the GM HEI module upgrade to a 1974 Mopar V8 electronic distributor. Got some cool ideas and such that i will put into a buildup/modify thread when i am done.

Heres the question. When y'all swap in GM modules, do y'all just run stock modules?

Have any of you run the performance modules instead?

Looks like theres one by moroso, pertronics, and Accel.

If so how much better than the stock modules were they?

Also any of you swap in lighter advance springs from either mopar performance or mr gasket for a faster mechanical advance curve?

Thanks in advance
Matt
 
Myself I run a stock module. I have never read anywhere were the performance ones are better. I know there is a fancy new one coming out that has a rev limiter built into it.. For the money a stock one does great IMO.

Also yes, I picked up the Mr. Gasket spring kit from Summit for Mopar... not the GM one.. LOL and swapped in lighter springs to bring the mechanical in faster. I think Im all in now by 2400.... its been awhile I cant quite remember..
 
straightlinespeed said:
Myself I run a stock module. I have never read anywhere were the performance ones are better. I know there is a fancy new one coming out that has a rev limiter built into it.. For the money a stock one does great IMO.
Click to expand...

This is the case as far as I can tell also.

As far as I can tell the aftermarket "Performance" modules are not genuine GM parts, so I personally believe they are probably Chinese made and not as reliable.

The ONLY reason I would use an aftermarket module in my 8 pin HEI system was if I wanted the rev limit function of the Ignitor 3.
Problem is, that it would require a modded aftermarket or OEM points distibutor to run it.
Otherwise it would have to be mounted outside the distributor like we do on the HEI kits at www.classichei.com
But then you wouldn't have to remove the distr cap to set or change rev limits either. :D
(But you can't do that because it HAS to trigger off the distr rotor so it MUST be inside the distributor.)

I'm almost positive the ignitor 3 is a Hall effect triggered system, so there may also be issue's there, but they do advertise it as able to replace points.
I am working on it though, and want to put one inside a currenly electronic distributor.

At classichei.com we have been on the hunt for an HEI capable system with rev limiter inside an OEM distributor for $200 or under but it isn't looking good yet.
Once you add the price of the HEI capable coil that puts it around $250 if a person did it themselves. (beyond that in cost and you might as well buy and MSD box)
 
straightlinespeed said:
Myself I run a stock module. I have never read anywhere were the performance ones are better. I know there is a fancy new one coming out that has a rev limiter built into it.. For the money a stock one does great IMO.
Click to expand...

This is the case as far as I can tell also.

As far as I can tell the aftermarket "Performance" modules are not genuine GM parts, so I personally believe they are probably Chinese made and not as reliable.

The ONLY reason I would use an aftermarket module in my 8 pin HEI system was if I wanted the rev limit function of the Ignitor 3.
Problem is, that it would require a modded, aftermarket or OEM points distibutor to run it, because they don't make one to fit inside our OEM electronic distributors. (The Ignitor 3 HAS to be inside the distributor) because it triggers off the distr rotor.
I'm almost positive the ignitor 3 is a Hall effect triggered system, so there may also be issue's there, but they do advertise it as able to replace points.

At classichei.com we have been on the hunt for an HEI capable system with rev limiter inside an OEM distributor for $200 or under but it isn't looking good yet.
Once you add the price of the replacement distr and HEI capable coil that puts it around $250 if a person did it themselves. (beyond that in cost and you might as well buy and MSD box)
 
There are several factory GM HEI module types. See the megasquirt site for much info. The 8-pin is simplest and best wiring, if you use the GM external coil that goes with it (TrailBeast kit or junkyard). You can pay much more for a module with a red (MSD) or yellow (Accel) label if you want, and they are happy to take your money. Don't know if you get anything different. The spark from a standard module is strong enough to hurt you. I think better to put extra money into a spare module for the glovebox.

Re distributor springs. I don't care what the distributor does since I plan an engine controller for all my cars (Holley Commander 950), which can command spark advance, and is real simple with an 8-pin module. It can also rev limit by retarding spark at high rpm (I recall).
 
Years ago MISF ("My Infamous Scout Friend") bought a "DynaMod" supposed hi-po HEI module. Their claim was no loss in dwell angle and his 400 Pontiac was falling over starting at about 4k rpm. We tested that against a known to be GM OEM HEI module. Both had 45° dwell at idle. The GM module lost dwell angle, was down to about 30° at 4500 rpm (as high as we were willing to freewheel either engine). The DynaMod still had 45° dwell at 4500 rpm.

No idea if this is still true. That was about 20 years ago now. I feel old.......
 
The factory GM modules are far superior to anything else. At least they used to be. We used to use Mighty Auto Parts at a tire/mechanic chain I worked for. Even their top of the line parts were the most cheapest horriblest parts ever. We learned quick and stuck with GM and the comebacks for failed parts on GM cars disappeared. Unless GM has changed something, I would stick with the GM unit. They were already performance. You ever been hit by an HEI plug wire? It'll knock your d!ck in the dirt.
 
RustyRatRod said:
The factory GM modules are far superior to anything else. At least they used to be. We used to use Mighty Auto Parts at a tire/mechanic chain I worked for. Even their top of the line parts were the most cheapest horriblest parts ever. We learned quick and stuck with GM and the comebacks for failed parts on GM cars disappeared. Unless GM has changed something, I would stick with the GM unit. They were already performance. You ever been hit by an HEI plug wire? It'll knock your d!ck in the dirt.
Click to expand...


LOL
Benn a bit since I heard or said that phrase, but it's nice to see it's still around and being used well. :D
 
I heard the OEM HEI (like the Mopar boxes) pull dwell at higher RPMs and even break up after 5K. Most aftermarket (hi-po marketed) dont but are not as reliable. inside those HEI modules are just circuits you can breadboard with good components if you care to.
electronic+ig+3.png
 
I got a new aftermarket module made by Standard off a buddy of mine. He just gave it to me so i am not gonna complain. Just like when your friend offers ya a beer, even if its not your brand you drink it LOL.

I also like the look of a stock coil, but read that the HEI solid state coils have a primary winding between .3 to.5 ohms and that the HEI requires this. Allowing the coil to charge up and discharge quicker. Our oil filled coils have a primary of 1.5 to 2.0 ohms which when run without a ballast resistor,will overheat an oil filled coil

I dont like the look of the solid state "block" coils, however the pertronix igniter lll # 44011 coil, is a cylindrical coil like a stock mopar one, but has .32 ohms in its primary, and outputs 45,000 volts.

I think that ought to work fine.

Btw i found that a GM SI series altetnator plug fits perfectly for the Batt , Coil side of a GM module. Going to make a tab arrangement for the plug so it can only fit one way onto the module.

I also made an adaptor plug to run the mopar pickup plug to the HEI W&G side of the module. I prefer it all to be plug n play as well as ID10T proofed. no custom splicing on the the pickup, no single spades that can be reversed on accident.

Speaking of pickup modules. I ohmed out the module on the dist i am rebuilding. The engine ran when i pulled it, so i know the pickup is good. It ohmed at .43 ohms blk/org wires

I also had a pickup out of an 85 fifth ave. It read .27 ohms. Blk/gry wires. Is there more of an advantagr with one or the other based on the coil resistance i am getting? I dunno what a GM dist pickup ohms at, but i would imagine it would be important to duplicate the signal strength.

Matt
 
In the early-mid 90's I was messing around with putting electronic ign on a friend's I-H Scout. I tried to use a Stinger conversion pick-up with an HEI 4 pin module, but didn't get consistent spark. Signal strength was the first thing that I checked and I found that the GM inductor assem. output a pretty consistent 1 VDC while the Stinger parts were usually less than that, so I put a whole Ford D-S II system in the stock I-H dizzy body and he has not had a problem since (other than when the pick-up wires made contact with the spinning reluctor).

Fast-forward to a couple months ago I did the HEI module conversion in prep for going to a TBI on the Valiant's / 170. Worked fine right up until, but not past when I cooked the JY module from trying to use copper based anti-seize for the thermal grease. Still running on a new CarQuest module, with thermal grease in place.

The ironic thing is that the Stinger Conversions used Mopar pick-ups and their reluctors looked to be extremely similar to Mopar parts. So my old problem probably wasn't a signal strength problem. I'd hazard a guess that it was a coil impedance mismatch problem, but I don't really know.
 
How about the nylon thrust collar with the washer and roll pin for the dist shaft. I went to my local dodge dealer and was told its serviced in the distributor assembly. I cant seem to find this aftermarket either. I used to be able to buy the slant 6 one and cut it down for V8 use. Anybody ever have to get one if these? Where did you get it from, mfg , part # . My other option is to bribe a machinest friend to make me one out of aluminum using the broken one i have that i super glued together so he has a template.

Anybody hazard a guess on the O ring too?

Thanks
Matt
 
Not a big fan of pep boyz in the hood, went there years ago got shitty service , never went back. Recently i went to the one in my town again after boycotting it almost 16 years. I was pleasently surprised the one in my city actually had a pretty good speed shop few aisles. Of course mostly shevy stuff, but they did have ARP products, hurst, MSD, Accel, edelbrock, and many others. I was able to order a set of Mr gasket advance springs for about $10, they also had duplicolor engine paint in chrysler red. prices were pretty decent inline with what summit or jegs sells a lot of this stuff for.

I guess i will have to go there more often.

Matt
 
moparmat2000 said:
... I dont like the look of the solid state "block" coils, however the pertronix igniter lll # 44011 coil, is a cylindrical coil like a stock mopar one ...
Click to expand...
For those who want to stay Mopar, consider the coil from a Magnum engine. It is E-core type, but more work to wire to a GM 8-pin module.

moparmat2000 said:
Btw i found that a GM SI series altetnator plug fits perfectly for the Batt , Coil side of a GM module. Going to make a tab arrangement for the plug so it can only fit one way onto the module.
Click to expand...
Much easier is to take the GM cables at the junkyard. One cable goes from the 8-pin module to their "external coil" - simple plug & play. You only need to wire +12 V to their thick red wire and use their tach output (white wire), if desired.

moparmat2000 said:
I also made an adaptor plug to run the mopar pickup plug to the HEI W&G side of the module. I prefer it all to be plug n play as well as ID10T proofed. no custom splicing on the the pickup, no single spades that can be reversed on accident.
Click to expand...
I did similar. Get the special pickup connector, snipping the GM wires right at their pickup coil. Wire to a double-bullet connector to plug to the Mopar distributor pickup. But, polarity matters (use a timing light to verify it sparks w/ reluctor teeth are aligned). Also, not all dbl bullet connectors work. Some have short male terminals that barely contact.
 
I actually prefer a module or box that pulls timing at high RPM. Cylinder pressure goes higher and higher. So to have some timing retard at high RPM to me is a good thing. Means more protection against spark knock.
 
RRR,
A reasonable thing to want, but we felt that dwell angle reduction was a bit much. Swapping to a module that didn't lose dwell angle increased engine performance above ~4k RPM, so right or wrong thing to do it was clearly happening too soon.
 
No need to get an Ecoil unless you want to junkyard shop on the cheap, and dont care if its not somewhst stock looking. The pertronix ignitor lll # 44011 has a .32 ohm primary winding which is within the parameter of what you need to fire an HEI system, plus its a metal cylindrical coil that looks just like a factory one, will even fit inside the factory coil bracket right on the engine. I have found the pertronix ignitor lll for roughly $40. The cost alone may be a factor for some folks making a junkyard E coil at $10 a bit more attractive

I did similar. Get the special pickup connector, snipping the GM wires right at their pickup coil. Wire to a double-bullet connector to plug to the Mopar distributor pickup. But, polarity matters (use a timing light to verify it sparks w/ reluctor teeth are aligned). Also, not all dbl bullet connectors work. Some have short male terminals that barely contact.[/QUOTE]

Every wiring schematic i looked at online shows the black wire on the mopar magnetic pickup going to the small spade on the HEI module, so this is how i wired my adaptor up. If its incorrect i have a bunch of new packard 56 terminals, i can just repin it.
 
Another question,

The GM HEI also ran a noise supressor condensor. A lot of guys are wiring their own versions of the GM mopar hybrid setup. Is anybody using a noise supressor condensor. I know later mopar electronic ignitions used to attach these right to the coil instead of putting them inside the dist.

Matt
 
moparmat2000 said:
Another question,

The GM HEI also ran a noise supressor condensor. A lot of guys are wiring their own versions of the GM mopar hybrid setup. Is anybody using a noise supressor condensor. I know later mopar electronic ignitions used to attach these right to the coil instead of putting them inside the dist.

Matt
Click to expand...

I did not when I did my own.
 
moparmat2000 said:
Another question,

The GM HEI also ran a noise supressor condensor. A lot of guys are wiring their own versions of the GM mopar hybrid setup. Is anybody using a noise supressor condensor. I know later mopar electronic ignitions used to attach these right to the coil instead of putting them inside the dist.

Matt
Click to expand...

The suppressor capacitor is already in the module.
 
Ok cool, the only reason i asked is the junk one i got the plug off of had one of these insidethe distributer body. Looked like an old timey points condensor.
 
I've always run the D.U.I. (Davis Unified Ignition) HEI's in my dirt cars. Had it on my engine builders distributor dyno and it never missed a beat up to 8k RPM. I've turned it to 8,300 one night in the dirt car and it never skipped a lick. I kept the distributor and LIVE Wires when I sold the car and will be taking the guts out of it and putting it in the Mopar/HEI housing soon as I get a chance. I dunno what they do to their stuff... but I've never had an HEI work well at all above about 5,500 without starting to fall off.
 
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