Carter 2BBL carb- I am stuck

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Pawned

N.R.A. Lifetime Member - And damn proud of it
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I have the above Carb on my Duster. No matter how much I turn the fuel/air mixture screws the engine does not change.

I will be the first one to tell you that I know nothing when it comes to carbs. I can pull them apart and rebuild them, but can not tune one. It is not just this Duster but any carb I try to tune
A guy I know that runs a garage (not a wrench turner) tells me to turn them clockwise till they stop and then go CCW 2 1/2 to 3 full turns. Then leave it alone.

As a fall back, I will do that if I forget where I am in the turns.

I have ordered another rebuild kit that should be here Monday. I want this carb running properly so I can determine whether or not I will upgrade to a 4bbl.

One other symptom, I left out is every night when I park the car, the carb drains itself. I put a check valve in the fuel line and no help. So somehow it is draining into the intake manifold. I have a couple hoops to jump thru but it starts beautifully

Feedback welcome from all but one of you
 
Turn them all the way in and back out about 1.5 turns.
How does it run other wise?
 
put a guage on it and adjust to the highest reading

It reads the same no matter where I turn the screws.

Turn them all the way in and back out about 1.5 turns.
How does it run other wise?

As I stated, I was at 2 1/2 to 3 turns. I will go out and try 1 1/2 turns when I am done here
 
Am I the but one? Heh-Heh........
Probly not so here goes;

I assume that you have proved that the bowl is dry in the morning, and are not just guessing. If you are guessing, then I'll be guessing;
Your carb is junk. It has a hole in the bottom, and its not easily repairable.When you take it apart look for the hole.Do not put it back together and hope for the best. Look in the lowest part of the bowl, under the mainjets.
If the engine runs the same,no matter where the mixture screw are set, then the engine is getting its idle fuel supply from somewhere else; perhaps that little hole I spoke of. And/or the low-speed circuit is plugged.
But if you're guessing, I'm a gonna reach through the screen and smack you!


And just why do you want to fix it, if you're just gonna put a 4bbl on it? You lost me.,
 
Am I the but one? Heh-Heh........
Probly not so here goes;

I assume that you have proved that the bowl is dry in the morning, and are not just guessing. If you are guessing, then I'll be guessing;
Your carb is junk. It has a hole in the bottom, and its not easily repairable.When you take it apart look for the hole.Do not put it back together and hope for the best. Look in the lowest part of the bowl, under the mainjets.
If the engine runs the same,no matter where the mixture screw are set, then the engine is getting its idle fuel supply from somewhere else; perhaps that little hole I spoke of. And/or the low-speed circuit is plugged.
But if you're guessing, I'm a gonna reach through the screen and smack you!


And just why do you want to fix it, if you're just gonna put a 4bbl on it? You lost me.,

No, I am not guessing. I have taken the top off the carb in the morning and it is bone dry. I have a switch I throw that turns on the fuel pump to refill it before I try to start it. Takes about 2 minutes before it starts. It starts on the first half crank. very fast.

As I put a oil pressure safety switch on the electric fuel pump. So it must develop oil pressure to supply power to the fuel pump. But when it is dry, it won't start and no oil pressure. So I put in a switch so I can prime the carb to start it

I want to know for sure so I know it is not my ego that wants the new carb, the car needs a new carb
 
if idle mix screws dont do any thing the most likely thing is a vacuum leek. if you had the carb off recheck the base gasket. or the gaskets in the carb. the two screws that go from top casting to the bottom casting do not overtighten them else it will warp the castings.
 
Wait, did you say it takes 2 minutes for the pump to fill the bowl? Thats whack!It shouldnt take but a few seconds.

Well there is no way that the bowl can evaporate overnight. So
Your carb is junk. It has a hole in the bottom, and its not easily repairable.When you take it apart look for the hole.Do not put it back together and hope for the best. Look in the lowest part of the bowl, under the mainjets.

Pull your dipstick .The gas is going somewhere. If its not on the manifold or on the floor/ground/driveway, then its got to be in the oilpan; not good!
 
Wait, did you say it takes 2 minutes for the pump to fill the bowl? Thats whack!It shouldnt take but a few seconds.

Well there is no way that the bowl can evaporate overnight. So
Your carb is junk. It has a hole in the bottom, and its not easily repairable.When you take it apart look for the hole.Do not put it back together and hope for the best. Look in the lowest part of the bowl, under the mainjets.

Pull your dipstick .The gas is going somewhere. If its not on the manifold or on the floor/ground/driveway, then its got to be in the oilpan; not good!

I give it 2 minutes, The accelerator pump needs to rehydrate before it will pump anything.

I will take it off tomorrow and see if I can find the leak. I have heard of the engine boiling the fuel out of it. But I doubt that totally, as I put a thick spacer between the carb and the manifold.

I imagine that I will upgrade to the 4 bbl. carb and manifold
I never really dealt with carbs before. My background is Electrical Engineering and some mechanical.
I have torn farther into this car than I have any car before. Before the fix had to be done in a few hours or you didn't drive until you finished. Plus, I have always bought new cars and they do not need anything much. The Dusters were the first new car I bought and the first used car I bought.

Don't get me wrong, the car is 98% finished mechanically. I then need to dig into the body, fix a couple quarter size rust spots. I think they are rust. It was painted over but you can tell it was not done right. And then paint

Turn them all the way in and back out about 1.5 turns.
How does it run other wise?

The car starts and runs beautifully. I am quite proud of myself, although it took me 2 years to get here. I think I bought it 2 years ago this week
 
Ok, I see about the 2 minutes.
The accelerator pump does not rehydrate itself. It has checkvalves on both sides of the diaphragm; an inlet check and a discharge check. If yours is in fact self-priming, then the inlet checkvalve is not working.Normally this would cause a stumble, anytime the throttle is opened, from any position, as the pump would just push the fuel back into the bowl. I think its more likely that the fuel remained in the pump reservoir,overnight.

I got to thinking,and this came to me; If the suction-breaker at the top of the venturi-cluster were plugged, I think it might be possible for the fuel to siphon out through the low speed circuit,overnight . This would also deaden the response to the mixture-screw adjustments. It might also cause the engine to run rich,all the time.IIRC that cluster is just screwed on with 1 or 2 screws, and I seem to remember the suction breaker is the hollow screw itself.
 
I never will understand why some people say there is a set number of turns for air screws. That's just not so.

Get your vacuum gauge out. With the car warmed up, block the drive wheels and set the parking brake. Connect the vacuum gauge to a manifold vacuum source.

Start the engine and drop it in drive. Take note of the vacuum reading. Starting with one side, screw the air screw clockwise until the vacuum reading drops and the engine begins to stumble. Then, back the screw out until you achieve the highest vacuum reading and then 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. Repeat for the other side.

If your vacuum doesn't drop or the engine doesn't stumble when the screws are tightened, the carburetor needs attention, or you have a vacuum leak.

Of course, the carburetor is the last thing to adjust. Make sure the timing is set properly first or you will be forever chasing your tail. It's all in the factory service manual. It's no magical secret.
 
I never will understand why some people say there is a set number of turns for air screws. That's just not so.

Get your vacuum gauge out. With the car warmed up, block the drive wheels and set the parking brake. Connect the vacuum gauge to a manifold vacuum source.

Start the engine and drop it in drive. Take note of the vacuum reading. Starting with one side, screw the air screw clockwise until the vacuum reading drops and the engine begins to stumble. Then, back the screw out until you achieve the highest vacuum reading and then 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. Repeat for the other side.

If your vacuum doesn't drop or the engine doesn't stumble when the screws are tightened, the carburetor needs attention, or you have a vacuum leak.

Of course, the carburetor is the last thing to adjust. Make sure the timing is set properly first or you will be forever chasing your tail. It's all in the factory service manual. It's no magical secret.

Somebody remembers early auto shop basics,without a computer flash. Imagine that.........
 
You need to prove the fuel is not evaporating.
With engine stone cold, fill the bowl. Walk away. Fuel still there tomorrow morn ?
If so the fuel is evaporating after hot stop.
 
lik RRR said, ALL just basic tuning stuff, but realize this, us old guys that run carbs, we usually have a stach of " rebuildable" crabs. these things are what 50-60 yrars old????? things were out, deteriate, people try to " hotrod" them, parts gets switched around, that's why you should have a collection of the things!!!!! a good carb with a sound engine is NO problem!!!!
learning about the carb, engine timing, if you learn this stuff and have some friends that too came along in the F I computer age, you can dazzle them with their Mopars that run the carb!!!!
 
Is this a remanufactured BBD? Sometimes they are so poorly built that no matter how many rebuilds you do, they will never get better. I had a parts store Holley that was like that and ended up having to buy a NOS carb on ebay that has done me well for the last decade.
 
Is the thick insulator base gasket still in place? Have you checked to see if the valve in your passenger side exhaust manifold may be stuck in a restrictive position causing your intake to run hot and boil fuel as you suggested? Another old school trick is to rev it up and hold the choke closed a few times and see if that unclogs any air bleeds that might be causing a siphon. If it is draining into your manifold your oil will start smelling like fuel very soon. Is the mechanical pump still connected in series?
 
Is the thick insulator base gasket still in place? Have you checked to see if the valve in your passenger side exhaust manifold may be stuck in a restrictive position causing your intake to run hot and boil fuel as you suggested? Another old school trick is to rev it up and hold the choke closed a few times and see if that unclogs any air bleeds that might be causing a siphon. If it is draining into your manifold your oil will start smelling like fuel very soon. Is the mechanical pump still connected in series?

Are you referring to the "Blow By" I think that is the name. A butterfly valve that heat the intake manifold. If so, it is not there. It was missing when I got the car. And being in Phoenix, it is not really needed. Rarely does the temp go below 40° F

I took the carb off and there was still a little gas left in the bowl. I pulled it off and set it on a paper towel and cardboard box. I do not see any marks on the towels or box.
I will recheck it later to see where it is leaking from
 
The fuel may just be evaporating out of the bowl. Carter's are notorious for this, and Edelbrock's aren't much better. The bowls are vented, and if they sit long enough the fuel can evaporate out. It still happens on my Challenger (carter 650 4 barrel) if I let it sit for more than a couple days. Overnight is pretty fast for it to be evaporating, but I don't live in AZ, and I know it can be pretty stupid hot there, even overnight. So, I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a bowl vent causing that issue. I would check to make sure it wasn't draining into the intake and washing down the cylinders as was already suggested, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was just evaporating.

As far as the idle mixture screws not doing anything, it IS a vacuum leak. It may be internal to the carb, but it's there. There are a lot of places a carb can have a vacuum leak internally. One of the more interesting spots is at the throttle shaft, they show up there on old carbs because the shafts are harder than the carb metal, and eventually wear out the carb. Which leads to a vacuum leak that's pretty hard to find, and not easy to fix on most carbs. There's also the rebuild kit gaskets. They don't always match the originals, and even a small difference can cause an internal leak that will be very difficult to find. When you rebuilt the carb did you compare the new gaskets to the old ones?

Personally, I'm not a fan of the Carter 2 barrels. I've tuned a lot of carbs, and I just don't like them. Carter 4 barrels are no problem, but the stock 2 barrels have never worked all that well for me.
 
Ok
Vacuum leak keeps coming up as a reason for the pilot screws not functioning normally.
This from post #1; " but it starts beautifully'
This from post #6; "It starts on the first half crank. very fast."
This from post #9; "The car starts and runs beautifully. I am quite proud of myself"
This from post #16;"'I saw it and checked it. No vacuum leaks. "

So, if it starts and runs beautifully, but the pilot screw setting makes no difference, the problem is NOT a vacuum leak.The problem IS a faulty standpipe in the pilot circuit. Very probably the engine is getting the correct amount of fuel through the leak. I believe they are related. The standpipe is likely dry and now providing the emulsion air to go with that leaking fuel.
From post #8
"Well there is no way that the bowl can evaporate overnight. So
Your carb is junk. It has a hole in the bottom, and its not easily repairable.When you take it apart look for the hole.Do not put it back together and hope for the best. Look in the lowest part of the bowl, under the mainjets."
EDIT or at the bottom of the low-speed well.
I guess I should qualify that opening sentence: Here in Manitoba, theres no way that bowl can evaporate overnight.In your location maybe it is possible.

When you test for the hole;1) do not use gasoline; its way too volatile.2) do not use water, the molecules are too big and love to stick together. 3) use kerosine, or diesel, or a penetrating oil.The P-oil will wick through just about any crack.
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I have a 45 year old HolleyDP on my 367. It runs beautifully. I also have a 40plus year old TQ, that runs beautifully. I have several Carter 2bbls about 30 to 35 years old, that run beautifully. I have tuned carbs that are 40 to 50 years old and worn as can be, and they run beautifully.
Now I'm no carb genius, but it seems to me some guys give up too soon.And I admit ,I havent worked on hundreds and hundreds of automotive carbs. But I have worked on a lot of old carbs,especially in the last 15 to 20 years or so.And that includes multi-carb, and dual throat, set-ups fitted to motorcycles.
I remember one carb I couldnt fix. It was off a Lawboy lawnmower. It was a plastic body. The T-shaft holes were so worn, it wouldnt idle down properly.Who cares, its a lawnmower.Ya pull the rope,ya mow the grass. All its got to do is start and bring the blade tip-speed up high enough to do the job.
Ok rant over.
 
Apparently, the carb was put on by the guy I bought it from. It is a rebuilt. I am going to follow this up till I find it or die or go to a 4bbl Edelbrock.
 
a lot of mechanics around here swear by a product called Seafoam. can has instructions, but I have had them tell me to pour some in and leave overnight. when the carb starts it will SMOKE a lot!

if you really want to run the 2 bbl, I would like the man said, keep working on your carb ( unless the throttle shaft hole is worn), or get find a member here with a good one he has taken off. peole do change over to 4 bbl and just toss the old 2 bbl on the shelf. a good o ne might be worth what $50
tops????????

and like they said, any remaned carb ALWAYS seems to be a crap shoot!!!
 
Ok
Vacuum leak keeps coming up as a reason for the pilot screws not functioning normally.
This from post #1; " but it starts beautifully'
This from post #6; "It starts on the first half crank. very fast."
This from post #9; "The car starts and runs beautifully. I am quite proud of myself"
This from post #16;"'I saw it and checked it. No vacuum leaks. "

So, if it starts and runs beautifully, but the pilot screw setting makes no difference, the problem is NOT a vacuum leak.The problem IS a faulty standpipe in the pilot circuit. Very probably the engine is getting the correct amount of fuel through the leak. I believe they are related. The standpipe is likely dry and now providing the emulsion air to go with that leaking fuel.
From post #8
"Well there is no way that the bowl can evaporate overnight. So
Your carb is junk. It has a hole in the bottom, and its not easily repairable.When you take it apart look for the hole.Do not put it back together and hope for the best. Look in the lowest part of the bowl, under the mainjets."EDIT or at the bottom of the low-speed well.

When you test for the hole;1) do not use gasoline; its way too volatile.2) do not use water, the molecules are too big and love to stick together. 3) use kerosine, or diesel, or a penetrating oil.The P-oil will wick through just about any crack.
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I have a 45 year old HolleyDP on my 367. It runs beautifully. I also have a 40plus year old TQ, that runs beautifully. I have several Carter 2bbls about 30 to 35 years old, that run beautifully. I have tuned carbs that are 40 to 50 years old and worn as can be, and they run beautifully.
Now I'm no carb genius, but it seems to me some guys give up too soon.And I admit ,I havent worked on hundreds and hundreds of automotive carbs. But I have worked on a lot of old carbs,especially in the last 15 to 20 years or so.And that includes multi-carb, and dual throat, set-ups fitted to motorcycles.
I remember one carb I couldnt fix. It was off a Lawboy lawnmower. It was a plastic body. The T-shaft holes were so worn, it wouldnt idle down properly.Who cares, its a lawnmower.Ya pull the rope,ya mow the grass. All its got to do is start and bring the blade tip-speed up high enough to do the job.
Ok rant over.

First, carbs can be tuned to work just fine with a vacuum leak. For example, one called a PCV valve. So, starting and running fine does not eliminate the possibility of a vacuum leak. It depends a lot on where it is, how big it is, etc. Neither does checking for one, since internal vacuum leaks are notoriously hard to find. That also doesn't mean that it isn't a leak in the standpipe of the pilot circuit, because that would explain it too.

Second, do a search on this forum for Carter's with dry fuel bowls. Or hard starting Carter's, or bowl vents, or vapor lock, or whatever. You will find that there are dozens of threads regarding both Carter's and Edelbrock's having the fuel in the bowl's evaporate through the bowl vents. Mostly 4 barrels, but some 2 barrels as well. I know because I've done those searches myself to figure out why I have that issue with the Carter 650 on my Challenger, and why I've had it with two completely different Carter's on the same engine. And an Edelbrock brand new out of the box on a completely different engine in a completely different car. Again, I'm not saying this is absolutely the issue in this case, but it is a possibility. Keep in mind that in Canada you don't typically see 116*F temperatures, or overnight temps that stay in the 90's. Expected high in Scottsdale today is 111*F. Might have something to do with it.

Finally. You seem to assume that you know more than me about carbs, and that may in fact be the case. But that doesn't mean my input doesn't have value. There's a limited amount of info that we've been provided, and usually on the internet it comes down to how well something is explained. There's a lot of variables, and only one person here has actually seen or heard the car run. When I say a car runs "well" it might not mean the same thing as when you say it, or the OP. I've had people tell me that an engine with a completely dead cylinder "runs fine". And no, they weren't trying to rip me off, they just honestly didn't know.

I also have tuned plenty of different carbs and have done so for over 20 years. No, I am not a carb "guru" and wouldn't claim to be. But I can sync a pair of single barrel SU HD6's with nothing but a piece of fuel hose and a screwdriver. I've tuned SU's, Mikuni's, Keihins, Webers, Carter's, Edelbrock's, and Holley's. Some on multi-carb cars, some on multicarb motorcycles. Everything from single, single barrel set ups to 4x1's, and of course 2 and 4 barrel carbs. I've done so using tools as simple as a piece of hose, a screwdriver and a plug wrench and as complicated as a wideband A/F gauge. And I also have a couple old Carter carbs that run beautifully. And a couple of edelbrocks. And a brand new Holley Ultra 750 DP. And I have absolutely made mistakes tuning all of them, and probably still have a lot to learn about each and every one of them. Typically, when I offer advice or make a suggestion of something to check, it's because I've personally experienced that issue. Or at least an issue that has similar symptoms as described by the person posting about them, which usually gives a pretty wide range of possible issues.
 
There's lots of good info here. I'd like to add a few notes:

To start out with, as another member mentioned already, there is some confusion about how to adjust mixture screws. There is no preset number of turns out or in. When you see that mentioned, that is in reference to a baseline to get the engine to start and run.

Usually that's about 2 turns out from lightly seated. However, you adjust the mixture screws as already noted- start with one side and go clockwise until the rpm slows, then back counter-clockwise until the rpm slows again. Somewhere in the middle of that range is the sweet spot where the engine idles the fastest. That would also mirror readings you would receive from using a vacuum gauge. Someone said just "gauge". They meant vacuum gauge.

Ok, so if your engine does not respond to adjusting those screws, it could be the all-encompassing vacuum leak which is allegedly responsible for 98% of all engine performance issues.

However, you ruled that out. So, we have to look at other reasons. When I get a carb that will not respond to mixture adjustments, the first thing I do is check the....wait for it...ignition timing. Why? Well, base timing that is adjusted too far retarded or advanced can artificially decrease or increase the idle speed, respectfully.

So, if you have timing that is too far retarded, then the idle screw of the carb has to be run in so far to make it idle that it's actually off the idle circuit and into the main circuit. Then, no amount off adjusting those screws makes a difference.

Conversely, if the timing is too far advanced, the engine speed will not decrease enough with the idle screw. It'll still run at 1,000 rpm with the idle screw taken out and in your hand. A lot of people miss this and blame the carb, so check the timing with a light, vacuum advance line removed and plugged.

If that checks out, then there may be an issue with the carb. Historically, those BBD's tend to NOT idle at all. The pickup tubes are very small and get plugged with debris and the idle circuit quits. Then, again, the idle screw has to be ran way in to get it to idle and it's once again into the main circuit and no response from the idle screws.

You can check and clean those. Pull off the top of the carb and look for the two screws in the center that hold the venturi cluster on. I think it's only 2, all of my carbs are still together. Take those out, pull the cluster out and inspect the bottom of those tubes and see whether they are clogged up.

As far as the drainback issue goes, all of mine have done it but your case seems severe. You may want to pull the carb, fill the float bowl with gas and sit it in the sun to recreate the same conditions as under the hood. If it evaporates or you see gas under it, you have a clue then.

The only other thing I can think of is that one of the check valves in the fuel pump is bad and letting the fuel flow back into the line.

Have you checked the rubber line back at the gas tank? Those can get cracks in them and suck air, which causes the fuel line to lose it's prime and if it gets bad enough the fuel pump finally is unable to draw enough fuel volume to reach the carb. I would inspect that carefully.
 
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