Survivor? original? Or numbers matching?

This post has been triggered by another post I started and I thought it might make for an interesting subject.

I was in search for some era correct parts for a survivor car I have. Some people said it would not be original even if I got the correct part. ( no vin on the part 1970 340 exhaust manifolds with correct part # and date code)

I understand that all original would be defined as a vehicle with all original parts that came from the factory when built.

So what would a "numbers matching" car be? I understand that the body, fender tag, build sheet, engine, trans, and possibly rear end would have matching vins. But if a car had all those parts matching, but NONE era correct manifolds. Would it be classified as numbers matching? I would say no.

Let's say the same car had all original numbers matching engine, trans, body, fender tag build sheet, but the manifolds were missing. And the owner found correct date coded manifolds. Would the car then be numbers matching? I would say yes. But I have sensed some people would disagree because it didn't come from the factory with those manifolds. Even though they are correct part numbers and date codes.

So the question is...is there a difference between numbers matching and all original?? I would say Yes...but I can't figure out why, because the definition is almost the same. Thoughts?

That being said...what's the difference with all original and survivor?

I feel that all original could be a restored car with all original parts that came with or would have come with, from the factory. ( because it was restored, better condition era correct parts could have been swapped out as long as engine, trans, body, fender tag and build sheet stay the same). Even manifolds could be replaced with proper date coded and part numbered ones. Would this car be original???

Survivor would be all original parts unrestored, original interior/exterior and numbers matching engine trans body fender tag and build sheet. Unrestored.

So if a I had a survivor numbers matching engine, trans, body, fender tag, rear and build sheet vehicle, that is ONLY missing exhaust manifolds. And the I finds correct ones with correct date codes and part numbers...is that car original survivor? Numbers matching survivor? Numbers matching all original survivor? Or still just a survivor?

What if it did have the original manifolds and everything was numbers matching but the dome light cover was missing? Would I be able to replace it with a correct one and call the vehicle all original? Or numbers matching?

How big does the replacement part have to be for it NOT to be classified as an original Or numbers matching vehicle me anymore??? I would think it's just any one of those parts with a corresponding vin on it. Thought???

Lots to take in on this one...

End of the day...it's what you want to do and what you wish to call it I guess. Not that it really matters to me. All my cars are junk compared to most anyways. The mopar croud is defiantly the most judgmental car ground out there though.

Thanks.

Numbers matching has to me always meant the block and transmission case are original to the car. You could have a replaced the thermoquad with a Holley and that didn't make it not number matching anymore but no longer all original. All original would be no aftermarket parts, just wear items like brakes, tires, belts and hoses. Replacing manifolds with headers makes it not original, but then replacing the headers with correct stock manifolds makes it original again in my book even if you have no way of knowing if it was that specific set of manifolds that came on the car.
To me survivor doesn't mean anything. A survivor is a car that still exists and isn't razor blades or new refrigerators.

numbers matching is all numbered parts are on the car, i.e. motor, tranny, and the dash VIN, fender tag, build sheet and all body numbers match.

survivor is usually 85% paint plus all parts correct. normal replacement parts like belts, hoses etc are allowed to be replaced for driving safety

restored is all correct parts are there as if came from factory. not necessary for all to have date codes correct - just look correct

any car could have had a cracked manifold and be replaced for the car to function and still fit restored, survivor categories. if the part came from another car with same vintage and had correct dates to match original - then still original .

just my opinion

..'69 340 swingers used the same numbered carburetors and as long as your swinger has a carb with those numbers it would be numbers matching but not original.

In my opinion, ( and I may be incorrect ) Survivor is a car that has not been restored, repainted etc. This does not mean that repairs and maintenance hasn't been done. A survivor may have an aftermarket water pump on it for example. Original is an unmodified car, low mileage, retaining most of its "original" equipment. It retains its "original" equipment as it came from the showroom floor. Numbers matching normally means VIN. numbers. there is VIN numbers or part of VIN numbers on the dash plate, engine, transmission, on the body on the right rear quarter on the trunk opening, and I m sure other places that I am unaware of. This is my opinion , nothing else. It is how I understand it. Keep in mind there are variants in the restoration game such as "period correct" which means a car that has a era correct set of Cragar mags, and Sun tach, an era correct stereo installed. People would buy these cars with steel wheels and go straight to the mag shop for wheels. Nobody back then really ran the cars in "stock" form. There are also situations where the car may have had an engine installed under warranty a year later therefore the date code may not be correct. There are many variables to consider but that is part of the fun, figuring out the history of your vehicle.

ir3333 said:

..'69 340 swingers used the same numbered carburetors and as long as your swinger has a carb with those numbers it would be numbers matching but not original.

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Forgot about the carb...i have original

For the most part, I think we are all on the same page.

It's subjective. To me:
"Original" means just that. Original. It retains the stuff it came with when picked up from the dealership including paint with regular maintenance and minor repairs excepted. A 1972 Duster car that had everything as delievered, but worn, and with a Holley carb added rather than a Thermoquad on it - is no longer 100% orginal. A car that had the passenger's side repainted because they wiped along a retaining wall in 1973 - is no longer 100% original. A car is original only once. Also note I said as delievered - not as ordered. Dealerships changed a lot of stuff, and repaired damage many owners never saw prior to the buyer taking ownership. A survivor car would be in this group too.
"Numbers matching" means those items that have the ID number assigned to them all match. The stampings on the body, the engine, and the trans for most cars. Using the same example a '72 340 Duster with that Holley could be "numbers matching" - but not "Original".

moper said:

It's subjective. To me:
"Original" means just that. Original. It retains the stuff it came with when picked up from the dealership including paint with regular maintenance and minor repairs excepted. A 1972 Duster car that had everything as delievered, but worn, and with a Holley carb added rather than a Thermoquad on it - is no longer 100% orginal. A car that had the passenger's side repainted because they wiped along a retaining wall in 1973 - is no longer 100% original. A car is original only once. Also note I said as delievered - not as ordered. Dealerships changed a lot of stuff, and repaired damage many owners never saw prior to the buyer taking ownership. A survivor car would be in this group too.
"Numbers matching" means those items that have the ID number assigned to them all match. The stampings on the body, the engine, and the trans for most cars. Using the same example a '72 340 Duster with that Holley could be "numbers matching" - but not "Original".

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Can you not have original restored? Or restored to original?

What would you call a car that was restored using all vin matched parts and era correct parts? What would you call a restored car that had all matching vins but a couple none correct era parts? Or are they both just considered restored and in the same class to you?

I do t think there is really a right or wrong answer. Just found some really opinionated posts on my other thread so I thought I might get some different thoughts here.

I think I feel that original and numbers matching mean the exact same thing in my opinion.

Survivor is never modified.

But you could have a original survivor which would then be numbers matching.

I going back to my car. If I bought the date coded correct manifolds I would feel and not hesitate to say that the car is numbers matching and all original. But people made comments that it wouldn't be original because those were not the original manifolds.

So how big does the replacement part have to be in order for the car to loose it's original classification. Like I said. If the some light cover broke and you replaced it with era correct part with part number...know one could ever know it was replaced...same thing with proper date coded manifolds... Know one could ever find out they were not original to that car.

I know you are asking Moper, but I wanted to chime in.

I would say no, you cannot have original restored, as the car is only original once. An example of an original car today would be one that a dealership owner parked in his or her personal collection back in 1969 and the car has sat and never accumulated any miles on it. Now that the car has sat for 45 years or so, it may need some repair like tires, hoses, the stuff that goes bad from sitting. After these repairs, the vehicle then would be in my opinion, a survivor. It would be a very low mileage survivor, but a survivor nonetheless. There are two sides of the camp, one prefers "survivor" vehicles and the other prefers to "restore" to period correct or concourse correct. Both of these opinions pertain to "investors" or people who are obsessed with car values. I personally feel that in some cases the restorations turn out nicer that the original factory work, especially in body and paint categories. There are also technology improvements now, for example a 70 dart swinger 340 had dual points ignition, there is a MP Electronic conversion kit available, which one would you rather have, especially if the original Prestolite unit is bad and replacement parts are scarce. There are also the polyurethane suspension upgrades. There is just a lot better technology available today when restoring these cars. How about the sound deadener that people put under the carpet? It is pretty much standard in the hobby, would you not do it in order to be "original or correct?" Again, just an opinion and my point of view.

Just take it for what it is. Original is a car retaining its original equipment minus normal wear and tear items. Obviously numbers matching is a post 67 Mopar retaining its production drive train. As far as I'm concerned any car still on the road has clearly survived . this whole numbers and terminology has gotten stupid

I think that too many people get their nose all outta joint on this stuff. And here are a few reasons why I feel this way:

In 2003, my niece's 2001 Ram was vandalized. I got the job of repainting it. She had bought this truck new, with just 1.6 miles showing on the odometer. Upon me sanding it for a repaint, I learned that the hood and right fender had been painted and cleared no less than five times. So a proper resto on this truck years fromm now would need that, right?

Back around 1990, I parted a 1971 Fury. I sold the complete immaculate black interior to a guy who wished to change out his green. No joke, there were six broadcast sheets in that Fury. All for that car. The kicker is that two off them had the words "corrected copy" in red type in the bottom margin. Sooooo, any resto based on a broadcast sheet can now be suspect, because you may not find the "corrected copy"

Somewhere in my stash of paper work is a form I found in a 74 Swinger "Mutilations" which had a diagram of the car on it, with a few areas circled and the notation "buff". I guess assembly line correct would be to leave the dirt or whatever in the paint.

I could go on and on, but you get the point. Unless you were at the plant, built the car, and never left it out of your sight since, nobody really, truly, "knows" how it came. Long winded rant over, lol.

my take. if you look back in the mid late 80's when people had just started to get a real interest in the 'muscle" car, it was noted the mopar was a car that could be easily (ha) documented. 69 up cars with the vin on the eng, trans, body, fender and vin tags, maybe a broadcast sheet.( often missin or in wrong car, corrected etc). could be found to be "real" muscle cars. very few of thgese # cars existed even back then. most were rode hard and put up wet! oring, engine long gone.... there were the hotrod crowd, and the folks that would drop a 383 in a 65 cuda, the people that blew their 383 in the road chicken, went to the bonyard picked up plentiful 440 and changed it over!!! but the mags all jumped on the "real" # car. and the masses went on the hunt for the "in demand" year and model cars, and finding a well used up muscle car with the original drivetrain. but like I said, relatively still existed.

then along comes Galen Glovier ( Mr, Numbers), he prints his books giving all the info on decoding fender tags, casting numbers on all the relevant parts ( exh man, eng blocks, carbs, everything he could find info on). the mags feature the ultimate car to own, the #,s matching original hemi roadrunners, the 440- cudas, there were no such thing as a clone or tribute car back then.

occasionally they would find a true " survivor", original everything, right down to the belts, hoses, maybe even spark plugs. a time capsule. very few of these ever made it to that " title" obviously. then the big time rest/show car classes showed up at the Nats. SOME ( $$$ guys) people got really into restoring ( paying some high end shop) a very desirable model AND hunting all the NOS parts they could find for the resto, some well heeled people would spend tons of $$$ making their " correct" car as correct ( original) as humanily possible.) so the high end guys would try too find he correct parts to make this car correct, that is cast / part no. dated parts, NOS etc.

now the average Mopar guy back in the 90's let say, were the real backbone of the hobby. people generally that had a bunch of project cars, barn full of p[arts, and maybe one decent driver. the first moar price ceiling fell in '91 or 02. at that point all the millionaire speculators sold out, and the market fell on it face. all the better really. original cars were still being bought and restored by the high end crowd, the little guy would have a car he would like to buy, but couldn't because he couldn't find a buyer for any of his projects! the marke value of these cars then slowly rose till it hit the ceiling again before the last crash when the economy fell on it face.

maybe alittle of this history ( or my perception of it) explains some of the thought process that goes into what some people regard as # matching, original, survivor, and whatever. I personally its about what YOU like and want.

point i'm trying to make. if you look at the big time Nats show crowd, it was a contest (ego maybe??) to find a very desirable model ( say 71 hemi cuda), and resort it to as it left the factory condition. more likely that car would have been missing some parts when it was found. say it had headers. so the owner would look or correct exh man with the correct cast # and date. ( or what people thought might be the correct cast date! HA). say he wins the top award, the Gold certificate! its a restored a matching correct car. perhaps it s full of correct parts but NOT those than came on it out of the factory. its not what you would call a true survivor by most of that crowd, it has been restored, ....

long story while the hail storm BLOWS thru!!!!!

Interesting points and observations from all.

O K its lightning again! LOL...... short this time. what is important in our hobby is people enjoy their car, and build it to THEIR standards! not everyone will agree with your tastes, priorities, agenda, etc..... that's life.....

if I decide to sell a car, people will many times look at it and find things they would have done differently..my response is (politely) tell them if they want to buy my car, feel free to make it as YOU like! LOL

The other outcome of that 90s madness is a bunch of people will buy what they think will be the next Hemicuda and hole it away for 30 years. So even if there is something memorable like say a 87 GNX or a 2015 Hellcat, when they are classics having an unrestored barn find of the guy who died in Vietnam will be no big deal (meaning not worth 100,000 times what it cost new) because there will be 50 of them out there to choose from.

Interesting thread.

being that i'm NOT a money guy, I prefer the market to be soft. my toys as projects are affordable or even cheap. the expensive part is the cost of any repop, or even parts store parts! ( I do all my own work) so I don't count my labor. I enjoy working on them. I just strive to build solid drives t hat suit me.

seems like ordering repop parts lately has been a pain. wrong parts sent that are not correct ( don't fit) and customer service from them that suck!!! i'm sure I have just had run of bad luck, but never experienced this decades before!

Alright, I'll bite. And these are just what they mean to me, I know they already don't agree with everything that people have already said

Original- means it's just as it left the factory. Maybe with the exception of a few consumable items, but just a few. Everything else is not only numbers matching, but came on this car the day it left the assembly line. Time capsule. Also, this many years later- unobtanium.

Numbers matching- means the engine, transmission, fender tag, VIN, partial VIN stamps are all present and matching. Options are is indicated on the fender tag or build sheet. I personally wouldn't call a car "not numbers" because it has headers, or an aftermarket carb, intake, etc as long as all of the big pieces lined up.

Survivor- I hate this one almost as much as I hate "barn find". Means something different to everyone. To me, it means it's unrestored and wears most of its original stuff, but not necessarily all of it. Especially when it comes to maintenance items. An unrestored driver, for example. Consumables replaced (belts, hoses, brakes, etc) or even exchanged for other stuff, but if big things have been replaced it should't have been recently. Like, I wouldn't sweat a set of keystones or slot mags added in the 70's, or a set of Doug Thorley's of the same vintage, etc, but it shouldn't have a bunch of brand new stuff on it. Paint should be like 85% original. Seen that number tossed around a lot. Same deal, if the fender, or part of the quarter, or a door, was dented and re-sprayed in the 70's or early 80's it would still be a survivor to me. If it had a fender and door Maaco'd last week, nope. Problem with "survivors" is that you can't do much to them. Fix too many things and it's not a survivor anymore. So, really, unless you don't drive it, it won't stay that way. A good car to look for to start a restoration, but one that will just make you feel guilty if you start to change too many things.

Factory correct- This one is for all of those crazy high dollar restorations. Not original, but all of the date codes, options, finishes, etc, are right for that year/make/model, and everything matches up with the documentation and numbers. Actually can get away with not numbers matching in all cases if the date codes are correct- like a warranty block instead of the original engine. Not "original" or "numbers" in all situations, but period correct. It looks the same as if everything was original.

For me, most of this stuff is just annoying. Yes, a couple of my cars are in fact numbers matching (at least as I define it), and a couple of them were probably survivors, wearing their original paint and everything (EL5 GT, Duster) when I bought them. But I like drivers- cars that actually work and are reliable, so that's not really compatible with any of these definitions. Especially when you make them daily drivers, and make the needed upgrades to suspension, brakes, etc to keep up with and out of the way of the modern cars out there. So, although I'm all maxed out on cars, any future vehicles of mine will be NON-numbers. I do like original paint though, just because you know its not a bondo bucket.

There's very little to debate with numbers matching; depending on the year of the car, the engine, transmission and rear end along with a few parts on the body (trunk lip, rad support, vin) all have a portion of the vin which indicate it's original to that car. Going beyond that to say everything is numbers matching on the car is not correct since there is no way to prove it. How can one prove the exhaust manifolds are original to the car if there's no vin stamping on them? If they have the correct date code (cast/built before the car production date) then that's the best one can do but it's not numbers matching. Numbers matching can only relate to the parts that had the partial vin stamped on them.

It's just like when someone sells a car and claims that it was never driven in the rain or never raced! There is no way for the seller to prove that so they shouldn't be making that claim. And if he thinks he can ask a premium for the car since it wasn't driven in the rain, well he's not going to get that premium from me.

If you do find date code correct manifolds for your car then you can say your car is numbers matching (engine and transmission) with other parts being date code correct. But how honest can you be with that statement when there are clearly items that are not date code correct on the car like the tires and shocks? Or the belts/hoses? Those are not date code correct. How about the radiator, alternator, water pump, light bulbs, steering wheel and seats? Why would it be important to point out the manifolds are date correct if the radiator or alternator or water pump, etc isn't? Is a buyer really going to care if the seats or alternator are original to the car? Nope, since it can't be proven the seats are (since there is no vin stamping on them) it's a trivial point saying everything is 'original' to the car. There is no way to prove it. Heck, some people even stoop to the level of putting fake vin stampings on the transmission and engine to make the car appear to be numbers matching. It's almost impossible these days to prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that a car is numbers matching unless it's had a documented history. And regardless if it's a numbers matching/date code correct car, a restomod or an unrestored car, each could be wiped out in an instant due to some dumb*ss driver plowing into you.

Is "rode hard and put away wet" an official category? If so, I'm sure my Dart would take home the blue ribbon. But I love it anyway.

Why does this keep coming up lately? Seen it in several threads.

The rear axles are NOT stamped with a VIN on these cars. 8 3/4's aren't stamped with anything. There were some factory paint markings depending on the year, but nothing was stamped or cast into the housing. They did move the axle breathers depending on the year of some of them, but that's as close as you're going to get other than going off the dimensions (assuming they're stock).

Here's a list and examples of the markings the 8 3/4's got.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Board=A12&Number=5908673&Searchpage=1&Main=5907050&Words=&topic=&Search=true

Dana 60's are stamped with a date code and a "bill of materials" or BoM number, that tells you how they were set up from the factory (gearing, limited slip, etc). But that had no relation to the vehicles VIN, and the VIN wasn't stamped on the Dana's either.

Dana 60 decoding
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=46240.0

I sold a low mile rare color 2000 Dakota R/T and saw it later in a for sale ad still very nice but with the claim never driven in the snow. I have pictures of that truck with 15" studded snows and chains on it with a nice little buck bleading all over the tailgate. So yeah as long as you don't consider hunting on forest service roads in a foot of fresh snow driving in the snow. That was on a less then 10 year old car, who knows on a 50 year old car.

95 % of "muscle cars" were driven till the engine blew, then they simply went to the boneyard and dropped in another one. very few ( but some) were well taken car of by each owner. I've had a few friends that Never got on it, ever! but then there is the next owner! most of these cars were bought new, driven a few years, then they were used cars, and bout that time were classified "gas guzzlers" as the price of gas had jumped form .29 to . 65 a gal, mid 70's. and driving a high performance car wasn't considered as cool as before by most. so finding a car that still possesses original engine, trans, paint etc. was somewhat rare in the 90's, not to mention NOW? it intrigues some people ( most of us if admitted)...

not all of us would pay more more for that reason, other than buying a car in GOOD condition makes people pay more than buying one in POOR condition!