My oil burning pig. Pics too!

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Ironmike

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Trying again, hoping some very experienced builders can help me out.

All summer I thought my intake was sucking oil from the valley, and it probably never was.
You can see the puddle of oil in the picture. All cyls are doing this.

So, intake is sealed like a drum, new Viton, positive type seals....guides WERE good before the CNC porting. Don't know how they could go bad.

I read up on "reversion" and this ain't it.....I don't think. 195 PSI all cyls and 3 percent leakdown.

So my question to you guys that know waaaay more than me is this:

What could possibly be causing oil puddling in a closed intake valve, other than the intake sucking oil from the valley?


I threw in a few pics cause it's been a frustrating season for me. I think my car is pretty decent looking, and runs pretty good also. Probably would run a helluva lot better if I could fix this. Put under 300 miles on this year. Usually 1800 or so, with a few trips to the track.

So before I throw these heads in the river, I need to make SURE it's the heads.

Oh. Yeah. I know some of you guys get exasperated with someone always asking for help, but this is really beyond me, at this point. That's why I'm here..
 

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It looks like you have a breather on each side valve cover.

Do you have a PCV valve hooked up?
 
Lack of a PCV valve. What is the actual guide clearance? Those are iron heads right? Do they have plain iron guides? Iron guides aren't a bad thing, I use them anytime I'm not using stainless valves. Iron guides and stainless valve stems are a bad thing.
 
I "THOUGHT" we went over how important the PCV valve was in your previous post. Maybe I am thinking of something else. But you need a PCV valve.
 
I "THOUGHT" we went over how important the PCV valve was in your previous post. Maybe I am thinking of something else. But you need a PCV valve.

It was mentioned in two previous threads, that and sealing the intake bolts.
 
Also, whichever valve cover breather you leave on needs to be plumbed to the air cleaner to complete the PCV system. Hardly anyone does that, but it is part of the PCV system and it does not operate correctly without it. I am pretty sure I posted this before, but here it is again.
 

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Not running a PCV is simply not a good idea on an engine you drive vs race. Get a PCV.
But - it could also be an issue of a lot of oil going to the top end and the positive seals not being good enough to seal it. What is the stem to guide clearance? If you don't know - you DON'T KNOW. You need to know when you're chasing a problem. It's either running down the guides (did the CNC porters bill you for new seals?) or it' coming from the intake. There's no other source for non-pressurized oil in the heads.
 
If it is indeed at all 8 valves, it is not likley to be a crack, breakthrough, or porosity. With the porting, the valves can be in and out a lot; seals can get damaged that way. Are these Edelbrocks or?
 
The heads are RHS/Indy X heads. 2010 model.

I put brand new viton seals on myself in March. They are not coming up off the guides, from spring interference. Still in position.

I have no idea what my guide clearance is, but I would ASSUME that the porter would check that, at re assembly. LAST summer I had no such problems, although I have upgraded cam, intake and of course the CNC porting. Not to mention a refresh with Total Seal gapless rings(top ring gapless).

All I know valve-wise is they are Ferrea valves.

I would love to try a PCV system, but not sure which one...and no place on my HP950 to run it. I did drill my Super Victor for a vacuum port(to adjust idle mixture), if that would help.

I don't "race" the car, but It gets to the track every year(exept this year). Didn't have a PCV in it's previous life. At that time I was in the 510HP range, according to the dyno.

I'm gonna try and figure out everything I need for a PCV system and give it a shot, Rusty. I know you know your sh*t, and yes. You did mention it earlier. I never saw the diagram, though. That helps. Glad you jumped in.

I have this sickening feeling I could buy(credit card) a nice pair of fully ported Eddy's.....get 'em on, and have the same friggin problem. My luck runs that way.

So Number 1 on the list: PCV.

Any thoughts on the reversion thing? I am running a pretty big cam...
 
Ima gonna take a guess here. Check your plenum floor and the underside of the carb baseplate. Wipe them gently with tissue paper. Actually blot them.Do this after a good, warm, run.If the blotted tissues come up oil-less, its not a reversion thing.
That leaves just three possibilities; Oil is passing through the seals or around the seals. Or the intake is leaking.
Since your valley is pretty much divorced from the runners, it's hard to imagine a valley leak, other than a flange gasket/milling mismatch. And that would require all 8 ports to be sucking oil.
Since you have adequate ventilation with breathers, I doubt the crankcase is forcing that oil through the seals.
So that kinda leaves ....around. Or perforation.
Well there is another possibility. If you spend a lot of time in engine-braking mode, with your 3% leakdown and gapless rings, I suppose it could be possible to pump that oil from off the cylinder walls up through the open intakes during the late closing intake period. This oil could condense in the intake and run down hill and end up there on the back of closed intakes,and it could run back into the cylinders after shut down. This would leave the runners slightly wet shortly after shutdown, but nearly dry, next morning. Hence the tissue-blot test.
I should mention that with the lack of a PCV, this diagnostic should actually be easier, since that system is not masking the symptoms with its own vapor return trail. And if you install a PCV system without solving this first, then that system will just end up putting the oil into the mufflers.
Have you performed a crankcase vacuum test, to prove that there is no vacuum in there? I know that you said the intake was tight as a drum,And it is very hard to imagine a gasket leak, but I have to ask.I also dont see any vacuum lines sourced off the intake; no booster, no vacuum advance, nada. Is that correct? And the rings were installed topside up, so they're scrapping oil down?And the oil return holes in the oil-ring grooves were open?
Anyway, I'm grasping.

BTW; 195psi and 3% are some really good numbers.
 
I put brand new viton seals on myself in March. They are not coming up off the guides, from spring interference. Still in position.
That only means that the seals are staying put; they typically leak where the stems go through, so they can be damaged and leaking despite staying in place. Pulling valves down through them sometimes cuts into the seal edges of there is a sharp edge on the keeper groove(s).

I have my new heads in the shop for a concentricity check and the shop guy just yanked a valve or 2 out as we were talking; my first thoughts were "Hey, take it easy buddy! Glad I put lube on those. Hmmm, I still may want new seals now...."

Just one possible factor for you to consider.
 
Add PCV valve and I would replace the intake valve guide seals using the plastic stem cover. The stem cover comes with the OEM FelPro valve seal set. You can also wrap the stem with tape before pushing a new seal on.
If you have an old valve cover you can also cut the top off and use it to check for oil flooding with the engine running.
 
I wouldn't think the cnc machine took out a little too much in the runners ???
 
Usually there is a large port on the back of the carb base to hook up a pcv hose to...

if not there is usually a hole with a pipe plug in the rear of the intake manifold that you can remove the plug and install a nipple and plumb a hose for PCV.
 
I wouldn't think the cnc machine took out a little too much in the runners ???


Also you must run some sort of crankcase evacuation system, PCV, pan evacs, vacuum pump.
You can order a new baseplate from BLP WITH the PCV port in it. Drilling a hole in the plenum won't do the PCV system any good.



More than likely there are cracks from porting. Have the heads pressure tested and see what you get.

Also, find a shop that uses a vacuum source to put a vaccuum on the intake ports. If it doesn't pull the full gauge you can bet it is cracked
 
Hi AJ. Rings were installed correctly. File fit, clocked right. All done according to Total Seal instructions.

Right. No booster, no vac lines, no vac advance. No mechanical for that matter. Distrib locked at 33 degrees.

I will check the baseplate and plenum floor tomorrow after a little blast down the road. I did check crankase and actuually have pressure. After 3 PSI I pulled the dipstick plug.

I was originally planning to run header evacs with this motor, but a few guys talked me out of it since I am running muffs.

The comp test and leakdown were done warm, of course....and leaked it down only at TDC, but I was very happy with those numbers, too.

Side note: I DO have a pair of valve cover with tops cut off. Put them on, primed oil pump with a 2500 RPM drill, and found that the heads are not flooding. Seems like a normal amount of oil there. My oil does appear really black...
 
How in the world can you be making crankcase pressure, with two breathers?!
I would take those breathers apart and check for 1-way valves.
Were those breathers on the last motor-that ran fine?
or are those new to this engine?

Or was that pressure test run with the engine sealed? In which case..Color me red.

I ran evacs and muffs on a mild 360. They worked really well. Too well! I ran them straight off the baffled valve covers, and at higher rpms they pulled oil right through, and sent it out the dual 3inch tailpipes. Rather than build a better oil-separator, I went back to the pcv system.

To do a topend oiling test,you know about clocking the cam,differently for each side, right?

Black oil is part of the reason to run a PCV system. But its usually a symptom of; fat carburetion in one or more circuits,driving style,driving cycles,engine running-temp, intake temp, weak ignition, you know , all that tuning stuff.
 
More than likely there are cracks from porting. Have the heads pressure tested and see what you get.

Also, find a shop that uses a vacuum source to put a vaccuum on the intake ports. If it doesn't pull the full gauge you can bet it is cracked

This is more than likely your problem according to mike at mrl eddy heads that are CNC ported can get really thin in places and can suck oil or hairline crack and suck oil . I'm going through the same thing as you at the moment .
 
All summer I thought my intake was sucking oil from the valley, and it probably never was...So, intake is sealed like a drum...

Wait a minute. Why do you say it is sealed like a drum and the intake was probably never sucking oil? I thought you said in another thread the intake gaskets were oil soaked at the bottom. What are you seeing now? Provided you've pulled the intake again, are you seeing an imprint in the gasket from the manifold 360 degrees around the intake port or not?

This still looks like an intake manifold sealing problem to me. You are either seeing an imprint in the gasket and oil soaking of that gasket or you are not. When I had this problem, it looked identical to what you see. I saw oil above the intake valve inside the port just as you do. When I corrected the intake interference at the china rails and used an adhesive around the intake port gasket area, the problem was gone.

Again, are you seeing an imprint?
 
breather holes plugged, AJ. I followed your instructions!

Not Eddy heads. Indy/RHS

I guess I meant "never was sucking oil" THIS time. Intaked been off at least 3 times. Finally had it cut correctly and believe me, it's sealed THIS time. I think originally it may have showed oil soaked gaskets, but probably was only half the problem. I've been chasing this since my first drive in the car in ....April, maybe?

Saw no signs of this off the dyno. Plugs looked great, etc...

Once the actual street driving began, the problem began.

Like I said. First order of bussines is an entire PCV system. We'll see what that does.
 
I guess I meant "never was sucking oil" THIS time. Intaked been off at least 3 times. Finally had it cut correctly and believe me, it's sealed THIS time. I think originally it may have showed oil soaked gaskets, but probably was only half the problem.

So, are you currently seeing an imprint?
 
PCV....PCV.....PCV......

























































did I mention PCV? One of my 340 cars I owned many lifetimes ago had a fresh built motor by a very reputable shop. Car owner installed a road tube in place of a PCV system. Car absolutely guzzled oil. Found the car in Auto Trader for damn near nothing. Went to look at it, owner was selling because of the oil consumption. Could not help but notice all the oil one the bottom of the car....and the road tube. Needless to say I bought it, put a PCV system in it.....burned 0 oil afterwards...
 
Yeah that road-draft tube was a pretty good system in it's entirety. But you just cant retrofit the half of it and not expect the airflow under the car to suck the oil right outta the engine. There was a vapor separator inside the engine, under the intake.And the end of the tube was cut at an angle, and slammed into a low-pressure area.It worked great, right up until the EPA guys wrote laws.
 
Also, whichever valve cover breather you leave on needs to be plumbed to the air cleaner to complete the PCV system. Hardly anyone does that, but it is part of the PCV system and it does not operate correctly without it. I am pretty sure I posted this before, but here it is again.

Thank You, Rusty! Ever since I heard of PCV valves I've been looking for exactly this. Now I get it!
 
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