Best ifs kit? rms, hdk, gt suspension, or magnum force?

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I spoke with Carl today from GTS, very knowledgeable, very impressed with all the insight to front end geometry, I think this is the route to go, I'm very impressed.
 
67autocross said:
I'm comparing the cost of doing a complete front end rebuild using all new parts as well as installing say all the Hotchkis or firm feel parts, good shocks, big torsion bars and one of those borgeson steering boxes, the price would add up similar to the after market k member.
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dukeboy_318 said:
hmm, now you have me curious. time for math.

Firm feel, rebuilt kits range from 1600 to 3400 depending on what you want/get

Hotchkis, starts at 2400 not including T-bars. or brakes


yeah, you be right. by the time you'd upgrade similarly, youre gonna be about the same

Either way, you're gonna spend a couple grand. I guess it depends ultimately on what you want out of that money.
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Although I've followed this thread because I really do like reading about the different suspension builders and set ups, I've stayed out of it so far because I know I'm probably considered one of those "torsion bar purists" mentioned earlier. But, since the question was asked about the cost of setting up a "comparable" torsion bar suspension, here's my .02 on the pricing only. Most of these prices should be pretty accurate, some of them are a few months old-

1.12" Firm Feel torsion bars: $355
Tubular UCA’s (PST, FFI, etc): $350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385): $280
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S): $50
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621): $15
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings): $135

Hellwig tubular front sway bar #55905: $180

Bilstein RCD shocks (front only): $220

Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610

Tie rod ends (Moog): $60
Pitman and idler (Moog): $115
lower ball joints (Moog): $90

Total (without brakes) $2,460

So that should be a fairly accurate estimate for everything to be "new", assuming you already had '73+ spindles, LCA's, and '73 disk brakes to work with.

If you didn't-you could add Dr. Diff's 10.95" brake kit, which includes the '73 up style spindles and 10.95" disk set up (you'd still need a set of stock LCA's, but who doesn't have those?)

Dr. Diff's 10.95" rotor kit: $445

So, total with stock brakes and '73+ spindles is $2,905

So, with stock 10.95" disk brakes that's still $395 cheaper than the GTS set up and $845 less than the HDK. And that's a pretty well set up torsion bar suspended car.
 
72bluNblu said:
Although I've followed this thread because I really do like reading about the different suspension builders and set ups, I've stayed out of it so far because I know I'm probably considered one of those "torsion bar purists" mentioned earlier. But, since the question was asked about the cost of setting up a "comparable" torsion bar suspension, here's my .02 on the pricing only. Most of these prices should be pretty accurate, some of them are a few months old-

1.12" Firm Feel torsion bars: $355
Tubular UCA’s (PST, FFI, etc): $350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385): $280
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S): $50
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621): $15
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings): $135

Hellwig tubular front sway bar #55905: $180

Bilstein RCD shocks (front only): $220

Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610

Tie rod ends (Moog): $60
Pitman and idler (Moog): $115
lower ball joints (Moog): $90

Total (without brakes) $2,460

So that should be a fairly accurate estimate for everything to be "new", assuming you already had '73+ spindles, LCA's, and '73 disk brakes to work with.

If you didn't-you could add Dr. Diff's 10.95" brake kit, which includes the '73 up style spindles and 10.95" disk set up (you'd still need a set of stock LCA's, but who doesn't have those?)

Dr. Diff's 10.95" rotor kit: $445

So, total with stock brakes and '73+ spindles is $2,905

So, with stock 10.95" disk brakes that's still $395 cheaper than the GTS set up and $845 less than the HDK. And that's a pretty well set up torsion bar suspended car.
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Awesome break down. Either way you go is gonna cost some coin.
 
72bluNblu said:
Although I've followed this thread because I really do like reading about the different suspension builders and set ups, I've stayed out of it so far because I know I'm probably considered one of those "torsion bar purists" mentioned earlier. But, since the question was asked about the cost of setting up a "comparable" torsion bar suspension, here's my .02 on the pricing only. Most of these prices should be pretty accurate, some of them are a few months old-

1.12" Firm Feel torsion bars: $355
Tubular UCA’s (PST, FFI, etc): $350
Adjustable strut rods (PST SR 14385): $280
Solid tie rod sleeves (PST SAS 440S): $50
LCA boxing plate (PST LCAPLTMOP621): $15
Greasable LCA pins (FFI w bushings): $135

Hellwig tubular front sway bar #55905: $180




Bilstein RCD shocks (front only): $220

Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610

Tie rod ends (Moog): $60
Pitman and idler (Moog): $115
lower ball joints (Moog): $90

Total (without brakes) $2,460

So that should be a fairly accurate estimate for everything to be "new", assuming you already had '73+ spindles, LCA's, and '73 disk brakes to work with.

If you didn't-you could add Dr. Diff's 10.95" brake kit, which includes the '73 up style spindles and 10.95" disk set up (you'd still need a set of stock LCA's, but who doesn't have those?)

Dr. Diff's 10.95" rotor kit: $445

So, total with stock brakes and '73+ spindles is $2,905

So, with stock 10.95" disk brakes that's still $395 cheaper than the GTS set up and $845 less than the HDK. And that's a pretty well set up torsion bar suspended car.
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If you add the Borgeson box and a slightly better front shock ( fox, QA1, Viking ) I feel that you can't make the argument that the stock front end is any cheaper when built to a high level. I have a car with a built stock style front end and and one with an RMS and I when I install the Borgeson box in it it will have as much money in the front end as the RMS car.
For the rear suspension I would say you could save $1000-1200 keeping the leaf springs over say doing a street lynx system, but you have really no adjustably with the leaf set up compared to the coil over setup.
On another note 72Blu, I always enjoy your posts and the input that you provide to this site, thank you for that!
 
I say RMS but it is expensive, everyone who has purchased a HDK has nothing but good things to say so the choice is yours.
 
dukeboy_318 said:
Awesome break down. Either way you go is gonna cost some coin.
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I still feel like the stock style steering Box with pitman arm, drag link, idler arm, inner and outer tie rod ends are going to feel less precise then a steering rack with only end link. There is also the longevity aspect. With more moving joints the stock system is going to loosen up and have more "slop" then the rack will. I had my car set up with the best of the best stock upgraded stock style suspension and it was a big improvement over the old worn out stuff but still not even close to how tight,precise and confidence inspiring as my new HDk setup. I know everyone has there own opinions but I literally did both systems to the extreme and I have found myself wondering why I didn't make the switch so much sooner.

Then there are the other benefits:

Outstanding header clearance

Easy to find replacement parts. The mustang II front suspension is the single most used system in the aftermarket.

Oil pan choices are endless

The added room makes a big block dart easy to work with and maintain
 
76orangewagon said:
Just wait your going to get the die hard pipe in and tell you there all a waste of money and a stock setup can be just as good, which is not what you asked but it happens over and over every time this question is asked, then comes the name calling and were all off the original subject. Good luck.
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See stock stuff had to get brought up yet again.......The OP didn't ask that, yet someone always feel the need to take any opportunity to throw there off topic opinion in there. This is why I quit posting my build on FABO....it's really going down hill fast.
 
76orangewagon said:
. This is why I quit posting my build on FABO....it's really going down hill fast.
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DONT DO THAT?! I'm a huge fan of your build, I literally have it set to instant notification for every single post. I guess I'm stalking your build hahaha :prayer::prayer:
 
younggun2.0 said:
I still feel like the stock style steering Box with pitman arm, drag link, idler arm, inner and outer tie rod ends are going to feel less precise then a steering rack with only end link. There is also the longevity aspect. With more moving joints the stock system is going to loosen up and have more "slop" then the rack will. I had my car set up with the best of the best stock upgraded stock style suspension and it was a big improvement over the old worn out stuff but still not even close to how tight,precise and confidence inspiring as my new HDk setup. I know everyone has there own opinions but I literally did both systems to the extreme and I have found myself wondering why I didn't make the switch so much sooner.

Then there are the other benefits:

Outstanding header clearance

Easy to find replacement parts. The mustang II front suspension is the single most used system in the aftermarket.

Oil pan choices are endless

The added room makes a big block dart easy to work with and maintain
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I agree, I just wasn't gonna turn the thread into stock vs aftermarket debate.....
 
dukeboy_318 said:
I agree, I just wasn't gonna turn the thread into stock vs aftermarket debate.....
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Sorry about that....I just laugh when these guys jump in and act like you can do a world beater stock front end and act like it's almost free. I have cars with both and so does a guy I hang out with, both of us agree that the after market rack setups are as good in any area as a factory style one and better in a bunch of other areas.
I'll put it this way, while I love my car with the build torsion bar front end, never in this life time would I take my other car with the RMS suspension and put a stock type front back into it. After you spend a day trying to make a 1.20" torsion bar fit into a car with TTI headers and the bars hits the headers on both sides you really come to appreciate the coil over front end.
 
76orangewagon said:
See stock stuff had to get brought up yet again.......The OP didn't ask that, yet someone always feel the need to take any opportunity to throw there off topic opinion in there. This is why I quit posting my build on FABO....it's really going down hill fast.
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The stock stuff was brought up already. I posted to show a price break down, because really the comparison between the torsion bar suspension and the coilover suspensions WILL ALWAYS be there. It's a natural comparison. It's not an attack on coilover suspensions, and although the OP didn't bring it up, it was brought up already. I'm just trying to keep things accurate.

There's no need to turn this thread into a stock vs aftermarket thread, although that's a bit of a misnomer because there's nothing stock about my torsion bar suspension, or the suspension I posted really. There are plenty of stock vs aftermarket threads already, so we don't have the debate "which one is better" here at all.

As far as the comparison goes at all- ALL suspension systems are a trade off. It is simply the nature of suspension design. Regardless of the suspension system, each one has advantages and disadvantages. If going coilover has more advantages for how you're using the car, then do it. If it doesn't, then don't. It's as simple as that.

No one system is going to be universally "better". We all build our cars differently, use our cars differently, and we all have different driving habits. That means the suspension set up that's best for me, or you, wouldn't necessarily be the best system for someone else.

That's no reason to stop posting on your thread. I get plenty of flack on mine too, as I mentioned already, there's pretty much nothing stock about it. And I love your build, I just don't have that kind of coin. Seriously, it's one of my favorite builds on the site. :thumbup:

67autocross said:
If you add the Borgeson box and a slightly better front shock ( fox, QA1, Viking ) I feel that you can't make the argument that the stock front end is any cheaper when built to a high level. I have a car with a built stock style front end and and one with an RMS and I when I install the Borgeson box in it it will have as much money in the front end as the RMS car.
For the rear suspension I would say you could save $1000-1200 keeping the leaf springs over say doing a street lynx system, but you have really no adjustably with the leaf set up compared to the coil over setup.
On another note 72Blu, I always enjoy your posts and the input that you provide to this site, thank you for that!
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This comes down to options though. You can get the coilover systems with better shocks too, and they'll cost more. If you add a power rack instead of a manual rack, they cost more. If you buy the RMS set up, it costs more. My point was to show a fairly basic, in the ballpark upgraded torsion bar suspension, and not overwhelm the thread with cost comparisons for every possible combination.

I'll update my build thread with a breakdown of my front suspension later. I can tell you that I have better components than the breakdown above, and I'm pretty sure I still have less than $3k into it because of the parts I've bought 2nd hand or slightly used.
 
72bluNblu said:
The stock stuff was brought up already. I posted to show a price break down, because really the comparison between the torsion bar suspension and the coilover suspensions WILL ALWAYS be there. It's a natural comparison. It's not an attack on coilover suspensions, and although the OP didn't bring it up, it was brought up already. I'm just trying to keep things accurate.

There's no need to turn this thread into a stock vs aftermarket thread, although that's a bit of a misnomer because there's nothing stock about my torsion bar suspension, or the suspension I posted really. There are plenty of stock vs aftermarket threads already, so we don't have the debate "which one is better" here at all.

As far as the comparison goes at all- ALL suspension systems are a trade off. It is simply the nature of suspension design. Regardless of the suspension system, each one has advantages and disadvantages. If going coilover has more advantages for how you're using the car, then do it. If it doesn't, then don't. It's as simple as that.

No one system is going to be universally "better". We all build our cars differently, use our cars differently, and we all have different driving habits. That means the suspension set up that's best for me, or you, wouldn't necessarily be the best system for someone else.

That's no reason to stop posting on your thread. I get plenty of flack on mine too, as I mentioned already, there's pretty much nothing stock about it. And I love your build, I just don't have that kind of coin. Seriously, it's one of my favorite builds on the site. :thumbup:



This comes down to options though. You can get the coilover systems with better shocks too, and they'll cost more. If you add a power rack instead of a manual rack, they cost more. If you buy the RMS set up, it costs more. My point was to show a fairly basic, in the ballpark upgraded torsion bar suspension, and not overwhelm the thread with cost comparisons for every possible combination.

I'll update my build thread with a breakdown of my front suspension later. I can tell you that I have better components than the breakdown above, and I'm pretty sure I still have less than $3k into it because of the parts I've bought 2nd hand or slightly used.
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I'm just going by what it cost me to build them, I know 100% from building a few of these cars that if you open up the Hotchkis or Firm feel catalogue and buy all the parts or if you purchase one of the IFS kits there is not a lot of price difference.
When someone is building a car from the ground up I always try and convince them to install one of the rack front ends, they really don't have a down side unless you are doing some type of restoration or you are racing in some class that does not allow aftermarket suspension.
 
After looking at these aftermarket suspensions very thoroughly, I made the choice of the GTS, it seems to know doubt be the strongest, and his geometry looks superb, good camber gain, amazing bump steer, and great suspension travel, also found out his b/e body kits have 7 inches of travel, obviously more room toe get a longer coil over in, and his a bodies just shy of 6. Very excited for this, and I really think this is going to give every kit out there a big run for their money in all areas!
 
440 dart. said:
...his geometry looks superb, good camber gain, amazing bump steer, and great suspension travel, also found out his b/e body kits have 7 inches of travel, obviously more room toe get a longer coil over in, and his a bodies just shy of 6.
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where is this listed??? Is there a website? I haven't seen one picture of one of these in use or any published specs. I'd be calling b.s. until I heard some ride and drive reports online from independent users. jmho before I spent any money.
 
Spun Bearing said:
where is this listed??? Is there a website? I haven't seen one picture of one of these in use or any published specs. I'd be calling b.s. until I heard some ride and drive reports online from independent users. jmho before I spent any money.
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I talked to him personally, and also spoke with a few guys on fb who are running his system, look them up. Dan yohe, from iowa, Dan koscis, from Pittsburg who was so impressed he's ordering a third, Eric lyndes from Ohio, those guys all absolutely love it and said they've been around all the aftermarket kits, they like Gts the best, now I realize it's all based off personal preference, 3 degrees of camber gain is pretty good, and 1/16 total of bumpsteer is awesome, I'm going off what customers have said, granted he's just starting out, but hell, when denny, bill, and others first started, they didn't have 100 on the road the first day, it took time, and from my understanding, denny just got his site up not long ago (not bashing that whatsoever) so you expect a newcomer to be above and beyond everyone else right after he goes public with his design? Come on, you obviously don't understand how a business starts and grows.
 
Spun Bearing said:
where is this listed??? Is there a website? I haven't seen one picture of one of these in use or any published specs. I'd be calling b.s. until I heard some ride and drive reports online from independent users. jmho before I spent any money.
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Buy yourself a plane ticket, come to my place and measure it for yourself if you'd like. Granted mine isn't near road ready yet, you can at least get the measurements that you want. :burnout: course until it's on the road, I can't attest to ride quality
 
Spun Bearing said:
where is this listed??? Is there a website? I haven't seen one picture of one of these in use or any published specs. I'd be calling b.s. until I heard some ride and drive reports online from independent users. jmho before I spent any money.
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And secondly, I haven't seen a single spec from denny other than track width, I've searched his site, this forum, and since you've been following so close, how many times did I ask him about bumpsteer? I couldn't even get to asking other questions because I couldn't get the first one answered! This is why I'm already sick of this forum, I asked simple questions, and I get all sorts of opinions non related, are you running hdk, rms, gts, or another brand, maybe you should look at my original post! I didn't ask for someone to be my financial planner, and to give me advice how to spend my money, I asked how these kits handled, and out of the who knows how many comments from people only a couple said they're views on performance
 
Spun Bearing said:
where is this listed??? Is there a website? I haven't seen one picture of one of these in use or any published specs. I'd be calling b.s. until I heard some ride and drive reports online from independent users. jmho before I spent any money.
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Also...hemidenny nor RMS have their respective specs posted on their website either....or at least I cant find them. So where's those specs
 
Spun Bearing said:
where is this listed??? Is there a website? I haven't seen one picture of one of these in use or any published specs. I'd be calling b.s. until I heard some ride and drive reports online from independent users. jmho before I spent any money.
Click to expand...

And secondly, I haven't seen a single spec from denny other than track width, I've searched his site, this forum, and since you've been following so close, how many times did I ask him about bumpsteer? I couldn't even get to asking other questions because I couldn't get the first one answered! This is why I'm already sick of this forum, I asked simple questions, and I get all sorts of opinions non related, are you running hdk, rms, gts, or another brand, maybe you should look at my original post! I didn't ask for someone to be my financial planner, and to give me advice how to spend my money, I asked how these kits handled, and out of the who knows how many comments from people only a couple said they're views on performance
 
440 dart. said:
And secondly, I haven't seen a single spec from denny other than track width, I've searched his site, this forum, and since you've been following so close, how many times did I ask him about bumpsteer?
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Ive asked at least twice for specs from him on this thread along myself......

Yet a certain individual or two on here want to ignore that....
 
you mean this (Eric Lyndes) guy in Ohio?????...

got news for you....that is an RMS/ AlterK...I can see the steering crossbar and the RMS style anti-sway bar mount in the photo of his car (on fb /August 24)

just say'n
 
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