Crank is shot, do I stroke it or not?

-
Maybe I miss read the earlier post where it was quoted the difference between the 2 builds by Brian was $850 (post #30)..... No overall price has been quoted for either build, just the difference, I did say "Extra 800" - I should have said "Extra 850"

The rest of the build is going to be the same other than the difference in cost between the Scat stroker cast crank, new pistons and Scat rods and the remanufactured stock stroke crank, new pistons and remanufactured stock rods.

If it's going to be internally balanced as a stroker you would rebalance the flywheel and add a neutral balancer at the same time the rest of the rotating assembly is balanced, should be little difference in balancing cost to do the flywheel at the same time as the rest.

The guy's not trying to build a motor with worked heads etc... his choice is go for a mild 360 rebuild or a mild rebuild with 4" stroke for an "extra $850" over the cost of the stock stroke build with Brian doing both builds.

Cheers
Jamie

I was being a bit sarcastic for all the folks saying you need to spend MINIMUM of $8,000 for a stroker and it won't be worth it if you don't spend $1200 on aluminum heads then $1000 on port work then $$$$ on Harland Sharp rockers then add custom pushrods.
Almost forgot about the titanium Ferrea valves.
Those too will be custom, Chevy-sized and tuliped

And you MUST have a forged crank, rods and pistons JUST IN CASE you want to add a 200 shot of No2 down the line or rev past 7,000rpm


Not everyone wants or needs an all out race motor or their motor to built to triple-zero race specs.
All I need is about I guess 400 ponies to scoot my 4,800 pound truck along and keep up with the Panamera that's riding my tail at 72mph on 45 headed north to Dallas.
from what I can tell a CAST stroker crank and STOCK heads with a medium cam can get me there. 4.10 gears behind the 46RH i already have and I should be good.

Some say it can be done with stock stroke and KB107 but then I don't like revving my engine that high. I doubt I rarely see over 4,000 rpm in any vehicle I drive (except for a motorcycle of course).



Building engines is like buying boats.
Everyone swears you need a 28 foot center console Contender with twin 250 Yammis just to go bass fishing or stay in the bay "JUST IN CASE" you want to run 200 miles offshore to catch those Pelagics.

In the hunting world it's YETI or go home
even if you just need to keep that case of Natty Light chilled for a few hours while tailgating
 
I didn't think actual dollar amount of the builds was important, but I think it's my fault for not stating that the cost for each build was already quoted as a complete deliverable.

Well, I for one thought you were restricted to a limited budget, sort of.

From what you are saying here, you have seen both dollar amounts and can do either one.

If that's the case, it's a no brainer, stroker. But, with that said, you're gonna need something out back for strength and traction.

BTW, who needs paint, going fast will make you forget all about that.
 
I've built more than a couple of these. I think if we were "building [strictly] for the CAR" then the extra $850 could go into other stuff, and the 360 will make damn near exactly the same power with the same given heads and camshaft. Personally I don;t think it will end at $850 by the time the engine is in the car and the driving.
This boils down to the OP making a cost vs reward decision to this: Do you want to spend $850 for the ability to say you have a stroker, and the in-car reality that it performs like a mild 360 in terms of performance and driveability? Because that's what I glean from Brian's comments.
 
I've built more than a couple of these. I think if we were "building [strictly] for the CAR" then the extra $850 could go into other stuff, and the 360 will make damn near exactly the same power with the same given heads and camshaft. Personally I don;t think it will end at $850 by the time the engine is in the car and the driving.
This boils down to the OP making a cost vs reward decision to this: Do you want to spend $850 for the ability to say you have a stroker, and the in-car reality that it performs like a mild 360 in terms of performance and driveability? Because that's what I glean from Brian's comments.

Actually, what I meant was the 4" crank combo will outperform the 360, especially with the rear gear he has now.
If it were mine, I would go with the 4" crank, you get a lot more TQ at a very low rpm (great for tall gearing), quicker acceleration due to much lighter I beam rod, plus the crank and rods are BRAND NEW! Not to mention the piston gets a bunch lighter too so now you have a very quick revving engine that accelerates the car much better...just don't see a down side other than the extra cost which is minimal in my eyes.
As for the flywheel, I'll gladly exchange the 360 flywheel for a 318 flywheel!
 
Sorry Brian, I respect the hell out of you, but with that cam and head combo you won't get "a lot more torque". It will make peak torque a little lower in terms of rpms, and even that won't be overly dramatically different without changing the cam at least. 10% more stroke will drop a few hundred rpm, but a 360 with that cam makes great torque right off idle. That's really what we're talking here. Lighter internals won't mean **** with a 30lbs flywheel and mild gearing other than it will rev higher. Run the 360, and stick an aluminum flywheel on it if you want it to rev faster.
 
This comment may keep this thread on a flywheel left turn, but I thought I had read other threads in the past about the difference between - I'm going to go out on a limb here - inertia and momentum as compared to high revving (light vs. heavy flywheel) I don't know I forgot what that was all about.:dontknow:
 
For me, the shortblock is what I'd concentrate on for now. I'd go with a stroker, torque is a wonderful thing. For that cam, I think the headers/rear/carb/etc you have would be fine. Yeah, the one-legger rear might spin more. The 8.25 might not last as long as the 8.75. Blah blah lol.
Do the stroker shortblock, spend what you need to on that, and enjoy it. Use whatever heads you can afford. Alot of people forget the heads/cam/rear etc can be upgraded anytime down the road, without alot of downtime. You don't have to place every upgrade you "might" need into your immediate budget.
If it were me, I'd build the stroker with what you have.
 
If it were mine, I would go with the 4" crank, you get a lot more TQ at a very low rpm (great for tall gearing), quicker acceleration due to much lighter I beam rod, plus the crank and rods are BRAND NEW! Not to mention the piston gets a bunch lighter too so now you have a very quick revving engine that accelerates the car much better...just don't see a down side other than the extra cost which is minimal in my eyes.
As for the flywheel, I'll gladly exchange the 360 flywheel for a 318 flywheel!


Joey, there's your answer right there.
 
Sorry Brian, I respect the hell out of you, but with that cam and head combo you won't get "a lot more torque". It will make peak torque a little lower in terms of rpms, and even that won't be overly dramatically different without changing the cam at least. 10% more stroke will drop a few hundred rpm, but a 360 with that cam makes great torque right off idle. That's really what we're talking here. Lighter internals won't mean **** with a 30lbs flywheel and mild gearing other than it will rev higher. Run the 360, and stick an aluminum flywheel on it if you want it to rev faster.

How can I say this...uh....your wrong. At 2000-2500rpm the 4" crank will be up about 30-40lb.ft. more and still make more at peak and past peak.
And yes the lighter rotator will make a very noticeable difference. You just have to know your way around these things!
I do have ways of measuring output...I'm gonna leave this one alone as once again naysayers would like to stir the $hit pot :wack:
 
A 360 with stock heads and that 268, air gap , 9.5:1 will make about 390-400# of torque.

A 408 with the same set up will make 435-450ish.
 
It is really simple when you examine output per cube. The last relatively mild 360 (367) I built made 427 ft/lbs which is 1.163 ft/lbs per cube--ramp that up to a 408 and you get almost 475 ft/lbs. + 50 ft/lbs is SIGNIFICANT especially with that 2.76 gearing. Just be aware that the stroker WILL snowball and it WILL wind up far more expensive than you think. If budget is really the deciding factor then stock stroke 360 it is. J.Rob
 
I thought this was a (respectful) discussion? It's a "stirred pot" because the options given were yours to your customer, and he asked questions about them on an open forum. Not because the options lack merit.

I am curious since you brought it up - how much does only reducing the rotating and reciprocating masses effect the torque output on a mild build between the start of the pull and 5K? With some time I could calculate it given the parts list but if you've already done that particular experiement I'd love to see it.

RAMM - My generalization was just that - simplifying to clarify the idea to more people. I am not debating whether a 4" arm will produce more torque at a lower rpm or more at peak. With respect to your builds - what parts would be different in order to complete the respective packages and attain the levels we're talking about? the OP posed the restriction of reusing everything but the crank, rods, and pistons. To me that means much of the possibility of the larger stroke goes untapped and therein lies my disagreement with the builder. In my opinion it will take adjustment of parts choices, otherwise known as spending more money, to realize that potential. In this I think you and I agree. In my experience, and based on the majority of my customers the single biggest issue is money. It's the most important part of the puzzle.

I have no dog in this fight. I don't own the car, nor am I pocketing any cash for building it.
-Naysayer©
 
I thought this was a (respectful) discussion? It's a "stirred pot" because the options given were yours to your customer, and he asked questions about them on an open forum. Not because the options lack merit.

I am curious since you brought it up - how much does only reducing the rotating and reciprocating masses effect the torque output on a mild build between the start of the pull and 5K? With some time I could calculate it given the parts list but if you've already done that particular experiement I'd love to see it.

RAMM - My generalization was just that - simplifying to clarify the idea to more people. I am not debating whether a 4" arm will produce more torque at a lower rpm or more at peak. With respect to your builds - what parts would be different in order to complete the respective packages and attain the levels we're talking about? the OP posed the restriction of reusing everything but the crank, rods, and pistons. To me that means much of the possibility of the larger stroke goes untapped and therein lies my disagreement with the builder. In my opinion it will take adjustment of parts choices, otherwise known as spending more money, to realize that potential. In this I think you and I agree. In my experience, and based on the majority of my customers the single biggest issue is money. It's the most important part of the puzzle.

I have no dog in this fight. I don't own the car, nor am I pocketing any cash for building it.
-Naysayer©

So that you understand, it was my customer that asked me about going with a 4" crank...not the other way around....
 
Great discussion guys. It's all definitely helping me.

This weekend I asked both my ex-father-in-law and my ex-mother-in-law what they would do.

He use to build Super Comp B Econo dragsters in the 80's and early 90's with Bill Maropulos, and she used to race them. She's gone faster than I every will (over 180 MPH) down the 1/4 mile. She also used to work for Ross Racing Pistons as a sales person. That's how I worked there for a bit too.

Anyway, it's a case of ask 5 different people and you get 5 different answers. He said, "Build a 360, you're not racing anyway." She said, "Stroker for sure!" Hah!

While I have been reading the replies, I've been doing my homework and pricing out what it would cost to rebuild the rear ends and add either a SureGrip or a True Trac diff. Well, obviously I'd only rebuild one of them but the deciding factor will be which engine route I take. I've also been running numbers on gearing calculators with different tire sizes.

Trying to do all the research I can to build a balanced drive train as a whole.
 
Think of it another way. Better to have done it, then questioned why you didn't. Don't settle. If the thought is already in your head, then will you kick yourself if you didn't do it.
Ever come to Phoenix? One ride and your mind will be made up, guaranteed.
 
RAMM - My generalization was just that - simplifying to clarify the idea to more people. I am not debating whether a 4" arm will produce more torque at a lower rpm or more at peak. With respect to your builds - what parts would be different in order to complete the respective packages and attain the levels we're talking about? the OP posed the restriction of reusing everything but the crank, rods, and pistons. To me that means much of the possibility of the larger stroke goes untapped and therein lies my disagreement with the builder. In my opinion it will take adjustment of parts choices, otherwise known as spending more money, to realize that potential. In this I think you and I agree. In my experience, and based on the majority of my customers the single biggest issue is money. It's the most important part of the puzzle.

I have no dog in this fight. I don't own the car, nor am I pocketing any cash for building it.
-Naysayer©

In a case like this if the OP were my customer I would build him a torquey stock stroke 360, rebuild the heads with a pocket port job and keep the cam in the COMP 268H range. This will make as much t orque as a run of the mill 383 Chev stroker and not break the bank. Maybe while I was in the bottom end I would grind some stroker notches for a future crank upgrade. Why does it have to be the last engine the OP ever builds? Save for the future. J.Rob
 
For a streeter Redline HP is kinda irrelevant. First gear will often get you 60 mph.Its often 50 mph before the big cam engine even wakes up.
A streeter needs to deliver a lot of torque, way down low. You can do it with engine. Or you can do it with leverage.
A well built 318 can be a handful with 4.30s and a 3.09 low gear.
Imagine a teener making 350# at 2400rpm and running 4.3x3.09=4650 ftlbs out the axles. Now work it backwards with 2.76s and a std 2.66 low. That 360 will need 633 ftlbs to equal that 4650 out the axles ftlbs.But, you say what teener puts out 350@2400? Ok, work it out as 300ftlbs. That teener now puts down 3986#, and the 360 will need 543 ftlbs with your current gear-train.
OP
Around here I can buy a good used low mileage 360 smogger for $250 to $400.Even a sucked out smogger can put out 300#. That, and a set of 3.91s and a 5speed stick or a 4auto(cheap) will be a ton of fun. And you could be driving that A in a week. And if your not looking for comfortable highway cruising at low revs, the extra tranny gear(s) can be skipped. In which case I would recommend 3.73s and a 3.09Direct 4th tranny. This will get you an 11.52 starter gear. and 4000ftlbs at around 2500rpm/17mph, more than enough to blow away any pair of street tires. If you need more, (I cant see how)ride the clutch. And cruising at 60mph will be a tic under 2800rpm.
You could be into this thing for as little as 1200bucks, certainly under 2Bills. Used engine$400. New gears$400. 3.09 tranny $400.Errors and omissions; up to $800.
Put the rest of the budget into paint/bodywork and upgrades to; brakes,suspension,and steering.
Anyway that would be my plan.Just MHO.
 
For a streeter Redline HP is kinda irrelevant. First gear will often get you 60 mph.Its often 50 mph before the big cam engine even wakes up.
A streeter needs to deliver a lot of torque, way down low. You can do it with engine. Or you can do it with leverage.
A well built 318 can be a handful with 4.30s and a 3.09 low gear.
Imagine a teener making 350# at 2400rpm and running 4.3x3.09=4650 ftlbs out the axles. Now work it backwards with 2.76s and a std 2.66 low. That 360 will need 633 ftlbs to equal that 4650 out the axles ftlbs.But, you say what teener puts out 350@2400? Ok, work it out as 300ftlbs. That teener now puts down 3986#, and the 360 will need 543 ftlbs with your current gear-train.
OP
Around here I can buy a good used low mileage 360 smogger for $250 to $400.Even a sucked out smogger can put out 300#. That, and a set of 3.91s and a 5speed stick or a 4auto(cheap) will be a ton of fun. And you could be driving that A in a week. And if your not looking for comfortable highway cruising at low revs, the extra tranny gear(s) can be skipped. In which case I would recommend 3.73s and a 3.09Direct 4th tranny. This will get you an 11.52 starter gear. and 4000ftlbs at around 2500rpm/17mph, more than enough to blow away any pair of street tires. If you need more, (I cant see how)ride the clutch. And cruising at 60mph will be a tic under 2800rpm.
You could be into this thing for as little as 1200bucks, certainly under 2Bills. Used engine$400. New gears$400. 3.09 tranny $400.Errors and omissions; up to $800.
Put the rest of the budget into paint/bodywork and upgrades to; brakes,suspension,and steering.
Anyway that would be my plan.Just MHO.

this guy hits the nail on the head! a Canute? eh!!!
 
Joey doesn't care how much power the engine actually makes...I think he just wants it to run good and be very drivable...like driving to MATS and back and racing it while he's there.

At this point, if we deduct the cost of a machined 360 crank outright, and resizing the stock rods with bolts the Scat 9000 series crank and Ibeam rods are about 850.00 more.

The heads will be stock 360 heads, with 11/32 valves and guides, 1.94 x 1.60 with no port work...not in the budget.
I think for the current gearing and tire size, the stroker makes more sense! What do you guys think??
Brian

Yep.

Go stroker. Will make more or same HP as 360 but more streetable and cruise-able.

Flat tappet hyd cam, stamped rockers, etc... will save on parts cost. Same valvetrain he would use on a 360. Same intake. Maybe bigger carb?

Trick would be to get a piston combo with his heads that he could later grow into a better head if he chooses.
 
For a streeter Redline HP is kinda irrelevant. First gear will often get you 60 mph.Its often 50 mph before the big cam engine even wakes up.
A streeter needs to deliver a lot of torque, way down low. You can do it with engine. Or you can do it with leverage.

<snip>

I totally agree! Redline HP is completely useless to me. What's important is what it makes when I'm cruising along. By the way, I may have a 2.47 low gear in that trans according to what my A833 transmission rebuilder said.

In a case like this if the OP were my customer I would build him a torquey stock stroke 360, rebuild the heads with a pocket port job and keep the cam in the COMP 268H range. This will make as much torque as a run of the mill 383 Chev stroker and not break the bank. Maybe while I was in the bottom end I would grind some stroker notches for a future crank upgrade. Why does it have to be the last engine the OP ever builds? Save for the future. J.Rob

That's a good point. Putting more money into the heads on a 360 build something I thought of, but I haven't discussed.

Think of it another way. Better to have done it, then questioned why you didn't. Don't settle. If the thought is already in your head, then will you kick yourself if you didn't do it.
Ever come to Phoenix? One ride and your mind will be made up, guaranteed.

Can you explain the ride to Phoenix thing?

Yep.

Go stroker. Will make more or same HP as 360 but more streetable and cruise-able.

Flat tappet hyd cam, stamped rockers, etc... will save on parts cost. Same valvetrain he would use on a 360. Same intake. Maybe bigger carb?

Trick would be to get a piston combo with his heads that he could later grow into a better head if he chooses.

See, that's where I'm leaning towards right now. I have that same mindset too. I didn't mention it, but I also have roller rockers. We haven't determined the brand of rockers. They're probably about 7 or 8 years old (that's how long that car sat before I bought it), but they look like older style Comp Cams steel rockers.

Here's what they look like (my thread actually):

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=276688

Most of these parts are things I already had, and are being reused if they're still good.
 
So that you understand, it was my customer that asked me about going with a 4" crank...not the other way around....

He ask the whole world including us on a open forum. But for the sake of good discussion, id build the stroker version if it actually only cost me 850.00 more total.
 
He ask the whole world including us on a open forum. But for the sake of good discussion, id build the stroker version if it actually only cost me 850.00 more total.

Oh no no...what Brian meant was that he [Brian] didn't push the stroker idea on me. I actually brought it up to him initially. That's what Brian was referring to. I had some suspicions that the crank had issues, so I said I would entertain the idea of stroking the engine.

I wanted opinions on building an engine with the parts I already had on-hand, and hopefully learn from other people's experience on which route they would take. People here may have have already been in my shoes and taken the plunge, and have either regretted their decision or been happy with their decision.

That's pretty much why I posed the question.

The way I see it, it's like this. I kind of built an analogy in my head. Here it goes:

I already have a set of ingredients in the pantry to make two types of dishes. Using the same ingredients (i.e. my parts) I can make a chicken dish or a beef dish. I'm just picking which dish to make. Yeah...but then you get the guys going "Forget beef or chicken, go with Lobster! That's what you need." LOL Yeah, it's a crummy analogy but that's how I see it.

I just got an estimate this morning for the body and paint, so I'm going to start crunching some numbers.

I am kind of leaning towards the stroker though. As a few pointed out... heads, cam, headers can all be upgraded later. Maybe a year from now. I can always shove the 8 1/4" under the car while I slowly save to build up the 8 3/4" and maybe find some 2.94 gears or something. Crunching the numbers on that gear showed to be pretty good for the highway an decent for the street with a stroker. It should put me in the right RPM range for divability.

One thing not mentioned that I have no experience with is the fuel economy. I've read some guys getting up to 16 to 20 MPG on a well built 360. I wonder what a stroker with these parts would do. Of course, that all depends on vehicle weight, tires, gearing and tuning too. How many tanks of gas to Vegas from L.A.? Stuff like that crosses my mind.

Ok, back to crunching numbers.
 
A 360 Brian built for my friends got 20 mpg at 60 MPH. Car was running an OOTB 4779 750DP, auto/2500 hughes converter, 2.94 gears, 245/60/14 tires (maybe 26" tall).

Running a taller tire, getting the cruise tune better and the mpg would have been higher.

Strokers make a ton of torque down low! Run that 2.94 gear/stroker and acceleration won't be an issue.
 
-
Back
Top