Bumping out of 2nd

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AJ/FormS said:
What vibration? You didnt mention any vibration before now. I checked.
Ooooh booy. Why did you withhold this information? If you were here I'd punch you in the arm.Hard! lol.
And nooow you mention a whine. After I spilled all my secrets.
I have got to start asking more questions.


So; these are not normal. If the tranny is whining, its like a cat when you're standing on its tail. He's telling you something is wrong.
Jumping out is one thing.We already talked about that.
Whining is another
And vibration is a third.
Each of these by itself can have their own solutions. When all three are in concert, it could spell a fourth solution.
-Lets talk about the whining.There are several possible sources of that in the tranny. The first one is bearings. The second is tooth contact. The third is misalignment.
-Lets talk about vibration.There are no obvious sources of vibration inside the tranny.Other sources are the clutch assembly, the driveshaft assembly, and other.Heres the thing; vibration can be a major enabler of jumping out of gear during coasting or deceleration.You need to fix this first. I'm not saying your tranny is ok,cause its not. I'm saying the vibration could be driving the condition.
-Now lets talk about whining again. Lets say your pilot bushing fell out. (Dont laugh,it happens). This would immediately produce a vibration as the disc drops off center. It would also drag the input shaft off center. This would tip the inner race of the front bearing, driving the balls into the outer races, and probably squeezing the oil film down to nearly nothing.And you can imagine the rest.Thers something else that would happen. The off-center running input, would apply pressure to the needle bearings at the front of the output shaft,eventually causing the nose to fail. And a third thing that would happen is, finally, the whining; as the edges of the drive teeth on the off-center running input gear, dig into the teeth of the cluster drive-gear.
So you can see that just that little $3(1999pricing)part COULD cause all three symptoms.Again, Im not saying you need a new bushing. I'm just presenting you with a possible solution.
So, bottom line is this; find and fix the vibration. This may forstall the tranny rebuild.At least for a while.
Click to expand...

There is no vibration i ment movement from the engine or just movement from the engine and trans
As for whine, its not loud but in 4th gear there is a faint whine its quiet enough that when the radio is on and volume is low you cant hear it, sometimes i dont even notice it
Sorry should of been clearer
 
Double M
I dont think you need to apologize at all. It was just semantics.
If you reread your post, you will notice the word syncro appear several times, and each time it is referring to a different thing. Now, us old-timers knew what you were talking about(most of us are 60+) . But to the OP you were clear as mud.
Perhaps MY words were harsh.
And for that, I apologize.

As for Rusty's response , I ,as well as others, assumed he was referring to the entire steel assembly between the two gears, possibly because thats the the way they were sold, back in the day. The brass rings were called stop-rings and were always offered separately.When I was a kid I went through several synchronizers(entire assys), before I figured out, that the parts guys loved to see me coming.I bought a hand-held grinder, and they never saw me again.That was about 1971.

Thanks for coming back.
 
Well, Oooooh booy again.
Assuming the release bearing is properly parked,a whine in 4th can be only from one source, maybe two, maybe three.But really just one: The ball-bearings.And most likely the front one.The third possibility is oil.If you're running ATF or a high percentage of ATF, any whine in that box will come out. Gear-oil quiets her pretty good. So if you have a whine with 100%gear-oil,I can almost guarantee its from the front bearing.Almost.With good oil, it can run like that for thousands of miles.
Now lets talk about the dancing stick.If the engine mounts are in good shape and secure, there will be very little movement with torque application/relaxation.If the rear mount is bad, it usually lets you know by making all kinds of racket during the shift. The tail likes to come up and spank the tunnel. However before it gets that bad, it just squiggles around a lot, moving the shifter around some. Because our Mopes have the shifter mounted SECURELY to the tailhouse, every thing moves together, so it does not affect shifting.I'm pretty sure my FormulaS has original biscuits. It also has a Schumacher torque limiter(set loose).I think it has a poly rear mount.With this set-up I have never noticed any monkey motion.
So you might wanr to slid under there with tools and prove that the three mounts are ok.
 
I appreciate the info, im not really worried that much about it (maybe i should be) but the car drives good. Just couple little things, i thought the a-833 was infamous of a slight 4 speed whine, im running 75w90 lucas in the trans maybe 85w140 is in the future for me but well see, also i dont feel any vibration while shifting its not silky smooth but pretty smooth.
 
71DodgeDemon340 said:
But honestly i keep my hand on the shifter at all times, just a habit lol.
Click to expand...
Not trying to pick on you at all, but that is a good way to wear the shfiter, linkage, the shift forks, and where they ride on the sliders......and the synchro area. That's a bad habit that causes many things to wear out quickly..... like riding the clutch pedal will wear out the throw out bearing quickly.
 
nm9
I understand your thinking, and almost posted similarly. but the more I thought about it I came to a different conclusion.
In order for wear to occur as you are thinking, on the fork/slider interface, there would have to be sufficient weight hanging off the stick to pull the internal shift levers, partly into neutral.
On the late style cover, this would take a lot of force.Just try to pull the stick into neutral wilst cruising down the road And since the clutch teeth are being held engaged by the engine torque, nothing would happen until the torque passed from drive to coast.Then its possible that the hand weight could kick it into neutral. With the roostercomb cover, I think its a non-issue
On the other hand,with the earlier cover, the detent is much less powerful.However, a fellow would have to be somewhat imperceptive, to not realize whats going on, as the stick would have to have a somewhat springy feel to it.
I also think this would be a 1/3 gear only issue, cause in those positions, arm weight is pulling the stick into neutral. In 2/4 arm weight would be pulling the slider deeper into gear.
And finally, its not very comfortable resting your hand on the stick in 1st and 3rd, And since a guy is never in 1st very long...... that leaves 3rd. I can see 3rd being affected. But once again, Im back to the springy stick.
All in all, I reckoned,it was bad practice, but forgivable.

On a different note, I moved my shifter waaay back, between the buckets, and uuup.The upper mounting bolt is actually above the hump. My upper arm hangs pretty much vertical, and my lower arm just above horizontal,with my hand on the ball. I fabbed up some new large diameter tube links.Cause I tool around with my hand on the ball too!

So what are your thoughts?
 
Also i keep my hand as such a way its always not forcing but resting the weight of my hand in the direction of the shift, for example in 1st until im ready to shift my hand is applying light pressure forward, then go back to 2nd and again my hand is holding some light preesure back same with 3rd and 4th, not really applying pressure more or less just holding it there until im ready to shift, my hand is always on tge shifter while driving unless im on the hwy, i cant do the " drive with hands 10 and 2 and shift to 2nd, back to 10 and 2, then shift to 3rd, back to 10 and 2 same for 4th" lol i just cant enjoy that
 
Also one thing i wanted to add is one day a while maybe a year or so ago i launched from about 4k just hot rodding around town and immediately after i noticed a vibration, so i babied her home and the engine actually picked up the engine mount out of that hole where the pin lines up and shifted back about a half inch where it sat normally, so we straightened it out got her sitting back neutral in the mounts, then i installed a torque strap lol think this could of hurt anything? Or contributed to any of my tiny issues?
 
As aj mentioned for that to occur i would be having to apply pressure towards neutral, i always keep my hand resting the weight of my hand in the direction of the shift
 
71DodgeDemon340 said:
As aj mentioned for that to occur i would be having to apply pressure towards neutral, i always keep my hand resting the weight of my hand in the direction of the shift
Click to expand...

Unfortunately this is not always the case, and you can prove it to yourself by listening close as you pull the shifter farther INTO the gear.
Try it and in most cases with the engine idling in gear with the clutch disengaged pulling farther into the gear will slow the motor a little.
That means the shift fork is dragging the RPMs down and the result of that should be obvious. (worn shift forks)

It's not every gear or every trans either, and you may need to pull it more than just resting your arm on it but the point is that the forks oft times still drag on the slider ring even after it is in the gear.
Try it and prove to yourself which gears do it and which don't on your own transmission.
 
TB
The rooster comb covers make that very, very difficult. The ramps are almost extreme. The 71 Demon may,after all these years, have either cover on it.
But yeah, on some equipment it was obvious.

EDIT,71 DodgeDemon340s' may,after all these years,have either cover on it.
 
Post 42 edited

71
When the Chrysler A833 came out it had a interlock/detent system in the side cover.This system had the job of keeping the shift-forks in the correct positions, as to in gear or in neutral.It also included a system that made it impossible to engage more than 1 gear at a time.The trouble is, the detent system is rather soft, and the matching brass forks would break their pivot stubs off.
So in 71,IIRC, Ma introduced a second system. It had steel forks.This solved the breakage problem. At the same time they changed the detent/interlock system, to include an improved, much stiffer system, with special pivot-pin extensions.

The "early" system was a hair easier to shift, felt sweeter,allowed accidental bump-outs, and, as you've discovered,allowed easy bump-outs as the clutching teeth got worn.
The "late" system requires a bit more effort to initiate stick travel, and makes accidental bump-outs much more difficult, and, at least delays bump-outs due to aging parts.
 
AJ/FormS said:
The rooster comb covers make that very, very difficult. The ramps are almost extreme. The 71 Demon may,after all these years, have either cover on it.
But yeah, on some equipment it was obvious.

EDIT,71 DodgeDemon340s' may,after all these years,have either cover on it.
Click to expand...

Have no idea what you are talking about lol
 
OK, just don't inhale while resting your hand on the shifter, and you'll be fine....LOL.

Soooo, back to the main topic: when is the trannie coming apart for the worn synchro assy?
 
pntastar69 said:
Heard that as well from numerous mopar 4 speed users.
Click to expand...

Seen it in person on the bench multiple times, and you can always tell the ones that do it because about 1/16 of the shift fork contact pads are gone. :)
(Usually 2nd and 4th)
 
TrailBeast said:
Unfortunately this is not always the case, and you can prove it to yourself by listening close as you pull the shifter farther INTO the gear.
Try it and in most cases with the engine idling in gear with the clutch disengaged pulling farther into the gear will slow the motor a little.
That means the shift fork is dragging the RPMs down and the result of that should be obvious. (worn shift forks)

It's not every gear or every trans either, and you may need to pull it more than just resting your arm on it but the point is that the forks oft times still drag on the slider ring even after it is in the gear.
Try it and prove to yourself which gears do it and which don't on your own transmission.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for tge suggestion, ill try it in the next day or so
 
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