slotted and or drilled rotors

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Yeah, Tim's Valiant is kind of the high end of Mopar street drivers. It was a super fun car and then it turned into a real monster once we dropped the 427 stroker motor in there. He needed all the brakes that we could hang on there! That car would go 160 mph if you were brave enough to keep your foot in it. 160 mph in a Valiant is scary.

160mph in a Valiant has to take some seriously large brass ones. Even with the way that car is set up, you have to be working pretty hard against the aerodynamics of the car at that point.

There's also a big difference between holes and slots cast into the rotor or machined into the rotor. The worse of the two is almost always the machined rotors as you're discontinuing the grain structure of the material causing stress risers (slots and holes are already a stress riser by themselves). My bet is that those Mercedes and Porsche rotors have their slots and holes casted in the rotor. For a street car you won't really get much added benefit except for looks.

Yup. If the rotors are cast that way it's quite a bit different than if they've been drilled or machined. Even if they were cast that way and then cleaned up during the machining process it makes a difference. And of course, I've seen some "shade-tree" cross drilling done by folks at home that was so frightening it would give all drilled rotors a bad name.

Holes are evil, rotors crack at the holes. Anything will crack at a hole, but the thermal growth of a rotor puts huge internal stresses in it and the holes are major stress risers.

An engineer designed those rotors, sure, but two things happened after that. Marketing said that the market wants holes in the rotors and made enough of a case for it with accounting that the engineers were over-ruled. BT, DT.

It's all about the manufacturing. I've had the drilled/slotted 11.75" rotors on my Challenger for well over 50k miles now. I've worn through a set of semi-metallic pads in that time, and the rotors still look great. No cracking, no warping. Granted, that's on a car that's street driven, and while I have been known to get a little spirited when I take the car out to the twisty's up in the mountains, I haven't competed with it on the track. So the heat cycling I've subjected mine to isn't exactly the worst case scenario. But that's also just with regular old Summit rotors straight off the boat from China. So, not exactly the pinnacle of manufacturing or design. But the holes were cast in.

As far as your example of the engineer being over-ruled, it suggests that no engineer would ever endorse drilled or slotted rotors. Since they're frequently used on race cars that are never marketed to the public and whose sole purpose is performance, your logic is flawed. As I already said, it's all about the manufacturing. And while I know that the major auto-manufacturers are no saints, the process for getting a car through testing and out on the market would prohibit a production car getting a redesign like drilled rotors without at least the sign-off from a high ranking engineer. Maybe it wouldn't trigger a complete redesign, but you'd better believe an engineer signed off on it.

Simply saying "all holes are bad" is a pretty simplistic statement. Sure, thermal cycling can cause issues, and stress risers can be a problem (although that's more relevant to drilled holes than cast ones). But there's a lot more to it than that, and there are ways to deal with/minimize those stresses (like putting a countersink relief on the holes as revhondo suggested). Everything is a trade off when it comes to engineering design. And of course you're right about marketing/accounting and production. A lot of really great designs have been turned into disastrous products by bean counters. But that also doesn't mean that every drilled/slotted rotor on the market is a time bomb waiting to go off. The drilled/slotted rotors on my Challenger are going to run out of spec on their thickness tolerance without ever having cracked or warped, and they're far from the high end of rotor design.
 
It is accurate as of when I quit working in R&D Engineering at wilwood.

Holes are stress risers no matter where they are. Their compromising the cooling vanes just makes a bad situation worse.

Turning of rotors is a hoax. You need only scuff them enough to create a surface for the new pads to bed on.
 
It is accurate as of when I quit working in R&D Engineering at wilwood.

Holes are stress risers no matter where they are. Their compromising the cooling vanes just makes a bad situation worse.

Turning of rotors is a hoax. You need only scuff them enough to create a surface for the new pads to bed on.

So, you're the guy I get to blame.....:D
 
It is accurate as of when I quit working in R&D Engineering at wilwood.

Holes are stress risers no matter where they are. Their compromising the cooling vanes just makes a bad situation worse.

Turning of rotors is a hoax. You need only scuff them enough to create a surface for the new pads to bed on.

So, the fact that Wilwood sells thousands of drilled rotors that don't crack or fail means what? Pure luck? Or, maybe there are actually engineering solutions to dealing with stress risers.

How about the fact that airplanes are held together with rivets? Every single one of those rivets goes through a hole. Stress risers? Sure. But if every drilled hole inherently caused a crack in the base material we couldn't hold anything together with bolts or rivets.
 
Not any more you don't. I don't work for them.

Yes, saying holes are evil is simplistic, but it also very true. That doesn't mean that they don't have their uses. Would be pretty hard to bolt things together without them.

We engineers are frequently told to add a useless or nearly useless feature by marketing or management. All we can do is make sure that those features don't pose a safety hazard because that is the only reason we are allowed to use to deny their inclusion.

What is used or isn't used on race cars isn't a good indicator of anything. Some racers are very savvy about some things and blind about others. It used to be called the "green valve cover syndrome." If last race's winner had green valve covers and no other obvious difference then clearly green valve covers are the winning ingredient and we need green valve covers if we hope to win the next race.
 
All Eddie wanted was to find out WHERE to buy drilled and or slotted rotors. That's all.
 
When racing hard, the expensive rotors last a bit longer, but cost a lot more, and don't stop any faster. I didn't notice a difference with these drilled and slotted rotors compared to the plain ones. Cooling ducts didn't do much, either. Pads made a huge difference. The Hawk Blue ones are outstanding. They wore out at 32 hours, and we only had Schmuck Auto Parts pads as a backup. The driver I was replacing told me "Don't go into the first turn any faster than the speed you want to die at."

These are on an '86 Mustang, but I don't think that matters here. They started cracking from the holes first, but as you can see, they also cracked right in the middle of the swept area. This rotor has 36 hours on it, and the other side was worse. The rust is just from sitting over Winter.



This started with slots.



Stepping up from 10-7/8" to 13" rotors was what we needed. They slow the car down from 156MPH hour after hour, with no brake fade at all, and they don't need slots or holes to do it.



They will still crack, though, but every car out there has cracked rotors after a race.

 
And there is the difference between street driving and racing , racing will heat those rotors , most street driving will never get close to that . Proves the point with drilled rotors , thing is most street drivers never get the rotors anywhere near as hot so they don't see the cracking
 
When racing hard, the expensive rotors last a bit longer, but cost a lot more, and don't stop any faster. I didn't notice a difference with these drilled and slotted rotors compared to the plain ones. Cooling ducts didn't do much, either. Pads made a huge difference. The Hawk Blue ones are outstanding. They wore out at 32 hours, and we only had Schmuck Auto Parts pads as a backup. The driver I was replacing told me "Don't go into the first turn any faster than the speed you want to die at."

These are on an '86 Mustang, but I don't think that matters here. They started cracking from the holes first, but as you can see, they also cracked right in the middle of the swept area. This rotor has 36 hours on it, and the other side was worse. The rust is just from sitting over Winter.



This started with slots.



Stepping up from 10-7/8" to 13" rotors was what we needed. They slow the car down from 156MPH hour after hour, with no brake fade at all, and they don't need slots or holes to do it.



They will still crack, though, but every car out there has cracked rotors after a race.


Just out of curiosity, did the 11" rotors not stop the vehicle from 150 mph? I'm guessing there is a caliper and pad upgrade with the bigger rotor install, also.

That's a really nasty crack on the 13" rotor right on the vane. Have you tried the cryogenic rotors?
 
I don't know squat, but my wife drives the hell out of a '03 hemi ram. Thing had 4 sets of rotors and or calpers/pads on it under warranty in its first 50k miles. Warranty ran out, i put cheap drilled and slotted rotors (chinese ****,i think) and new pads on it at 60k. No warpage, no noise, great stopping power. Just my experience with a specific vehicle, but I'm convinced..
 
I don't know squat, but my wife drives the hell out of a '03 hemi ram. Thing had 4 sets of rotors and or calpers/pads on it under warranty in its first 50k miles. Warranty ran out, i put cheap drilled and slotted rotors (chinese ****,i think) and new pads on it at 60k. No warpage, no noise, great stopping power. Just my experience with a specific vehicle, but I'm convinced..

Might be the quality of the genuine stuff had a customer back home in NZ had a dodge caravan use to trash a set of front rotors every summer with huge cracks every time they to it to their beach house 50+ miles in one section of steep winding roads. Wasn't till we put as you stated cheap Chinese crap ( was actually TRW brand) so quite so bad but never happened again.
 
So, the fact that Wilwood sells thousands of drilled rotors that don't crack or fail means what? Pure luck? Or, maybe there are actually engineering solutions to dealing with stress risers.

How about the fact that airplanes are held together with rivets? Every single one of those rivets goes through a hole. Stress risers? Sure. But if every drilled hole inherently caused a crack in the base material we couldn't hold anything together with bolts or rivets.

I work as an engineer in jet engine repair. A lot of times a small crack can be stopped by drilling a hole at its end. How does the "stress riser" crowd explain that?
 
MISF (called that to protect him) drilled his street car rotors in about 1988. They cracked from the holes, rapidly. He drives all of his vehicles pretty hard. Told me that he felt no gain and I know that it took a long time to do. He hasn't done it since. I'm sure that he did everything wrong because that's how he usually does things, but it serves as a worst case example in my book.

I work as an engineer in jet engine repair. A lot of times a small crack can be stopped by drilling a hole at its end. How does the "stress riser" crowd explain that?
Presents a discontinuity to the crack. That means that it does stop the crack, but that doesn't mean that new cracks can't propagate from the hole. Many times in castings the crack is following a slight flaw or was started by a slight flaw. Those flaws are also stress risers or the crack would not have developed unless the part had too low of an SF.

This is all well documented stuff, find a Carroll Smith book ("Engineer to Win" being the best one) if you're not into dry engineering reading.
 
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